Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just a choice between Good and evil?

TexasSky

The Greek word translated "predestined" is "proorizo", which means "to determine or decree beforehand. From pro (4253), "before", and "horizo", (3724), "to determine".

To determine before the foundation of the world is not the same as "foreseen". It means predestined. God exercising His free will in determining beforehand who the saints would be. That is the plain words of scripture, English and Greek.

There are other words for "foreseen", that are used on occasion. I am not surprised you got them confused. Many people look at the scriptures trying to find something they can use to support a position, instead of trying to understand what it says.

Any inconsistency in my positions are in your mind and not mine, nor or they in scripture.

Yes I believe you are trying to be offensive. And rude and insulting and just plain hateful. If you want to have a conversation, we can. If you want to keep insulting me, I will simply not respond.

 

Strong's Number: 4309 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
proorivzw

from (4253) Strong's Number: 4253 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
prov a primary preposition
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Pro 6:683,935
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pro Preposition

Definition
before


and (3724)Original Word Word Origin
oJrivzw from (3725)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Horizo 5:452,728
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
hor-id'-zo Verb

Definition
to define
to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing) 1b to determine, appoint
that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree
to ordain, determine, appoint



Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Proorizo 5:456,728
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pro-or-id'-zo Verb

Definition
to predetermine, decide beforehand
in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
to foreordain, appoint beforehand


King James Word Usage - Total: 6
predestinate 4, determine before 1, ordain 1



Ac 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:


Ac 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
Greek Word: Proorivzw
Transliterated Word: proorizo

Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ro 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Greek Word: Proorivzw
Transliterated Word: proorizo

1Co 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordain ed before the world unto our glory:
Greek Word: Proorivzw
Transliterated Word: proorizo


Eph 1:5 Having predestinate d us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinate d according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Greek Word: Proorivzw
Transliterated Word: proorizo


Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary plus others; this is keyed to the large Kittel and the "Theological Dictionary of the New Testament." These files are public domain.

 

JD,

Do not feel you are in a position to talk down to me. You have given different interpretations of God's holy scripture in two threads, based on what you want them to say. You have had to explain away scripture to make your point.

If I was in error, it is in what I thought YOU were saying, not in what the scripture says.

I thought you were translating proorivzw as "predestined," in I Peter.

 

Thank you Diane

 

TexasSky

You are in continuous error because you do not know the scriptures, nor do you understand the power and sovereignty of God, nor do you understand the concept of grace (unmerited favor).

You continue to accuse hastily without studying scripture or even what I have said about scripture. (i.e. your accsuation that I didn't know scripture, and then using the wrong defintion for predestined; i.e. your angry response to the passage in Luke, where you said I was trying to say the woman had to love Jesus first before He forgave her, which is the exact opposite of my point).

You continue to base your interpretations of scripture on what you want it to say, rather than what it actually says (i.e. all you said concerning the Rom. 9 passage, taking it completely out of context, and inventing a new way to look at the passage; i.e. your misunderstanding of John 1 and how those who believe are born of the will of God).

You continue to make harsh assumptions based on your wisdom (i.e. that I am making God a "cruel manipulator", or someone is trying to "destroy" the love of God, or that I think Christ died on the cross for nothing). All of which are blatantly false and come close to being a bold face lie.

Several times I have asked you if you wish to have a civil discussion on scripture. I have no desire to fight with you or anyone else.

If you want to discuss scripture, then choose one passage. Let's look at it together, determine the context and then the meaning. If we can't agree, fine, but at least we are discussing the Word of God and not bickering back and forth about who is twisting scripture and what not.

 

JD, don't thank ME. The word FOREKNEW is right there for all to see........


Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Strong's Number: 4267 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
proginwvskw from (4253) and (1097)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Proginosko 1:715,119
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
prog-in-oce'-ko Verb

Definition
to have knowledge before hand
to foreknow
of those whom God elected to salvation

REMEMBER: The definitions listed are from MAN'S dictionary and not all are the same!

Denotes in ordinary Greek the intelligent comprehension of an object or matter, whether this comes for the first time, or comes afresh, into the consideration of the one who grasps it (“to come to know,” “to experience,” “to perceive [again]”) or whether it is already present (“ to perceive”). The inchoative construction shows that, while the ingressive aspect of the act of comprehension is originally emphasised, this can fade into the background, and the meaning can be simply “to know” or “ to understand.”

