Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just a choice between Good and evil?

That is NOT what the Calvinists say! The BIBLE, however, says Jesus died for ALL! </font>[/QUOTE]besides...this is not about calvin this is about the will of man...and what the bible says about it.

diane..do not be fall pray to lies. If others must lie to defend their faith...think about it....what is that saying?

i tell you and whoever reads...do not take my word for it. study...know for sure...others try to tell me...what i believe. how can they see my heart?

show me the verses....that will change me. not some old dead guy that hated calvin. not some guy that says he knows...yet opens his mouth to prove other wise.

just go with God

 

James, I don't know this old dead guy who hates Calvin. What I know is that Calvinists pull out a few verses and claim they prove their point. When pushed for definitive answers, they come up with 'It's a Mystery'.

Scripture repeatedly says that Jesus Christ died for ALL men, God is not willing that ANY should perish and scripture is what I base MY beliefs on.

BTW... I'd not even heard the terms C/A until a few years ago. Now I had heard preachings on Predestination vs Free Will. Free Will wins!

 

if they can not back it up...shame on them. And whatever you do...do not go for any twist. but...if it is line with Gods word....take it over mans.

calvin i can not..will not defend in all areas. that being said...he was dead on it when it comes to mans will.

i have asked for verses to prove freewill. you will find none. i mean...do not let me stop you from looking. look if you will. but none is there. do you not think you would find one verse? many use verses of Gods will of calling all to Him. but that is Gods will. yet 100s of verse showing time and again...man is dead

again...i would love for you to see this on your own..but i know you may never. but do one thing for me.
start with romans. ..read the 1st 3 verses of each book after this. Its not in all books. i'm not telling you what to look for...just read them.
no need to post what you find...unless you wish. no twist...i have said nothing...just read the bible

 

James, we've posted these over and over but it's 11:00 p.m. here in just mins. and I'm heading to bed. Go read all the other threads on predestination, C/A, etc. and you'll find the verses.

Night all!

 

As Diane said, the scripture regarding free-will is out there. Pure and simple, and it has been posted in this thread many times over.
The bible clearly says that God sends the message of grace unto salvation to all men.
The bible clearly says that God desires that all men be saved, and that all men repent.

If the message goes to all men, and if God desires that all men repent and be saved - the only explanation for men sinning is rejection of Christ.

As to saying that I don't know predestination, if that actually appears in this thread it was not meant as "I don't know anything about it," it was meant as, "Wait a minute, I disagree." I often use the phrase, "I don't know about that," or various forms of it.

The teachings of John Calvin are simple. What breaks my heart is that none of who teach it bother to follow it through to the "final" end and see that it is ridiculous.

Calvin teaches that because man is born in sin it is impossible for man to reach out to God, and that therefore only those the Holy Spirit chose before the dawn of time can come to know Christ, and that everyone else dies, not for rejecting Christ, but because God never offered grace to them.

That contradicts scripture.

It also makes a total mockery of the cross and of Christ. For it says that Christ did not die for all men, but rather that He only died for a few special cases.

Christ died for all men. He offers His gift of salvation to all, but He allows man, in the end, to choose to accept Him or reject Him.

To say otherwise is to say that churches, missionaries, the bible itself is really unnecessary. After all, if God already made up His mind, and nothing will change it or man has no responsibility to obey or reject - the entire Christian religion is a lie.

 

For those who have apparently skipped the scriptures we are speaking of, here they are again.....

Pick your translation:

NIV:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

KJV: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Greek Lexicon: Appeared the grace of God saving to all men.
----

2nd Peter 3:9

NIV: "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

KJV: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Greek Lexicon:
9 not is slow the Lord of the promise, as some slowness deem, but is longsuffering towrd you, not purposing any to persish, but all men to repentance to come.


1 Timothy 2:3-5
NIV
"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men, the testimony given in its proper time."

KJV:
"3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

Greek Lexicon: "This is good and acceptable before the Savior of us God, who all men wishes to be saved, and to a full knowledge of truth to come, for one there is God, one also mediator of God and of men, a man Christ Jesus, the one having given himeslf a ransom on behalf of all, the testimony in its own times.

