Is there really a Calvinistic resurgence?

[quantumfaith]

Not at all. But since you brought it up, I think it is undermining your view of Sovereignty. I have no problem with this at all.

Sin must have originated in the allowing plan of God to be so. None of it makes God any less God and Glorious than He is. None of it out of His control or will.

I wonder would there had ever been evil or sin without there ever being a created world, including all principalities and powers created? Surely not.

- Peace

I do not think God "decreed" evil and sin. It is patently obvious that He "allowed" it by the fact that it exists. I also think that evil and sin is "necessary" as Winman stated sometime back because the creation of creatures with any amount of free will would by necessity include the option of evil, sin and rebellion. I DO understand the "reformation" view that this was "decreed" for the ultimate glory of God, but I respectfully do not share that perspective. All of us, no matter our theological position, MOST CERTAINLY agree that God is unquestionably characterized by asiety.

 

[preacher4truth]

I do not think God "decreed" evil and sin. It is patently obvious that He "allowed" it by the fact that it exists. I also think that evil and sin is "necessary" as Winman stated sometime back because the creation of creatures with any amount of free will would by necessity include the option of evil, sin and rebellion. I DO understand the "reformation" view that this was "decreed" for the ultimate glory of God, but I respectfully do not share that perspective. All of us, no matter our theological position, MOST CERTAINLY agree that God is unquestionably characterized by asiety.

I understand. Keep in mind I have not learned these or thought of these things due to any theological thought or stream such as DoG. Just looking at these things. We walk a fine line, His Ways are past finding out for sure.

I've started another thread along these lines. I am interested in knowing and searching the ways of God and in seeing Him in light of all He is, so we look at all these things in that endeavor. Genesis 33 really got me to thinking about this, not anything from a reformed theology. To be honest, I've not read a whole lot of reformed works.

- Peace

 

[Luke2427]

First, I said "most if not all," I didn't say everyone. Second, to be "self-taught" with the help of the HS while reading and studying on one's own without a present living teacher isn't typically equated to "snuffing scholarship."

Yea, and I have on multiple occasions said that that is acceptable (particularly if that is literally the best that person can do in his circumstances). Winman's position is that he just needs the Holy Ghost and the Bible. Though he may read a few Christian writers, he believes they are not needful (in order to communicate with authority the deep things of God).

You mean like saying things about God that bring reproach upon his Holiness, such as:

"Satan did it [evil] - but so did God." - Luke

"God is DOING these things [evil]. But God is not evil in doing them because his motive is pure and right." -Luke

"God willed the most horrible sin of all time"- Luke

"God willed for evil" -Luke

"God does not just allow these [evil] things" -Luke

The brackets make you a liar here Skandelon.

I have said NO LESS than a dozen times to you alone in those VERY exchanges that God CANNOT do evil.

Though I know what brackets mean (that the author of the quote didn't actually say the word in the bracket) you still twist the truth by them in two ways:

1- You know there are people who are not going to KNOW that I did not say that by your brackets.

2- The word in the brackets is suppoed to represent what the author meant. Since yours does not- your brackets are lies.

I NEVER said God doing the deed of throwing Joseph in the pit or afflicting Job was evil. Not one time. It was not.

Satan's part in those deeds WAS evil.

That God had a part in those deeds is biblically UNDENIABLE. That God himself said he was doing them is UNDENIABLE. But that God's part in them was not evil is UNDENIABLE as well.

This is about the tenth time you have used this to misrepresent me. The next time you do it I will request a meeting with and at the convenience of the administrators and owners to talk about this and some other things.

I expect an apology.

 

[Skandelon]

Not at all. But since you brought it up, I think it is undermining your view of Sovereignty. I have no problem with this at all.

Sin must have originated in the allowing plan of God to be so.

I'm still not sure what your view actually is. What is the "allowing plan of God?" I affirm that God allowed evil and did not originate it. I believe evil originated in Satan, not God. Do you agree or not?

 

[Skandelon]

Yea, and I have on multiple occasions said that that is acceptable (particularly if that is literally the best that person can do in his circumstances). Winman's position is that he just needs the Holy Ghost and the Bible. Though he may read a few Christian writers, he believes they are not needful (in order to communicate with authority the deep things of God).

The brackets make you a liar here Skandelon.

I have said NO LESS than a dozen times to you alone in those VERY exchanges that God CANNOT do evil.

I directly quote you IN CONTEXT of talking about the "ORIGIN OF EVIL" and you call me a liar? Really?

