Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just a choice between Good and evil?

James

Don't sweat it, James. We usually just jump in wherever we like. It is a public forum.

 

Getting a little late for me. Pick it up again tomorrow.

Happy 4th everyone!

 

</font>[/QUOTE]Bob,

Thanks for this great statement. I have a few books by pink. My college age girl bought me one while at BJU. I have yet to read this last one. But I word like to point out one line....

"There are some of our readers—preachers—who need reminding of this. Christ has commissioned. His servants to preach the Gospel, to make known His “kindness and pity,” not only to those who give evidence of having been awakened by the Holy Spirit, but also to the unregenerate. There is something seriously wrong with any creed or theological system which cramps and fetters the preacher in his free proclamation of the Gospel. They who imagine that the Gospel is only for the “elect,” err grievously."

the reason i want to bring this out is that some have said those that believe as calvin will take on this no care for the lost state. Pink says this many times in the books i have of his. Pink is what i call a "Hard Calvin".....where as I call myself a mild calvin...or some call it soft calvin. This means he holds to more points than I do. yet we see even in a hard calvin one saying this gospel is for ALL.

One great line i will never forget in Pinks book "The attributes Of God"...pink says...

"In one of his letters to Erasmus, Luther said, "Your thoughts of God are too human."

 

Thanks brother for this note. I believe in Gods sovereignty this was meant for me to read. it may not be your intent, but it did rebuke me as I should be.

I have been wrong. This forum has taken time away from my personal walk with God. I try to get into the Word each day for 2 or more hours. My soul needs the feeding of God, like no one else. Yet over the last week i have taken less time to do this, holding a stand in this forum that i feel I must take for my God. While i feel it has been the right stand, it has kept me from the one thing i love the most. This one thing is my one on one time with God. There were 2 days i didn't even read one verse from the Bible. I didn't have time was my thoughts..i needed to take a stand for God. Nothing can replace nor should replace your OWN walk with Him.

This can be seen in my writings. Over the last few postings i got kinda hateful. I need to ease back..chill out...say what God has laid on my heart and not take time away from my own study with Him.

I want at this time to say I'm sorry for the tones i expressed over the last few notes. This was my old sin nature that still lives within me showing its ugly head.

I ask God to forgive me as well as any of you that I have mocked. This is not about me and my views. This is about God and his supremacy and sovereignty which holds a much higher plain of truth then my views.

I can only ask all to get into the Word. God will teach if you remove self and if you only care for knowing Him.

Sorry. Please forgive

In Christ..James

 

James,

In reading what you wrote today I see that you totally misunderstand what I say or you deliberatly ignore it. I'm honestly not sure which.

I do know that I feel, after this length of time, it is deliberate on your part.

Man's free will is in accepting or rejecting Christ.

If man rejects the gift of grace offered by Christ, man dies in sin.

If man accept the gift of grace offered by Christ, man's sins are washed away by the blood of Christ.

The "free will" is accepting or rejecting Christ.

The bible states very clearly that God offers grace to everyone.
The bible also clearly states that not everyone will enter into heaven.

You say that it is not "free will," because God has to call first. God calls everyone, James. Only a few answer the call.

As to why I bring John Calvin and others into it. It is in response to things others say, or into teachings that are repeated which are clearly John Calvin's.

I resort to them because people continue to refuse to listen to the word of God, and continue to turn to Calvin's theories instead.

I've asked, over and over, for people to address certain scriptures. They still refuse to do this, and instead try to turn it into personal attacks.

If you really feel you're standing on holy ground, explain the scriptures that contradict you.

My view doesn't "ignore" any scripture. I don't feel a need to dodge any scripture.

I simply and clearly state. Ephesians says that it was pre-destined that those who follow Christ will be the children of God, it doesn't say, "it was pre-destined who will follow Christ."

 

if i have ignore a verse you have posted, i'm sorry. I have grouped a few verses and made one comment on that group.

So lets do as JD has done...give me a verse I need to address and we will talk about it. Please make this verse about the will of man. I and you both have got into other matters. lets just try our best to stick to mans will. i want to hear what you have to say...not calvin...or any one else.

state the verse you wish to start with. then explain why you feel it is talking about freewill of man. add anything else you want.

i may ask 1 or 2 things to get a better idea of what you are saying if i find a need.

then let me reply. as to what I think of this verse. once this verse is addressed we can move to the next one.

I'll do my best to understand what you are saying.

you go....i'll wait

 

NIV:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

KJV: For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men

Greek Lexicon: Appeared the grace of God saving to all men.

 

is this the end of your statement of debate? did you want to explain anything more? or am i free to ask something before i say what i feel about this verse?

 

There are several verses. What I may or may not ask after that depends on what you say, specifically, about that verse.

 

i'm sorry. I was not say is this all the verses. I can see where you may think that is what I meant. I asking is this as far as you want to go on this one verse...or do you want to add anything more before i ask somethings?

sorry to mislead ...i just do not want to start till i have heard your point you are making if this is it...i'll ask 2 things....and reply.

 

tex...i'm really not trying to be hard nose. i'm just trying to clear my mind...and understand your view.

 

I appreciate that James.

I've tried to understand yours, more than you can possibly imagine. Despite what you probably feel. I've prayed about it, talked to many Christians about, including numerous Pastors from various Baptist churches, other denominations, and representing several seminaries, and I still can't quite wrap my mind around your view.

But I really do want to know what you think that one particular verse actually means.

 

1) Tex i have seen on other post you are not a KJVonly. So for me to use other versions to help explain this ...this would not make you mad..am i right? you posted yourself in the NIV

2) I want to look at the Greek as you have...not sure how to show this because the server does not like greek letters. I know this because I have tried 2 times before to post them. so...i happen to own a web hosting company. I will place the greek on this site with a link...and let all that understands greek to look. This may not be for all people..but i'll try to make it as easy as i can.

so..the 2nd thing is...can you wait on the greek till tomorrow?

next...i will reply

 

Arthur,

I am not KJVO, I am careful about what translations I use though, so please identify which one you use

If you do look up the Greek that is fine.

And yes, I'll be happy to wait.

I can tell you, you're going to fine that "all" is "all" and then you will find some cute note that says, "all probably doesn't mean all," because of the fact that one scripture refers to "all of Judea", and someone's contention that it can't really mean "all" of Judea. However, it is the same Greek used in "all have sinned". So my stance is, I can tell you already, either "all" doesn't mean "all" in all have sinned," or "all means all" in this verse. I won't let people get by with altering the Greek unless it deals with specific tense, context, etc., and they better be clear.

 

well..no i was not going to say that..

please let me say what i think it says...ok?

 

i had started typing a long note. i think i'll wait to send this. long one.


let me just say it this way right now...i believe this verse is telling us about salvation and grace. I see no where in it...the state of man. I could be wrong...but you will need to point this out to me. mans will...what state is it in?

but as for now...on this one verse from the ASV which i fell follows the greek better here.

11 For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

i will show this more later..or tomorrow

 

another version

11 For the grace of God (His unmerited favor and blessing) has come forward (appeared) for the deliverance from sin and the eternal salvation for all mankind.

amplified

 

this one is bad because i hate lose translations

but..it says it close to the way i would

11God's loving kindness has come. It is through that blessing that all men are saved.

 

Well,

I'm not a fan of amplified, I do question its accuracy in a few places, but, I'm going to hold my objections to it until I see if you think it is saying something different than the obvious - that Gods messeage of Grace unto salvation is given to all men. And if you think differently, why you think differently.

 

many test darby..not sure if you do. just throwing this out for your info

11For the grace of God which carries with it salvation for all men has appeared,