Over, and over, and over, the scripture says that Christ died for all men, that the spirit of grace is calls to all men, and that God desires all men be saved.

Over and over we are told that only those who believe in Christ will be saved.

Christ tells people, at various times, statements like, "Your faith has made you whole."

Christ's command to His disciples were, "Go ye therefore unto all the world, teaching all nations, ...."

Luke phrases it like this, as a quote from Christ Himself, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in His name to all nations, beginnign at Jerusalem. You are wittnesses of these things."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten son, that whosever believeth on Him should not perish, but have everlasting life,"

Is FOLLOWED by:

John 3:17 For God did not send His son into the world t condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. Whoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Do you see that? The "predestination" is about what happens to "groups" of people. It is "preordained" that those who follow Christ will be saved, forgiven and children of God. It is "preordeained" that those who do not follow Christ are condemned because they don't follow him.

It is not, "you can go to heaven and you can't." It is, "Christians can, rejectors of Christ can't."

 

i agree. so why say it is not in the bible? why try to change it to another word? why show clips that say it is from pagans? why say the roman catholic started this? why not stick with the bible...let me say again...

destination know by God. this is Gods plan of salvation...he knows the beginning..and He knows the end. the end is the destination. there is nothing wrong with this word.

tex..i think you are mixing election with predestination, this is wrong. to be fair..many do this. calviin supporters do this too. But you need to see the big picture. these 2 are linked in a way. but predestination is not the driving force. you have shown 2-3 times that you understand predestination. do not turn and attach it.


as to the other verses....once again...thanks for sharing Gods love. I will reply to any that you want..but this is not the doctrine of sin. mans will is under the doctrine of sin. grace is it from God or man? grace is from God.

the calling all to be saved...who calling? man or God? god is calling...this is the doctrine of salvation.

again..i will reply you if wish. but let me tell you this...my reply will be very close to what you just said. no....i would say it stronger. God does want all to be saved.

if you want to talk about Gods calling...lets start a forum and talk about it. but plz...plz...stop posting verses from another doctrine trying to say they fit mans will


thanks and have a good 4th


in Christ...james

 

i overlooked these statements. i replied to your verses...but not these lines you added


you said..
Over, and over, and over, the scripture says that Christ died for all men, that the spirit of grace is calls to all men, and that God desires all men be saved.
*********************

yes it does. this is the doctrine of salvation
saved from what? .......sin
grace is from who? ......God saves.
God desires ALL men to be saved so what is this called....Gods will.


what about mans will? what about the state of man when God reaches out to him...what state do we find him? not the state of West Viriginia..West Viriginia is almost heaven...so its not West Viriginia. what does the bible say?

do you understand?...do you not see?
*************************
you said....
Over and over we are told that only those who believe in Christ will be saved.
************************
yes...this is Gods love. is not Gods love great?

saved from what? saved from sin. not saved from sinning. we will still sin. but in Christ we are no longer slaves to sin...God now lives within us.

do you see this? can you see you are crossing over into Gods love...and not dealing with mans state?

***********************************
Christ tells people, at various times, statements like, "Your faith has made you whole."
*********************************
salvation does make us whole. if it makes us whole...what are we before? whatever you want to use to answer this...is mans will. where was man before he was whole?

do you see you crossed from mans sinful will...into salvation?
*********************************
Christ's command to His disciples were, "Go ye therefore unto all the world, teaching all nations, ...."
***********************************
there are many doctrines in this statement.
Chrsit command...this is Gods will
to his disciples....this has to do to those that follow him. this would be covered under the doctrine of the church.
Go ye therefore.....we are to preach the gospel
the world. ok..this is the sin doctrine. the world is lost. we need to share Gods Word to all that are lost.
to paths...
Gods way...the worlds way


i hope this helps for you to see how you change things.