The word used in 1 Peter means:

prov a primary preposition
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Pro 6:683,935
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pro Preposition

Definition
before



ginwvskw: to learn to know, come to know, get a knowledge of perceive, feel
to become known
to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of
to understand
to know
Jewish idiom for sexual intercourse between a man and a woman
to become acquainted with, to know

Before God learned? Before God came to know? Felt? Perceived? Had knowledge of? Before sexual intercourse between a jewish man and woman? Before God was acquainted with????

 

JD,

I do know my scriptures. Unlike you, I read them in context. I don't pull them out of context and apply different meanings to different passages, and when called on it try to excuse it away with words like, "That was in answer to something else."

When I read them, I tend to read them from Verse 1 Chapter 1 to the end of the book they appear in, so I can determine the whole meaning, rather than fall victim to the fales teachings that you and others offer.

As to "my interpretations." I read the word of God as, "God desires that all men should be saved," and accept it at God's word. You read that and claim all only means a few.

I interpret it the way it was interpreted for 1560+ years, before a man who was labeled a heretic said, "Wait, that isn't what it means."

I have tried my best to be civil to you, but I am extremely frustrated with you, and your false accusations.

I'm not the person saying that God is unjust, I'm not the person calling Him a liar, I'm not the person saying devalueing the Cross of Christ so that I can feel like some kind of elitist.

Your view implies that for some reason, your sins were "less" than other mans, or your goodness 'better' than others. That for some reason God offered you grace that He did not offer to others, and that therefore you are "special."

The fact is, God said that ALL men sinned.
The fact is, God's word says he desires that NONE should perish.
The fact is, God's word says he desires that ALL men should repent.
The fact is, God's word says his message of grace unto salvation is sent to ALL men.
The fact is, God's word says "WHOSOEVER believeth on Him shall be saved."

You have NEVER addressed those scriptures. You just run and grab other scripture out of context and say, "It must mean this," and when I say, "Look at the WHOLE scripture," you change to another argument.

You are not special JD. NNE is.

God loves us ALL.
He OFFERS grace to all.
Some of us accept.
Some of us do not.

Those who DO, become God's elect.
Those who DO, become the children of God.

That's scripture.

But, as of now, I'm done with this.

I give you over to your false teachings that man does not have an obligation to a personal committment of Christ.

May God have mercy on your soul.

 

Diane:

I apologize for thanking you. I was referring to your giving the defintion of "predestined", which was, in fact, what was in question.

You said, "Definition
to predetermine, decide beforehand
in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
to foreordain, appoint beforehand"

TexasSky, in error, said it was the word used in the N.T. for "predestined". "Foreknowledge" is a completely different word.

"Foreknowledge" for God is not referring to something God learned, is it? Can God learn anything? God is alknowing, isn't he? We don't want present God as anything less than scripture says He is, do we?

Foreknowledge is (As you pointed out, within the range of meaning for the word can mean to know intimately (not sexually)) refers to relationship. God's relationship with His saints was prior to the foundation of the world. It was all part of His plan.

"Ro 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Look at the activity of God in making sure His saints are brought into a saving relationship with Him. I see no mention of man's "free-will" in this process. I see God doing it all, knowing, predestinating, calling, justifying, glorifying.

 

TexasSky

Review my previous post to you. There you go again!

 

JD,

I'm going to try .. one more time.. to make you see how you contradict yourself.

You say that before the earth was formed, God said, "JD can go to heaven, but the guy next door can't."

You then say, "I pray every person on the planet truly accepts Christ and lives their lives accordingly. My heart aches for those who reject Christ, or who have decieved themselves into believing they are saved."

To which I say, if you REALLY believe that their fate is already determined, why bother doing what you say in the second paragraph?

Your answer to that is always, "God said to," but deep down in your own GUT you KNOW that God said to share His word because in the end, a personal committment to Christ is the one and only condition of salvation.

You and others like you have been spoon fed Calvinism so long that while you actually spend most of your church life praying that others come to Christ, and witnessing for Christ so that they may, you preach that you're wasting your breath doing so because it was all already settled.

Your prayers are worthless if there is not, in the end, the choice of acceptance or rejection of the message of Grace, but beyond that - you deny God's word is you say Grace is not offered to all.

You say, "Only those that God reaches out to can be saved," but the bible says, clearly, He reaches out to all. So that leaves you with, "everyone is saved."

That's not true.