Are you claiming that you weren't talking about "evil" in these quotes? Because you do know those posts are still there for all of us to read, right? Are you sure you want to still call me a liar and break the rules of this board?

So, please tell us, what "it" and "things" were if they were not the "evil" that we were debating about the origin of, ok? We are waiting for an explanation to what else you were referring.

I NEVER said God doing the deed of throwing Joseph in the pit or afflicting Job was evil. Not one time. It was not.

Did I EVER claim you did say such? No. I merely quoted your exact words in context of our discussion about the origin of evil. I know you don't believe God did the throwing, but my point in providing these quotes was to show that one MUST be careful speaking about the nature of God so as not to malign His holiness. I believe these are examples of one not being careful with his words.

Satan's part in those deeds WAS evil.

That God had a part in those deeds is biblically UNDENIABLE. That God himself said he was doing them is UNDENIABLE. But that God's part in them was not evil is UNDENIABLE as well.

You've just restated what you believe and what you called me a liar for quoting. Thanks.

You just stated "God himself said he was doing them [evil deeds] is UNDENIABLE. But that God's part in them [evil deeds] was not evil is UNDENIABLE."

You think by not calling the deeds "evil" that makes them so, but the deeds haven't changed, only the person "doing" them has changed. The creeds and confessions you quote from argue that God DOES NOT do the deeds at all, while you argue that God does do them but they aren't really evil because God's motive is good. Which is it?

 

[Van]

Discussing evil without defining it is meaningless. If something goes against my well being I consider it evil. But, if acting lawfully as a policeman, I arrest someone, they would call my actions evil, i.e against their well being, but I would not. So what is evil depends on the point of view. If God brings calamity, those harmed would consider it evil, but if calamity serves God's purpose of helping people turn to God as a refuge, then the calamity would not be evil from God's perspective. So when God does something that those affected consider evil, it might not be evil from God's point of view.

Now another idea of evil is non-truth, so whatever is false is evil. God is truth, and therefore anything that misses the mark is in a sense evil.

Bottom line, God does things those affected consider evil but they are not evil from God's perspective. God allows others to do evil, not because He desires evil, but because He desires men to make automous choices, whether in accord with the will of God or not.

Now lets apply this perspective to the garden. God allowed Satan to tempt Eve. Does the Bible spell out what was God's purpose? No. But we can speculate He had a purpose, and so allowing Satan to tempt Eve was not evil from God's perspective.

 

[preacher4truth]

Quantumfaith, in my reply to you above in this thread, I meant Exodus 33, not Genesis 33. Specifically verses 12-23. My apologies.

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm still not sure what your view actually is. What is the "allowing plan of God?" I affirm that God allowed evil and did not originate it. I believe evil originated in Satan, not God. Do you agree or not?

Skan, I will be honest here and frank.

I thought I had been very clear on my view. As a matter of fact, I contend that I have. You're just not getting something that you desire to hear. I think you lie in wait to hear something. What is going on here truly is you desire for a statement that you can use against me, thus your attempt to make "predestine/cause" the same thing when they are not (by your putting the slash in between you feel like if I say God predestines sin, then I'm automatically guilty of saying He caused it).

You have to keep in mind that I'm probably a little more keen on being bamboozled by anyone into making statements than what you figure. I sincerely think this is your objective. My points are and have been quite clear, and whatever you derive from these is out of my control.

I gather that you would like me to say God causes sin, yes? It's not going to happen.

Furthermore, after reviewing Luke2427s rebuttal of your quotes on him, I contend that is not what he meant and there is a context to it, and give him the benefit of the doubt, as I have all along. I can't see him defending himself for nought. He believes he was misrepresented and I will watch this unfold.

- Peace

 

[Skandelon]

Of course I don't want you to say that God caused evil, as Luke obviously did whether he intended to or not. I DON'T want you to say or believe such things and I'm attempting to show you that to be a Calvinist you don't need to take it that far.

Just answer the question, or point me to the post where you already answered it.

If evil originated/began in Satan, not God, then do you believe God was informed by Satan? In other words, did God at some point come to know of Satan's evil intent or did God create/originate/begin that evil intent?

I believe God made Satan a free moral creature, thus with the ability to originate intent and I'm asking you what you believe on this subject. If you don't know, that's cool. Luke said he didn't know and that was just a mystery. That is fine. I just want to know where you stand on the subject.

 

[DHK]

if I say God predestines sin, then I'm automatically guilty of saying He caused it).