In Christ...James

 

The definition I gave was NOT for 1 Peter. Please look at YOUR word and TexasSky's word. They are NOT the same words. </font>[/QUOTE]I am confused at your response to me. TexasSky said that she had done a study in the Greek and had discovered that the words I and others translated as "predestined" really meant "foreknew". She did not mention 1 Peter. She accused me of "not knowing" the scripture.

If I have ever addressed the passage in 1 Peter, prior to you bringing it up, then I cannot recall. I know for certain that I have never confused "predestined" with "foreknew".

So TexasSky remains in error. She either does not know the difference between the words "predestined" and "foreknew" (English or Greek), or she has once again made erroneous claims about what I have said.

Either way, I am confused at your response to me.

 

Titus 3:4 (KJV) But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

 

TexasSky

You said, "Calvin teaches that because man is born in sin it is impossible for man to reach out to God, and that therefore only those the Holy Spirit chose before the dawn of time can come to know Christ,"

"and that everyone else dies, not for rejecting Christ, but because God never offered grace to them."

You got the first part of the sentence somewhat right, but the second part is wrong. Calvin taught that scripture reveals that man is unable to reach out to God unless God first regenerates him by the Holy Spirit.

Every person on the planet has already rejected Christ. God would still be righteous and Holy and Love if He condemned everyone. Let's see if that is true from scripture.

John 1:10 "He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. (v.11) He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him."

His own creation rejected Him. The whole world.

John 1:12 "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name."

Wait a second! Didn't God's Word just say the whole world "did not receive Him." Now it says some will receive Him and believe in His name. How is that possible? Maybe we should keep reading.

John 1:13 "who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God".

OK, how is it possible for those who had rejected God to believe? The "who" in v.13 refers to the "children who believe" in v.12. Let's see... they were "born" (I wonder if this might be explained further in John 3? Yes, it is! We will go there in a minute) not of blood. This could mean the blood sacrifices or the blood line of Abraham, or it could mean both. Clearly, your first birth doesn't make you a child of God.

They were born not of the "will of the flesh". That seems to indicate you can't work your way to heaven.

They were born not of the "will of man". Wow!! All of you who keep saying scripture supports the idea of man having "free-will" seem to avoid this particular part of God's Word. The context is salvation. This is a definitive rejection of "free-will" theology, in God's own words (not Calvin's).

Those who believe and are givin the right to become children of God are born of the will of God. God exercising His own "free-will" to bring His children to Himself. Let's see if that is supported anywhere else.

John 3:3 "Truly, Truly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"

That is an incredible statement. You must be "born again." It seems to further explain John 1:13. I wonder why God chose to use this particular analogy? Could it be that people might understand that they didn't control their first birth, and they cannot control their second? Let's see if that is true.

John 3:6&8 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit, is spirit. (v.8)The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Jesus is obviously using a play on the Greek word "pneuma" (4151), which can mean spirit or wind. In this context, He is speaking of the Holy Spirit "blowing where He wishes".

The Greek word for "wishes" is "thelo" (2309) which means "to will". It is stronger than simple "wish" because it indicates "pressing on to action". So Jesus is saying everyone who is born of the Spirit is born because of the will and activity of the Holy Spirit. That is clearly consistent with what God's Word taught in John 1:13.

So now we have scripture supporting scripture that salvation is of the will of God. I still do not see anything about man's "free-will" concerning salvation. It must be because it isn't there. Salvation is a "heavenly" thing.

John 3:12 "If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how shall you believe if I tell you heavenly things?"

I wonder if this means Jesus is telling us "heavenly things"? Yes, it must mean that. Is there any more "heavenly things" about to be revealed to us? Let's take a look.

John 3:14-15 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; that whoever believes may in Him have eternal life."

First of all, the "whoever believes" has already been defined by Jesus as those who are born by the will of the Holy Spirit (3v.8), and/or the will of God (1:13). Since the "who" has already been defined, the focus of the text must lie somewhere else. Let's see if that is true.