The bottom line is that it is so simple, so pure.
God loved the whole world.
God sent His son "that the world, through Him might be saved,"
God offers his message of grace unto salvation to "all men,"
And "Whosoever believes."

Every verse that mentions predestination is talking about the promises made to those who DO accept God, they are not talking about which people will or won't.

But you cling to John Calvin like He is a disciple. If John Calvin's words were holy, God would have put them in the bible.

 

The definition I gave was NOT for 1 Peter. Please look at YOUR word and TexasSky's word. They are NOT the same words.

 

This is silly at best but more like an outrage. The lengths that some go to denounce truth are discreditable, yet they gory in their shame as they show themselives to be fools

The logic of man will always go toward the attach Gods Holy name and decree. Some claiming to know Greek should have been in the Greek way before this point was reached. They flip over the pages in the Bible looking for truth to support their faith and they can not find it. The reason being there is no support. They then look at logic for in mans logic is where they base their truth. Mans wisdom belongs to fools!!

Mans logic can not withstand the truth of God. As a way to overthrow the truth, they look into Church history for surely they will find someone that believes as they do. Yes, you will find many outside the Bible not take on the truths of wisdom found inside it’s holy pages. They lie, mislead, try to explain to others what the other must believe if they hold to the verses found in Gods Word. They jump from the doctrine of sin..to the doctrine of salvation and over to the doctrine of man or maybe the doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ to answer a question posted to them on the doctrine of sin....twisting Gods Word to fit what faith they have.

It has now come time to compare word for word what the KJV says with the strongs greek word. This does not hold water for their faith either... so they change the KJV word used to a word they fill better using. What madness!! How far will some go to show a point that is not in the bible? When will it end?. It may be time to stop fighting God and listen to His Word.

One must recall Gods ture wisdom as we see it found in the Bible.

Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. 7 Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil.
Mans understanding...we are not to lean on. Mans logic is wrong. if i do not understand it...i should not make up a lie...change the Bible...or twist it’s meaning.

The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

notice the colon ..anything after the colon is an extra expression of the 1st part.

so it is fair to claim...fools fear knowledge and instruction. They run from the truth

this is shown even more in james 3
13Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you?

This is looking at man...who is the wise man. You must see this 1st or again there will be more twisting to fits mans logic.

13blet him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom.

one key word here...meekness. In a debate over Gods Word, do not debate as to win. Debate as to learn. stand your ground based on the Bible...but when shown in Gods Word the truth..let your view fall...and take hold of the truth dear friends.

When i came home from work friday my wife was looking for my postings on this BB. I have shared with her a few things and she could not find them to read. my wife had come across the calvin/arminanism forum for this is where she thought she would find my postings. I sat down to show her where mind could be found.

Later i went back to the calvin/arminanism forum and read in heart wrenching disgust many of the postings. Some that you see in this very forum you will find there in that forum, and stop at nothing in their mission to attach the truth of Gods Word. The crossing of doctrine made me want to throw up. Yet they are not as bad as some you will find there.

There is one guy on the calvin/arminanism forum ...i will not say his name....he has close to 9000 post. Most had to be in this calvin/arminanism forum...for it was page after page of “Mr. 9000” post telling others what they really believed was not what they said they believed. How foolish. Why try to tell the other person what is on their mind? He would go on to lie, twist, mislead...anyway to WIN.

I have seen this very thing in this forum from those that I found in the other forum. It does make you wonder a lot as JD just posted..

“You continue to base your interpretations of scripture on what you want it to say, rather than what it actually says (i.e. all you said concerning the Rom. 9 passage, taking it completely out of context, and inventing a new way to look at the passage; i.e. your misunderstanding of John 1 and how those who believe are born of the will of God).
You continue to make harsh assumptions based on your wisdom (i.e. that I am making God a "cruel manipulator", or someone is trying to "destroy" the love of God, or that I think Christ died on the cross for nothing). All of which are blatantly false and come close to being a bold face lie.”

they do anything to win...not caring for the truth.

while posting on this forum, i have been called robot, programmed, a lair, was said I make God a Lair and more

hey say predestinate is not so ..then they tell what predestinate is...then they go back and attach it...now they want to change the word to another word.

A person armed with only a bible could shut down the calvin/arminanism forum in just a month if one was made to stick to the point and not talk in mans logic. i will not...for most that goes on in that forum is to silly to fool with. This does apply to those that defend calvin as well as those that hold to arminanism. nothing but ..Worthless time..i have not. FOOLs

back to james..
14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth.

you can see much bitterness in this forum which i post this.. What does this say about the heart of those that follow mans wisdom?...to do anything to win?


