Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just a choice between Good and evil?

ok..i'll stop. that is fair.

we will look at the real greek tomorrow.

sound good?

 

That sounds fair.
Good luck on finding a way to post actual greek here though. I tried.

 

yes you are right. I have not been able to.

the only way i know how is post it on my server..and post the link. that is what i will try.

got to go...food is calling my name

 

If you have discovered such a thing, then why don't you show that, by appropriately quoting John Calvin’s words? Of coarse another option would be to deal specifically with any of various passages of Scripture.

 

</font>[/QUOTE]Bob,

Thanks for this great statement. I have a few books by pink. My college age girl bought me one while at BJU. I have yet to read this last one. But I word like to point out one line....

"There are some of our readers—preachers—who need reminding of this. Christ has commissioned. His servants to preach the Gospel, to make known His “kindness and pity,” not only to those who give evidence of having been awakened by the Holy Spirit, but also to the unregenerate. There is something seriously wrong with any creed or theological system which cramps and fetters the preacher in his free proclamation of the Gospel. They who imagine that the Gospel is only for the “elect,” err grievously."

the reason i want to bring this out is that some have said those that believe as calvin will take on this no care for the lost state. Pink says this many times in the books i have of his. Pink is what i call a "Hard Calvin".....where as I call myself a mild calvin...or some call it soft calvin. This means he holds to more points than I do. yet we see even in a hard calvin one saying this gospel is for ALL.

One great line i will never forget in Pinks book "The attributes Of God"...pink says...

"In one of his letters to Erasmus, Luther said, "Your thoughts of God are too human." </font>[/QUOTE]Ultimately, the Scripture is are rule of faith and practice. We have those that would help us understand various thing however, but finally, we are the ones that understand for ourselves.

The like the quote by Luther, and very much think that is a problem in our day. You said, "In one of his letters to Erasmus, Luther said, "Your thoughts of God are too human."

Pink is a favorite of mine, but I have many in that category. Spurgeon is another that has a way of saying things, that gets the point across.

"The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox's gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again."—C. H. Spurgeon

"I have my own private opinion that there is no such thing as preaching Christ and Him crucified, unless we preach what is nowadays called Calvinism. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else. I do not believe we can preach the gospel...unless we preach the sovereignty of God in His dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel unless we base it upon the special and particular redemption of His elect and chosen people which Christ wrought out upon the Cross; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called." ("Spurgeon's Autobiography," Vol.I,Ch.XVI,p.172.)

C. H. Spurgeon: "We are often told that we limit the atonement of Christ, because we say that Christ has not made a satisfaction for all men, or men would be saved. Now, our reply to this is, that, on the other hand, our opponents limit it: we do not. The Armenians say, Christ died for all men. Ask them what they mean by it. Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of all men? They say, "No, certainly not." We ask them the next question--Did Christ die so as to secure the salvation of any man in particular? They answer "No." They are obliged to admit this, if they are consistent. They say "No. Christ has died that any man may be saved if"--and then follow certain conditions of salvation. Now, who is it that limits the death of Christ? Why, you. You say that Christ did not die so as infallibly to secure the salvation of anybody. We beg your pardon, when you say we limit Christ's death; we say, "No, my dear sir, it is you that do it." We say Christ so died that He infallibly secured the salvation of a multitude that no man can number, who through Christ's death not only may be saved, but are saved, must be saved and cannot by any possibility run the hazard of being anything but saved. You are welcome to your atonement; you may keep it. We will never renounce ours for the sake of it."

Pink address the preaching of the gospel clearly here:

Pink, Gospel Preaching Commanded
http://www.bright.net/~bkrajcik/pink.htm#gospel

By grace,
Bob Krajcik
Mansfield, Ohio

 

Bob,

Everyone will argee with the fact that C. H. Spurgeon was a man gifted with words. Not even those that dis-like Spurgeon argue this. I bet tex will even say this. The guy knew how to express himself and always did. I remember reading in packers "knowing God"...a intro by Spurgeon about taking up the studying God. I mean to tell you the truth....this was like the guy spent years choosing just the right words to say..a master piece if i ever saw one. yet packer says Spurgeon wrote this at a very young age..like 20..or something....i'm sure you know how old. anyway...I about fell over when i found out how young he was when he wrote this. maybe you can find that and post it. if i remember right..there is nothing in this short writing where others would disagree with it. but..i maybe wrong. it has been a number of years sense i read this.

anyway..i think even if tex does say he was a great writer..she would not like what he wrote.

anyway...she can speak for herself.

