Is there really a Calvinistic resurgence?

[DHK]

This is the naked Calvinist defense, God predestines an outcome but does not cause the outcome. What is mind boggling to me...

I agree Van. They assert what they think is true, but cannot defend, hence P4T's reluctance to give any intelligent answer to the questions in my post.

 

[jbh28]

I agree Van. They assert what they think is true, but cannot defend, hence P4T's reluctance to give any intelligent answer to the questions in my post.

Again, instead of childish responses, answer my question. Does God have to force something to happen that he has determined to happen? If you say yes, it's up to you to show that's the only way that God can accomplish his decrees. I say no. God isn't required to force something to happen in order for something he has decreed to happen.

 

[DHK]

Again, instead of childish responses, answer my question. Does God have to force something to happen that he has determined to happen? If you say yes, it's up to you to show that's the only way that God can accomplish his decrees. I say no. God isn't required to force something to happen in order for something he has decreed to happen.

I didn't know you were directing this to me.
Does God have to force something to happen that he has determined to happen. No he doesn't. God is not bound by anything. Everything in this universe is under his control. That is what makes him completely sovereign. If he wants an event to happen he can use whatever means and/or circumstances he chooses.

 

[jbh28]

I didn't know you were directing this to me.

no prob

Does God have to force something to happen that he has determined to happen. No he doesn't. God is not bound by anything. Everything in this universe is under his control. That is what makes him completely sovereign. If he wants an event to happen he can use whatever means and/or circumstances he chooses.

I agree. That's what I have said and what Van mocks. God can determine something to happen, but doesn't have to force for it to happen.

I like your bolded part

 

[DHK]

no prob

I agree. That's what I have said and what Van mocks. God can determine something to happen, but doesn't have to force for it to happen.

I like your bolded part

He would choose those means IMO, where evil cannot be directly attributed to God. He allows men to sin (permissive will). But he never is the cause of it.

 

[jbh28]

He would choose those means IMO, where evil cannot be directly attributed to God. He allows men to sin (permissive will). But he never is the cause of it.

I would agree. God never causes nor is the author of sin. He uses sinful people and even used them sinning to accomplish his will. (the story of Joseph). Now, was it decreed/decided before hand that Joesph would go to Egypt. Of course. God was going to use Joseph being a leader in Egypt to help Israel.

 

[DHK]

I would agree. God never causes nor is the author of sin. He uses sinful people and even used them sinning to accomplish his will. (the story of Joseph). Now, was it decreed/decided before hand that Joesph would go to Egypt. Of course. God was going to use Joseph being a leader in Egypt to help Israel.

In order for God to accomplish his will, the nation of Israel would have to be in Egypt to come out of Egypt (the Exodus). God orchestrated those events by sending Joseph to Egypt. He created a set of circumstances that would get Joseph to Egypt. Joseph was given wisdom. He even had a gift of prophecy at a very early age. His righteous life, coupled with his favoritism from his father caused jealousy and even hatred from his brethren. That led to a chain of events (some of them very sinful) which put Joseph as a slave in Egypt.
God did not decree the actions of Joseph's brothers. Their sinful choices were their own. No matter how worked out in the end, one cannot trace this sin and betrayal back to God. God allowed it to happen and knew it would. He did not restrain their evil. He permitted it to happen and knew it would.

 

[jbh28]

In order for God to accomplish his will, the nation of Israel would have to be in Egypt to come out of Egypt (the Exodus). God orchestrated those events by sending Joseph to Egypt. He created a set of circumstances that would get Joseph to Egypt. Joseph was given wisdom. He even had a gift of prophecy at a very early age. His righteous life, coupled with his favoritism from his father caused jealousy and even hatred from his brethren. That led to a chain of events (some of them very sinful) which put Joseph as a slave in Egypt.

agree with you thus far

God did not decree the actions of Joseph's brothers. Their sinful choices were their own.

Here's where I'm going to disagree with you. He did decree for it to happen. He chose for it to happen. He didn't force it. The brothers choices were their own. I agree with you on that point. But that doesn't meant that it was decreed. See, God could have chosen another method of getting Joseph to Egypt, but He didn't. He chose to use the sin of the brothers go get Joseph to Egypt.

No matter how worked out in the end, one cannot trace this sin and betrayal back to God. God allowed it to happen and knew it would. He did not restrain their evil. He permitted it to happen and knew it would.