That is the logical conclusion. It can't be avoided.

I gather that you would like me to say God causes sin, yes? It's not going to happen.

Predestined but not caused? Why one but not the other, especially if there is a denial of God's permissive will. Then predestined and caused become the same thing. If one predestined something to happen he caused it to happen. There is no way around that.

 

[preacher4truth]

Of course I don't want you to say that God caused evil, as Luke obviously did whether he intended to or not. I DON'T want you to say or believe such things and I'm attempting to show you that to be a Calvinist you don't need to take it that far.

Just answer the question, or point me to the post where you already answered it.

If evil originated/began in Satan, not God, then do you believe God was informed by Satan? In other words, did God at some point come to know of Satan's evil intent or did God create/originate/begin that evil intent?

I believe God made Satan a free moral creature, thus with the ability to originate intent and I'm asking you what you believe on this subject. If you don't know, that's cool. Luke said he didn't know and that was just a mystery. That is fine. I just want to know where you stand on the subject.

There is a fine line here, and His ways are past finding out.

I believe He created Satan, the Kosmos, man, knowing full well the sin that this would cause and allow, yet He did all this according to His own purpose. What all of it means, the why, and all of that is beyond reason and again, His ways are past finding out. I believe He is immutable, Holy, and Just in all He is and all He has decreed. But, I stand in awe of this.

To behave as if we have it figured out on the other end of the spectrum (opposite of my above belief) in that some say what I say is a lie and incriminating, ("you make God the author of sin" and other foolish remarks) and to contend against my position, is to make pretense that oneself has found out His ways which cannot be found out. I also believe to say He didn't create and full well know all this is a misnomer, and, false teaching along this line turn a blind eye to reality imo.

- Peace

 

[preacher4truth]

That is the logical conclusion. It can't be avoided.

Predestined but not caused? Why one but not the other, especially if there is a denial of God's permissive will. Then predestined and caused become the same thing. If one predestined something to happen he caused it to happen. There is no way around that.

Not at all.

It's much deeper than this casual, frivolous and perfunctorious view.

 

[Benjamin]

I think anyone who logicaly or by methods of rationalizing attributes evil to God has gone way beyond a practical defense of Calvinism and into heresy, they should be banned from this board.

 

[DHK]

Not at all.

It's much deeper than this casual, frivolous and perfunctorious view.

Explain how predestined and caused are different.
If God predestined event A to happen, then did he not cause event A to happen? What is the difference?

 

[preacher4truth]

Explain how predestined and caused are different.
If God predestined event A to happen, then did he not cause event A to happen? What is the difference?

Go define them for yourself then you'll perhaps have the answer you desire?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I think anyone who logicaly or by methods of rationalizing attributes evil to God has gone way beyond a practical defense of Calvinism and into heresy, they should be banned from this board.

The last part of your statement Benjamin is only your opinion & you do know everyone has one, right

Regarding the 1st portion of your statement, the Scriptures declare that He does not even tempt - James i.13; His creatures to sin.

 

[DHK]

Go define them for yourself then you'll perhaps have the answer you desire?

Why do you start with a rude and unnecessary comment?
I don't need a dictionary. I asked for your definition; how you differentiated between the two words. A bit of respect would be in order here.

 

[preacher4truth]

Why do you start with a rude and unnecessary comment?
I don't need a dictionary. I asked for your definition; how you differentiated between the two words. A bit of respect would be in order here.

I made a suggestion.

Who cares what my definition is? What are the definitions? We're trying to be objective here, not subjective. Correct?

Not a thing rude about a suggestion.

 

[jbh28]

Explain how predestined and caused are different.
If God predestined event A to happen, then did he not cause event A to happen? What is the difference?

I'll answer in the form of a question.

Is the only way God can get something to happen that he has predestined is by directly causing it? I say no.

 

[Van]

This is the naked Calvinist defense, God predestines an outcome but does not cause the outcome. What is mind boggling to me is the assertion that Calvinism is growing in Christian fellowships. Somewhere near a third of all non-Catholics. I used to think I could prove something biblical to another believer, but no more. A "hyper-Calvinist says God predestines everything and therefore causes (directly or indirectly) everything for "God ordains whatsoever comes to pass." A mainstream Calvinist denies God causes everything even though God predestines every outcome. It does not matter to Calvinists that non-Calvinists say this is irrational, they simply chant God is beyond out understanding and repeat their view. It seems hopeless.