 

Titus 2:11

"For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,"

What are the options for interpretation?

1. That salvation has been granted to all men? Meaning no one goes to hell, but all are saved? Such an interpretation has many problems, since Christ Himself said that there will be those at the judgment who say "Lord", "Lord" and He will say, "depart from me, I never knew you". And many times it is mentioned of those who have rejected Christ will not go to heaven.

So we cannot say that this verse means that all will go to heaven, or that all will be saved, can we? We would sure have to ignore a lot of scripture to hold to that interpretation. Is there any other options?

Let's see what the context reveals to us.

First of all, I see no reference to man's "free-will" in this passage. Unlike Romans or other places, Paul is not even talking about the salvation "process", is he? No, he isn't.

I see nothing about "accepting" Christ, or "calling on the name of the Lord" or "repenting and believing".

If he is not talking about the process of salvation,(and he isn't) could it be he is talking about the "who" of salvation? Yes, that is what he is talking about. The "who" that are saved and "how" they should be living. Let's look at the context to see if that is true.

Notice the "for" at the beginning of the verse. The "for" serves as an explaination of what has just been said. What has just been said?

v. 9-10 "urge bondslaves to be subject to their own masters in everything, to be well-pleasing, not argumentative, not pilfering, but showing all good faith, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in every respect (v.11) for the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men".

There appears to be some connection to "slaves" and "masters" here. Could this be a verse where Paul is saying salvation has been brought to all kinds of people? As in other passages, where he speaks of God not showing partiality as men do, "there is neither Jew nor Greek, bond or free, male of female" and so on.
and it continues...

v.12 "instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age."

What is instructing us? It appears to be God's grace doing the instruction. More likely, he is talking about the "sound doctrine". It could be both, I guess. Who is the "us"? Isn't it believers?

Look at chapter 1:15: "To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled. (v.16) They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable, and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed".

2:1 "But as for you..." Paul makes a distinction here, doesn't he? He is comparing unbelievers and believers. More accurately, he is comparing the conduct of unbelievers with the conduct of believers.

Read the whole of chapter 2. I won't post it all. It is clear that Paul is talking about "how" Christians should conduct their lives, isn't he?

Isn't he saying God's grace is transforming believers? Yes, it must be true. Look how many times the word "purified" is used.

v.14 "who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds."

Christ is "purifying" for Himself a "people" for His own possession. It is interesting that Christ isn't purifying "all" people, is He? No, He is purifying "us", a people who are zealous for good deeds.

The context of the passage is that God's people should live Holy lives. It is God's grace that is instructing us, with sound doctrine; His people, that is believers.

This is not a passage that is discussing the salvation process. There is no reference to accepting Christ, or calling on His name, or repenting, or asking for forgiveness.

When Paul says that "for the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men", it is in reference to what he had just said about how slaves should obey their masters. God has brought salvation to all kinds of men, even slaves, even masters.

That is the only interpretation that makes sense in light of the full context, and the rest of scripture.

I will respect anyone who disagrees. I just ask that you show me how I am wrong by addressing the context of the whole passage.

 

JD,

With all due respect.

The verse says, in plain, ordinary english, and in plain ordinary Greek for that matter,
"That God offers the grace of salvation to all men."

That's it. Pure and simple. In context. "God offers the grace of salvation to all."
It is right there in simple, plain, pure, untwisted scripture.

Since salvation is offered to all, and all are not saved, some obviously rejected. To reject you need free will.

Its a simple concept.

It only becomes complicated when you try to twist it and start that, "Oh, well, it can't mean this," nonsense.

Again, why apply two standards to scripture. Why so easily say, "Ephesians, which says "you" means everyone," but Titus, which says, "all", means "who I'm talking to right now."

Please, I beg you, stop twisting God's holy word.

Either God offers grace to everyone or He doesn't.
Titus says He does.
Did Paul lie?
Did God lie?

God said it right there, in simple, Greek,
"grace unto salvation is offered to all men."