Yes, exactly. As I stated earlier, you are equating decree with cause. Decree is God choosing that it will happen, cause is the means by which it happens. God doesn't cause/force/be the author of the sin. He chooses to allow it to happen to accomplish His will. God is sovereign. He could have chosen another way, but decreed to allow the sin of the brothers to be the method of Joseph getting to Egypt.

Most of our disagreement is semantics. What your disagreement with me is you equating "decree" with "cause" which isn't the case.

 

[Luke2427]

I directly quote you IN CONTEXT of talking about the "ORIGIN OF EVIL" and you call me a liar? Really?

The BRACKETS, Skandelon, the BRACKETS make you a liar.

Are you claiming that you weren't talking about "evil" in these quotes?

I am talking about compatabalism now as I was then.

God afflicted Job and Joseph.

Satan afflicted Job and Joseph.

God's part was not evil.

This is SO simple.

Because you do know those posts are still there for all of us to read, right?

Then stop adding misrepresentations in brackets.

Pull them up.

So, please tell us, what "it" and "things" were if they were not the "evil" that we were debating about the origin of, ok?

DEEDS

for the thousandth time.

A deed is only evil if the heart that does it is evil.

God DID afflict Job but it was not evil because God's heart was pure and righteous- he did it for the RIGHT reason.

This is SO simple. Why can you not get this????

We are waiting for an explanation to what else you were referring.

You have the explanation above which is given for the thousandth time.

Did I EVER claim you did say such? No. I merely quoted your exact words

THIS IS THE LIE.

You had to add words in brackets that totally misrepresented my position.

in context of our discussion about the origin of evil. I know you don't believe God did the throwing, but my point in providing these quotes was to show that one MUST be careful speaking about the nature of God so as not to malign His holiness. I believe these are examples of one not being careful with his words.

They are the words of Edwards, Piper, Calvin and MANY other champions of the Reformed Faith.

You just stated "God himself said he was doing them [evil deeds] is UNDENIABLE. But that God's part in them [evil deeds] was not evil is UNDENIABLE."

Not EVIL deeds- just DEEDS. They were evil on the part of Satan and holy and righteous on the part of God.

That God DID them is irrefutable. NOTHING could be clearer in Scripture.

You think by not calling the deeds "evil" that makes them so, but the deeds haven't changed, only the person "doing" them has changed. The creeds and confessions you quote from argue that God DOES NOT do the deeds at all, while you argue that God does do them but they aren't really evil because God's motive is good. Which is it?

This is a lie. The creeds do not argue that. They argue rightly that God does not do EVIL.

 

[humblethinker]

Does God have to force something to happen that he has determined to happen? If you say yes, it's up to you to show that's the only way that God can accomplish his decrees. I say no. God isn't required to force something to happen in order for something he has decreed to happen.

Decree: an order usually having the force of law
Force: to make or cause especially through natural or logical necessity

Would it be the case that God forces men to be saved? If not then was it of someone/thing else's doing or influence?

 

[humblethinker]

A deed is only evil if the heart that does it is evil.

Interesting...

 

[quantumfaith]

Interesting...

I too had to pause when I read that, I don't "think" Luke is meaning what might be implied but I will continue to read to see.

 

[Skandelon]

The BRACKETS, Skandelon, the BRACKETS make you a liar.

I am talking about compatabalism now as I was then.

So when you said, "Satan does it -- but so does God," you meant the philosophical system called Compatibilism, that is weird? Satan does compatibilism?

Then stop adding misrepresentations in brackets.

Clearly we are talking about the "evil deeds" that you say aren't "evil" when God does them, I included the whole quote even with that qualification, so there is no misrepresentation going on at all. You call deeds that are evil, "not evil" because of the motive. We get it. It's just not biblical or supported by the confessions you like to quote!

DEEDS

for the thousandth time.

Right, the EVIL DEEDS that somehow shift from being EVIL to being GOOD because God does them with a good motive... we get it, we get it... It is that VIEW I'm taking issue with Luke. The confessions don't say, "God did the deeds but they are not evil because His motive is good." They say that God doesn't do them. You and the confessions don't say the same thing.

God DID afflict Job but it was not evil because God's heart was pure and righteous- he did it for the RIGHT reason.