"The Son of Man must be lifted up". Could it be that Jesus is telling us that the cross is the "means" by which the "who" will be born again by the Spirit? I see it must be true. So the cross is a necessary part of God's plan of salvation of the "who", which are born according to His will.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life"

So Jesus has already revealed to us the "whoever believes" are those "born again" by the will of the Spirit (God), and that the "means" of that salvation lies in the cross, so the focus must lie somewhere else. Could it be that Jesus is giving God's motivation for doing all this. I see it must be true.

"For God so loved the world". Love for the whole world motivates God's plan of salvation. How can this be? Didn't Jesus just say that salvation was a work of the Holy Spirit? Does this mean Christ came to the whole world? I beleive John has already stated that to be true when He said (in 1:10) "He came into the world...and the world did not know Him".

If salvation is only for those who are "born" by the Spirit, why did Christ come to the whole world? Let's see what scripture says.

John 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him."

The word "saved" has a wide variety of meaning in the Greek. It can refer to the salvation of men (but John doesn't use it that way), in John 4:5, it refers to those with illnesses being made well, and it can refer to preservation or deliverance.

This particular word in John 3:17 is a subjunctive, 1st aorist passive verb. "Subjunctive" means that it is a possibility, not a fact. It translates "might be saved".

OK, when John speaks of salvation of men, he uses terms like "given the right to be the chidren of God (by the will of God)", "born again by the will of the Spriit". No where does John use "saved" to refer to the salvation of men. If you hold that "saved" here is refering to the salvation of men (which many do) then it is referring to the whole world.

That is inconsistent with what Jesus has just told us about men being "born again by the will of the Spirit" and what John said earlier about men being "born of the will of God."

John is using the word translated "might be saved", referring to the world, to mean "might be preserved". That is consistent with the juxapostion of "to judge", which would mean "to condemn". So the world has rejected Christ. God sent Him into the world, not to condemn it, but to preserve or deliver it. Let's see if that is true.

Already John has mentioned the world was created by Jesus, that Jesus had come into the world and the whole world had rejected Him. Now he says:

John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged, he who does not believe has been judged already because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

We already know that Jesus has defined "He who believes" in terms of those who have been "born again" by the Holy Spirit. Notice that all the rest have been "judged already". Why? Let's see what scripture says.

John 3:19 "And this is the judgement, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil."

This is consistent with what John had said earlier, that Jesus came unto His own and they did not receive Him. Notice that Jesus is saying the whole world loved darkness, and their deeds where evil. Jesus is then going to compare two groups of people. 1. Those who do evil. 2. Those who practice the truth.

Notice that those who do evil hate the light (Jesus). The whole world hates and rejects God. God could condemn the whole world, but instead, He sent Jesus to "preserve or deliver" the world. How?

Notice that those who practice truth come to Christ (the light) so that their deeds may "be manifest as having been wrought of in God."

The word manifest is phaneroo (5319) which means to "reveal". The word wrought is "ergazomai" which means "work or labour"

When they pratice truth, and come to the light, their deeds will be revealed to have been a work of God.

Again, no sign of man's free-will anywhere.

God preserves the world (and thus, He keeps His promises to Abraham and others concerning the remnant) by causing some to be "born again" that they may do deeds of light, instead of condemning the whole world to hell.

It is all part of His plan for His saints.

 

I have NO intention of reading the teachings of John Calvin.


John 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

JD,

What you don't see is that John Calvin is communicating, in the end, exactly what I said.

Everyone on the planet has not rejected Christ.
I sure didn't.


I notice that you never address the scritpures which show you are in error.

 

TexasSky

You said, "Everyone on the planet has not rejected Christ. I sure didn't."

Rom.3:10-12 disagrees with you. "There is none righteous, not even one; There is none who understands, There is none who seeks for God; All have turned aside, together they have become useless; there is none who does good, there is not even one."

and

John 3:19 "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil."

I hope you don't think you are exempt from this condemnation, do you? Obviously, or maybe not to some, I am speaking prior to conversion, everyone has rejected Christ, even the elect.