 

Bob,

John Calvin teaches that before the beginning of time God pre-selected who could or could not accept the grace of God.

Ergo, John Calvin teaches that salvation is only really offered to a few people.

He teaches that those who do come to Christ only do so because they have been allowed to do so, and that those who do not do so, cannot do so because they are not allowed to do so.

The obvious conclusion to that is, "some men are condemned to hell, no matter what, despite the cross."

In other words, this communicates, "Christ did not die for all sinners, Christ only died for a few special ones."

That isn't what the scripture teaches.

 

Bob,

In response to your request:

Please tell me how this does not blame God for the sins man commits?

It is a quote from John Calvin:

Whence we assert, that, not only the heaven and the earth and inanimate creatures, but also the deliberations and volitions of men are so governed by his providence that they are directed exactly to their destined end and thus nothing happens fortuitously or contingently. The will of God is the supreme and first cause of all things, because nothing happens but by his command or permission.”

This is the John Calvin quote that literally accuses God of dividing men into "you can be saved, you can't."

"God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation."

[ July 06, 2005, 01:37 AM: Message edited by: TexasSky ]

 

More Calvin Quotes:

"...True it is that the effect of His death comes not to the whole world. "

"But though he died for all, all do not receive the benefit of his death, but those only to whom the merit of his passion is communicated"


And facts about Calvin's life that cause me great concern:

7 years before Michael Servetus was killed, Calvin stated: "If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."

Servetus was a Christian who was accused of heresy, given a mock trial and burned at the stake, Calvin said, "Many people have accused me of such ferocious cruelty that (they allege) I would like to kill again the man I have destroyed. Not only am I indifferent to their comments, but I rejoice in the fact that they spit in my face."

"Whoever shall now contend that it is unjust to put heretics and blasphemers to death will knowingly and willingly incur their very guilt."


Calvin also objected to the Biblical Canon
"But the Romanists have another end in view when they say that the power of interpreting Scripture belongs to councils.... They allege an old catalogue, which they call the Canon,
and say that it originated in a decision of the Church. But I again ask, In what council was that Canon published? Here they must be dumb. Besides, I wish to know what theybelieve the Canon to be. For I see that the ancients are
little agreed with regard to it. If effect is to be givento what Jerome says (Praef. in Lib. Solom.), the Maccabees,Tobit, Ecclesiasticus, and the like, must take their placein the Apocrypha; but this they will not tolerate on any
account."

 

i strongly disagree with your conclusion. On sin.... calvin teaches all men are condemned to hell. i was condemned...you were condemned..as you would say..all means all.

as to the other things about calvin...this is outside of calvinism. but calvin wrote this stuff...yes he did...and i can tell you many more things we wrote.

i know few people that worship the man. calvin said somethings that noone in this day would hold to. what calvinism is...is this. the points he made in one group of books. they only lable it calvinism...for this is who wrote and compiled them.

it is unfair to say becasue you hold to these truths labled calvinism...you hold to his writings on civil affairs...or anything else. if one does follow all things calvin wrote...this would be worshiping a man...or that is how i see it.

name your hero...other then Christ. i bet i can dig up something on him. but give credit where credit is do. calvin hits the nail on the head with mans sin nature

 

I posted a few translations yesterday. I’ll not do this again..but i would like to add, there are more that reads as i posted.

I placed some greek on my server. you may want to look at this 1st and then come back and read the other. If this does not work for you..let me know. I can always scan a picture and place it. here is the link

http://www.iwill2.com/titus/titus.html

One translation is seen below. sometimes the amplified shown below forces the meaning. this makes it good for understanding but not pure in word form. this is a good case to look at. where in the world did they get this “for the deliverance from sin”.?

you did not say tex...but my bet is this is what you do not like about the for the amplified. I can see your point. This is not pure word for word translation. Using word for word translation is not always the best. The RSV got in big heat over the use of young woman and not virgin. The translation if done word for word would be..young woman. What the RSV failed to do..is look at context. Context is King. The context is meaning virgin and should be translated that way.

I think in this case the best translation would be to drop the “deliverance of sin” part. this is forcing a meaning and show never be done. However...the meaning has weight. mankind can be shown to be used as against God..in his sin nature. This we have shown many times. what i’m saying is this. the best translation is something close to the NASB.
  11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men

but the meaning is more like the amplified.
11 For the grace of God (His unmerited favor and blessing) has come forward (appeared) for the deliverance from sin and the eternal salvation for all mankind.