To be completely accurate, Satan, with God's permission, afflicted Job. Even that can cause man to blame God or question him, as Job does, but that doesn't mean God is DOING the DEEDs, only that He has PERMITTED THEM TO BE DONE.

This is SO simple. Why can you not get this????

Please refrain from patronizing and demeaning comments. You know as well as I do that discussions concerning these eternal matters are difficult, complex and have been discussed for centuries by people much smarter than us, so let's not pretend there is anything simple about it, ok?

I'm still trying to get you to help us see the distinction between something God actively and directly DOES and something he ONLY PERMITS. Is there such a thing in your system? Please explain that distinction.

THIS IS THE LIE.

You had to add words in brackets that totally misrepresented my position.

Any one can read and see for themselves that we were clearly talking about the origin of evil and evil deeds. Your quotes and their qualifications (i.e. "its not evil if done by God for the right motive) is all included and thus fully representative of you actual view...the view I'm debating now.

They are the words of Edwards, Piper, Calvin and MANY other champions of the Reformed Faith.

Let's not go down that road again. Edwards quote NEVER says what you do and I doubt any of these others do either...

Not EVIL deeds- just DEEDS. They were evil on the part of Satan and holy and righteous on the part of God.

WE GET IT! This is the VIEW I'm arguing AGAINST!!! OK? WE GET IT! I understand your view Luke. I've properly represented you view by quoting your exact words over and over. It that view that I'm debating against.

That God DID them is irrefutable.

What is "THEM?" DEEDS that would be evil if anyone except God did them. Is that better?

The problem is that your confessions go to great lengths to argue that God DOESN'T DO THEM. That is the point of our contention to which you haven't addressed.

 

[Luke2427]

WE GET IT! This is the VIEW I'm arguing AGAINST!!! OK? WE GET IT! I understand your view Luke. I've properly represented you view by quoting your exact words over and over. It that view that I'm debating against.

This is the only thing I am going to respond to until you stop this nonsense.

You cannot quote me without adding brackets and words that TOTALLY misrepresent my position.

If you don't understand compatabalism, that is fine. But just because you don't understand it doesn't mean that you must accuse me of saying something I have NEVER said.

Consider watching this video with Dr. Bruce Ware speaking on the subject to help you get it. It will also help you abandon this silly notion of libertarian free will in the first 3 minutes. It will address this issue at about 3 minutes and 25 seconds. At about 5 minutes Ware will say in no uncertain terms "God did it". Again at about 6 minutes 10 seconds. At 6 minutes and 35 seconds he says "GOD DID! WICKED MEN DID!" Pay special attention to what this Calvinist Theology SCHOLAR said at 7 minutes and 5 seconds. Notice how at 8:30 min 30 sec. to 9 min. 15 sec. this man who has a TREMENDOUS reputation as a respected Bible Scholar in the reformed community says that it is a matter of the heart. What I have been arguing all along is NOT the minority view in Calvinism. Not today and and not EVER! This is compatabalism. Two wills; two intentions culminating in one event in time.

Until you get it stop intentionally misrepresenting my position and making me out to be a heretic.

 

[DHK]

Here's where I'm going to disagree with you. He did decree for it to happen. He chose for it to happen. He didn't force it. The brothers choices were their own. I agree with you on that point. But that doesn't meant that it was decreed. See, God could have chosen another method of getting Joseph to Egypt, but He didn't. He chose to use the sin of the brothers go get Joseph to Egypt.

I agree. Perhaps I didn't explain myself well enough.
He decreed the general event: Joseph going into Egypt.
But the method of Joseph going to Egypt is another matter. As you say, God could have chosen another way. There were many ways Joseph could have gotten into Egypt. But God chose the iniquity of his brothers (cause in part by the righteousness of Joseph), to sell him into slavery. The word "chose" here does not mean "decree." And the sin of the brothers are their own sins which they are accountable for. I believe we are in agreement.

Yes, exactly. As I stated earlier, you are equating decree with cause.

If I am that wasn't my intention.

Decree is God choosing that it will happen, cause is the means by which it happens. God doesn't cause/force/be the author of the sin. He chooses to allow it to happen to accomplish His will. God is sovereign. He could have chosen another way, but decreed to allow the sin of the brothers to be the method of Joseph getting to Egypt.

I have no argument with that.

 

[TomVols]

Sixteen pages is quite enough.

Reprise the theme song and roll the credits.