I have clearly demonstrated from the Word of God found in the Gospel of John, that salvation is a work of God, done according to His will and not according to the will of man.

I have asked you several times to choose one passage of scripture. We will look at it in context, determine the meaning. If we don't agree, then fine. Perhaps we can have a civil discussion without unseemly accusations like you have continuously (in error) tossed around as a child tosses a rock into the air, not knowing or caring what it will hit or where it will land.

You chose one, we will discuss it. I will choose one and we will discuss.

Ladies first...

 

Jd, let's start with your first example:

Romans 3:10-12 Paul is quoting Jewish scripture here.

Psalms 14:1 The fool says in his heart, ";God does not exist."; They are corrupt; their actions are revolting. There is no one who does good. 2 The Lord looks down from heaven on the human race
to see if there is one who is wise, one who seeks God. 3 All have turned away; all alike have become corrupt. There is no one who does good,
not even one.


Jeremiah 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the Lord, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope. 12 Then you will call upon Me and go and pray to Me, and I will listen to you. 13 And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart.

[ July 04, 2005, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: dianetavegia ]

 

CONTEXT IS EVERYTHING:
John 3:19 in CONTEXT says...

 

</font>[/QUOTE]I'll take this one now jd..you can add whatever later.. this too is salvation diane...that is why Christ came. Not to push any one into hell. notice you and tex are the ones saying this. no one else dares say it. It is not ture.

man was already heading to hell. But God sent His Son to SAVE. you still want to jump to salvation...and praise God for salvation diane. I mean we would ALL be going to hell if not for salvation. That is the beauty of grace. God came to save a lost, on his way to hell...no good sinner like me. but why? because he loved me. yes diane..me he didn't come to push me in hell ...a place i should go...because i am a sinner..a sinner diane...and yet God...God the maker of this world.....the one that controls all things...God Himself....God sent His son..to DIE FOR ME!! This is grace diane. I can not claim..well..God knew i would be saved...that is why he sent His son for me. to say that would mean Gods love is based on what i do. and that is not grace diane

this is the context ...read it and see if that is what it says.

yet still we see this one thing...."not deal with what man was saved from". what was man saved from diane? was it hell diane?..well you could save that..but that is not the full picture.
was man saved from...(i'm trying to think of something to add that would make sence here...other then what the bible says)....from what? i can't think of anything to place here...based on the Word of God...other then this word..sin.

yes..God came to saved man from sin. you could say that God came to save man from hell...and in a way He did. But that falls short too. Man is on his way to hell...because of sin. now understand me..not because of mans sins...but because of sin itself. Gods word calls this..dead in sins.

do you even believe in sin diane? i mean surly you do. you seem to have a worry of saying the word. who sins..man or God? I know..you have to say man sins. not because of God. as you and tex seem to think i think. why does man sin?...he has a sin nature.

I know you guys see this. what are you afraid of? are you afraid of the truth? are you holding to a faith that is wrong? just give me one verse..one that says...man is not that dead in sins. Man is not that bad at all. man is not Dead one bit...man is ok...man knows good and evil on his own and with his own will man can choose good or evil...before God tells Himself

you will find this one place in the bible diane

SATAN HIMSELF TALKING when he talked to eve. satan fooled adam and eve in the garden with this line.."you will know good from evil."....as God knows. JD pointed it out long ago. do not fooled by him again.

you said before...but i heard a preacher say....
ok you know what?..you may like this preacher..but if he is not ture to Gods word.....HELLO!!! wake up....

 

sorry..i did not read the end of this note.

i'll sit back for a bit and watch.

 

Diane:

I appreciate you willingness to discuss these issues in a civil tone. We can start wherever you want, with Rom. 3, if you want. But since this thread deals specifically with the topic of "free-will" perhaps you could choose one of your passages that deals with "free-will". If you would rather start with Rom., we can. If you want to start with the passage from Jeremiah 29, we can. Let's choose one, and work our way through it, OK?