15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. 16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work.

twist and confuse this is the goal.

Reader..look at the post for yourself on calvin/arminanism forum and see for yourself. They jump from one forum to the other and attaching the truth....listen not to the Bible

evil works...”works” as the bible looks at works...now works is something you will find at the end of their logic....works always is in man made faith...but i’ll not go there for this would be jumping subject


17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

as to show how they would twist the word i do not stop at verse 16. for if i did..you would see them jump on one word...claim it as their own...run down the halls waving the flag of victory. for this debate to them is to win....not for the truth.

this word you will see above...without partiality. aw...there is is. i can see them dancing now. “Gods word says he is not partiality. It says it right there...look...let me show you in the greek...yes..it says it there too.”...they would cry out.

This however is not the case...but would show once again the misuse of Gods holy word.

those that study greek..you should know all of this one thing.

in greek class you will be thought this phrase...or you should be. Context is King. This means...you can not grab one word and run with it. what is the context? contexts rules...or is king over one word. this whole passages is the same. This tells us from the beginning wisdom will or will not be seen in those believes the next truths.

how does this relate to other places in the bible showing God choosing? this we will see later...but the context of this passage is talking to believers.

but let me make a REAL point for your “side”.

if the believer is to have this..”without partiality”...and we are to be like Christ...then why does the Word tell us that God does choose?

now...i helped you out. that is a good question to ask...and one we should addressed....not this silly stuff.

you do not like the word predestinate?
I have a idea for the forum....lets change the word to predestinate to “bobag”. what you never heard of this word? good reason for this...i just made it up. what does it mean...well...since we replaced this word with predestinate it means...destinate know. you see...no matter what word you use...its the meaning that counts. if you change the meaning..you change Gods message. if you change Gods message...well...you know

more to come....

 

Now lets look at what was posted...
What you seem to have a problem with is the word predestinate.

tex...you started with you not sure about predestination ..you move on and gave your view on it before..now you want to back from it? this i do not understand


To those that hold to this veiw you may think...If only it was not in the Bible..then we would no longer have to worry about it. We have been using the KJV for the most part...so lets look at the way others translate this word.

we need to get rid of that word predestinate..so lets look in the RSV

29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

no help there...how about Amplified Bible


29For those whom He foreknew [of whom He was [k]aware and [l]loved beforehand], He also destined from the beginning [foreordaining them] to be molded into the image of His Son [and share inwardly His likeness], that He might become the firstborn among many brethren.

    30And those whom He thus foreordained, He also called; and those whom He called, He also justified (acquitted, made righteous, putting them into right standing with Himself). And those whom He justified, He also glorified [raising them to a heavenly dignity and condition or state of being].

destined....humm there it is again.

how about the NIV?

NIV

29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

nope...
cross your fingers as we look at NASB

NASB
29For those whom He (BI)foreknew, He also (BJ)predestined to become (BK)conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the (BL)firstborn among many brethren;

   30and these whom He (BM)predestined, He also (BN)called; and these whom He called, He also (BO)justified; and these whom He justified, He also (BP)glorified.

Well shoot...i guy can’t win. lets see ....lets look at some of the lesser used Bibles..


Darby
29 Because whom he has foreknown, he has also predestinated [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, so that he should be [the] firstborn among many brethren. 30 But whom he has predestinated, these also he has called; and whom he has called, these also he has justified; but whom he has justified, these also he has glorified.

nope...

Douay-Rheims
29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son: that he might be the Firstborn amongst many brethren.

30 And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified.


Nope....



New Life (bible)
29God knew from the beginning who would put their trust in Him. So He chose them and made them to be like His Son. Christ was first and all those who belong to God are His brothers.

    30He called to Himself also those He chose . Those He called, He made right with Himself. Then He shared His shining-greatness with those He made right with Himself.

nope...............same idea

ESV
29For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.


nope not here..in the ESV

how about something way out there....

The message....(a very loose bible)

29God knew what he was doing from the very beginning. He decided from the outset to shape the lives of those who love him along the same lines as the life of his Son. The Son stands first in the line of humanity he restored. We see the original and intended shape of our lives there in him. 30After God made that decision of what his children should be like, he followed it up by calling people by name. After he called them by name, he set them on a solid basis with himself. And then, after getting them established, he stayed with them to the end, gloriously completing what he had begun.