Now lets see if the context can support this.

outline of titus goes like this...
salutation 1:1-4 i will not say anything on this...for this would make my job to easy.
qualifications of elders 1:5-9
characteristics of false teachers 1:10-16
godly behavior for...
older men..2:1-2
older woman ...2:3
younger woman...2:4-5
younger men..2:6-8
slaves...2:9-10

now our text...Grace in behavior or..how to live Godly
this runs from 2:11 - 3:11
you can read for yourself. at the end..is it fair to say men in 2:11 is talking about mankind in its sin? I will add only a few words as you read.

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

((we must do all of this because of our sin nature.))

    13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

((redeemed from iniquity. this was the state where God came to us. the wages of sin is death..Bought with a price))

    15 These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.


chapter 3

1Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,

    2To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

    3For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

((this comes from our sin nature))

    4But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

(( notice the 2 paths..after the sin and darkness...God love appeared with new light and life))

    5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

((regeneration...DEAD in sins...now alive in God))

    6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

    7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

(((Justified..just as if we never sinned...this is though His Grace. but the key is...we had sinned)))

    8This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    9But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

    10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;

    11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

i do not want to make a big deal out of this word “men”. I’m just saying it shows a type of sin..shown everywhere in the Bible. I would not build a doctrine on this one verse alone. This is only my feelings on this one verse. There are better verses that show this.

This is grace....


In Christ Grace...James

 

i'm busy today. I'll check back later...but may not have time to reply to much till tomorrow.

In Christ..james

 

well said JD. much better then my words.

 

JArhtur,

I don't like the Amplified because I've been told by the former President of Southwestern Theological Seminary it is a very poor translation. Since the man held multiple doctorates, and could read Greek and Hebrew as easily as most Americans read English, and since he could point out errors, I accepted his assessment. He was not a King James Only man, by the way. He endorsed both the RSV and the NIV.

The RSV and NIV went back to original Greek and Hebrew manuscripts. RSV translated word for word, but in doing so lost some meaning. NIV noted every time they veered from "word for word," offering in footnotes the word for word, and an explanation for why they translated it as they did.

Amplified is, in my opinion, very well named, because rather than looking at history and applying historical meaning to certain idiomatic expressions, Amplified tried to apply modern idiomatic expressions to ancient text. In doing so, they changed God's word.

Now, that said, are you trying to tell me, with your Greek statement, that Titus 2:11 is not speaking about God Jehovah? Or that He is not referring to all men?

Where did you learn Greek?

For the Grace of God is not referring to the gods of Greece. Where in the world did you come up with that???

The words "all men" translate, literally as "all" and "men". Now you can define men however you want to, but that doesn't change what the text says. The "All" being the key point.

This kind of arguement frightens me because it goes to such lengths to change the actual word of God.

"Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything to try to please them, not to talk back to them, and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive. For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."

Read that in context a few times.
Live your life so that non-believers will be attracted to Christ, for God has offered His saving Grace to all men."

If it was all decided at the dawn of time, why worry about attracting men to God? If, as Calvinists claim, man has no part, whatsoever, as a tool of God, what is the reason for Paul's caution here? If its all a "done deal" these men will never be attracted or they won't be attracted until God taps them on the shoulder - YET - Paul says, God already tapped them on the shoulder.

The Greek (and Paul if you don't debate that Paul wrote this letter) used the PAST tense.
The Grace of God has appeared to all men.

God's grace was offered to all.

Live your life so as to make the teachings of Christ attractive. What did Christ teach? That He is the way to salvation. Why should that be attractive? Because God offered His grace to all men.

Why aren't all men saved?

Because men can reject that gift of salvation.

 

Going on.

What do you think 2nd Peter 3:9 means?

NIV: "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

KJV: 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Greek Lexicon:
9 not is slow the Lord of the promise, as some slowness deem, but is longsuffering towrd you, not purposing any to persish, but all men to repentance to come.

 

in the greek language the greek word for appeared is often used when speaking of greek gods coming forth..showing themselves to man. i post only as a understanding of the word. i can show you post to back this up...but i’m sure you know this