Ok...maybe..i mean if you wanted to push it. this may help you some...but i think this is weak and still says the samething. But if you want...i’ll give you this one.

ok...with little to no support you may think...you must turn to something else. what about the 1st english translation? Wycliffe

Wycliffe New Testament

8:29 For thilke that he knewe bifor, he bifor ordenede bi grace to be maad lijk to the ymage of his sone, that he be the first bigetun among many britheren.

8:30 And thilke that he bifore ordeynede to blis, hem he clepide; and whiche he clepide, hem he iustifiede; and whiche he iustifiede, and hem he glorifiede.

This is harder to read...but ouch..there it is again.

the answer must be in the greek
i post you now what diane posted....all can read. all can see if this yet another twist. you read...you decide.

Definition
to define
to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing) 1b to determine, appoint
that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree
to ordain, determine, appoint

Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Proorizo 5:456,728
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
pro-or-id'-zo Verb

Definition
to predetermine, decide beforehand
in the NT of God decreeing from eternity
to foreordain, appoint beforehand


King James Word Usage - Total: 6
predestinate 4, determine before 1, ordain 1


In the Greek they think they claim to now have found it. This will lets us win this deadte. Yet when they speak they show a try lack of understanding and willingness to learn. There are some in this forum that are dead set winning a debate that they go to any end to fulfill this. They place their own wisdom above the Word and speak it vain ignorances of the subject using verses out of context, lies and telling other what they believe

this is the Word of God!! not some playground debate of what came 1st the chicken or the egg!!

as to other verses posted...saying this is not predestinate....reader i say again..context is king...read on your own..do not be fooled my the wisdom of the world. read the word...believe the word.

This can be read as if coming across to hard. It was very hard to write, but i feel needed to be said. Some have been ran off from this forum already from this foolish talk. I too once thought of leaving for it was not worth the time to debate outside the Word of God. I’m sorry for the number of verses used...but it has been shown that words will be used out of context....so once again...lay it all out...let the read decide.

man does have a will. he can pick from one of those paths..

heaven or hell
love or fear
works or greace
Gods way...your way
Gods will...your will

ken collier from the wilds coined this phase...

only to choices on the shelf..
choose you God
or choose yourself.

In Christ...James

 

JD wilson died in the 60s..68-69 he is a stroy teller..but he used verse not like some these days.

one book of his ever preacher should have is "bible types."...great book

 

this sounds like you do not want a calvin person to pray. you sound like this a lot...yet i...and others say you are wron...still you do not understand...for you hold to mans logic.

let me tell a story that is hard for me to believe for me to happen. ted bundy...he killed many young ladies over the years. yet the year before they fried him...he goes and gets saved. now how fair is that? many of those young ladies he killed...did not know Christ. some never heard of Christ love before bundy came and cut their life short. how sad. those that did not know of God...went to hell dammed forever. yet bundy..the guy that killed them...goes to heaven.

is that fair? not to me. that is so unfair. But that is mans logic talking. God forgives all sinners and that means God sent His son for ted too..if he did in fact call Christ his Lord Ted is in heaven today. Ted i would have to call my brother in christ.

God only knows if he did, but mans logic will never keep him out. Christ blood was for ted as well as mine.


In Christ...James

 

</font>[/QUOTE]humm

 

this has never been said that i can recall. God pushes no one away. God only chooses.
you say this over and over again....the guy can't? sinners can not..unless washed in the blood.

this is what many do...they fill in the blanks. do not fill them in. just go with Gods word...and let God fill them in when we get to heaven

In Christ...james

 

That is NOT what the Calvinists say! The BIBLE, however, says Jesus died for ALL!

 

how does this relate to other places in the bible showing God choosing? this we will see later...but the context of this passage is talking to believers.

this part in james i posted above should say...

this is talking of men.. not just believers

not not God

 

That is NOT what the Calvinists say! The BIBLE, however, says Jesus died for ALL! </font>[/QUOTE]diane,

with that statement you show you have never read calvin. you must have read someone blasting calvin. if calvin is wrong...chuck him. calvin is not God. but...if he says something wrong...do we still chuck him?

like i have heard some that has never read calvin say...i do not believe one word calvin said. then follow that with a message on once saved always saved. what a fool!! calvin stood for this doctrine higher..stronger then any one writer i know. This shows they have not read

In Christ...james