Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just a choice between Good and evil?

that is because we are talking in this verse about salvation and grace. you may not agree with the way i see it. but i read it just as you. God die for all. He invites all to come. this tex is salvation

i bring up the mankind.....for this is the only link...that one can find about mans will.

i ask one more time..is man dead in sins? or not?

this has been the whole point...from OP on. you post salvation verse...we say that is nice tex..how about the subject? how about mans will?

 

this one is the same....tex..salvation

please help me by showing where this address mans will?
to me this looks like the Lord will.
repent from what tex?

are you afraid to say sin tex? say it one time.

 

i try to address everything you post. on or off the point.

can you just show a little respect and address this one thing.

i have ask you 300000000000 times. one verse..just one..on the state we call mans will. none yet.
i have asked 30000000002 times do you agree man is dead in sins...or not?
still nothing

yet you post veres i agree with. thanks tex.

just one time...that is all i ask

 

JArthur -

Please don't be rude.
I have said, over and over that "all have sinned." In fact, I pointed out that the same word that says God's message of grace has appeared to all men is the same word used in the phrase "all have sinned."

I am convinced that free-will is why men sin.

God created perfection. He created man in His own image. In creating perfection, He gave man the right to choose to obey God or to sin. That is what sin is, disobedience to God.

Satan did not force Eve or Adam to sin.
God did not force Eve or Adam to sin.

They had God's words: "but God did say, "You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden and you must not touch it, or you will die."

They had Satan's words: "You will not surely die," the serpent said to the woman. "For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."

They chose to eat the fruit. They chose to disobey God. They chose to sin.

God did not force them to sin.
Satan did not force them to sin.
Temptation was there, choice was there.

"When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing ot the eye and also desireable for gaining wisdom she took some and ate it."

God didn't cause that.
Man chose to disobey - and the ability to choose is freewill.

free will
n.
The ability or discretion to choose;

The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

fate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ft)
n.

The supposed force, principle, or power that predetermines events.
The inevitable events predestined by this force.


Divine Will is clear in 2 Peter. Divine Will is that all men repent and be saved.

All men do NOT repent, all men are NOT saved. They are NOT constrained by divine will. The absence of divine will is free will. If divine will is carried out, all men are saved. If free will is allowed, men accept Christ or reject Christ.


They follow the flesh, they follow Satan, they choose to do evil.

No one makes them.
God certainly doesn't make them.

Since the Garden of Eden God has given us the ability to repent and follow His will, or the ability to ignore His will. We seem to constantly make the wrong choice.

We love to fall back on the verses that talk about being born in sin. That seems comforting doesn't it? It isn't our fault! It is Eve's or Satan's or God's!

But is IS our fault.

We may be born in sin, but God offered repentance to each and every one of us.
God offered salvation to each and every one of us.

It is NOT God's lack of love that sends men to hell.
It is NOT God's pre-determined-pre-destined will that prevents John from accepting Christ as savior. It is JOHN'S free will, John's ability to ignore the Holy Spirit, that sends John to Hell.

God predetermined: If you accept Christ, you will become a Child of God. If you reject Christ, you will go to hell with Satan and his angels.

When you think about it, that makes perfect sense. You suffer the fate of the one you choose to follow. Choose Christ, you enjoy the rewards of Christ's victory. Choose Satan, you suffer the agony of his defeat.

The choice is yours though.
God didn't draft you into Satan's army.
God recruited you for Christ's army.

 

TexasSky

You said, "Since salvation is offered to all, and all are not saved, some obviously rejected. To reject you need free will."

The words "offered to all" are not in this text. The words "rejected" and "freewill" are not in this text. You are reading those words into the text to try to make it fit what you want it to say.

The context is clear, if you will accept it. 2v11 is right in the middle of a long passage concerning Christian conduct. Paul had just spoken of slaves and masters. He uses the word "for" to connect this thought with what he had just said. That is the context!!!

Paul is saying the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all kinds of men.

Yes, "all men" can mean "all kinds of men" if that is the context. Why don't you ask the Seminary president you know. If he reads Greek as well as you say, he will know this is true.

 

JArthur,

I'm sorry. I thought you were done with Titus 2:11

So, you are saying that "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appered to all men," isn't offering grace to all men?

You just think it "shows up and vanishes"? You think the Holy Spirit is taunting?

Wow.
Wow.

I can't even .. begin to wrap my mind around a theology that teaches that kind of game playing on God's part.

I mean, wow.

I think we should just stop here.

 

if this is rude i'm sorry.
one verse tex...just give me one.

you said alot of things..now back it up.

or..just say man is dead in sins...or not dead

just a yes..or a no.

again.i'm sorry if this is rude...i no of no other way to ask.

show some respect and post plz

thanks

 

James

Thanks for the compliment. I appreciate your heart for God's Word and desire to understand it fully.

 

this is why i have siad you do not read my post.

i have always said..God dies for all. read them and see

you fly by the sin part.

 

TexasSky

You said: "free will
n.
The ability or discretion to choose;

The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will."

There is the definition that you hold to, that you are giving as supported by scripture. No external circumstances, unconstrained by an "agency" such as "divine will".

John 8:34 "Truly, truly I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin (v.36) If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed."

What is this.."..the Son shall make you free..." That means divine intervention, an external "agency"

Matt 11:27 "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

What is this? Looks like divine intervention, an outside influence in action. "anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." Looks like Jesus Christ using His divine will (the words are actually in the text) to "reveal" the Father to whomever He chooses. Could it be true? Yes, the words are plain, and in context.

John 1:12-13 "But as many as received him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of (the will of) God.

What is this...God intervening. They are born of the "will of God". God actually causing them to be born.

But wait, what is this..."nor of the will of man". Could that mean "freewill" is a lie staight out of the mouth of Satan. Yes it is, a lie straight out of the mouth of Satan.

Look at Gen 3. What is the forbidden tree? The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The lie was they would be "like God" knowing good and evil. Meaning they could choose the good and spurn the evil.

Yes, "free-will" is a lie right out of the mouth of Satan.

Now TexasSky, I want you to show me one verse of scripture where the word "freewill" is used to refer to man choosing God for salvation. Don't "read into" the text. I want to the the actual word "freewill" used, not "choose", not "accept", not "believe", I want to see the word "freewill" used.

If the word "freewill" isn't in scripture, and the concept is clearly refutated by many scriptures, why do you still hold on to it?

 

i wonder if tex will post on this forum again.
the last time i held her to the subject she stopped posting. i let her have some room..to hear her side...and she post more verses on the gospel....nothing on mans sin

the reason is....well...you figure for yourself.
mans words are many...but Gods word rules over all

this saddens me...for i did not want her to run. All i wanted is for her to read the full message....get into it every day.

God is love...but God hates sin...
let me say a church needs to preach both. I do preach both mans sin..and Gods love. I may have come across as not. Sin is ugly to look at. Its harder for us to say it is part of us.


One sad part is that because we could never get past sin...i never showed how great Gods love is indeed. Freewill doctrine cheapens Gods love. It says God died for me because He saw something in me to die for. If that were ture...is this saying God is only good for our love back to Him? I hope not.

The Bible tells us that God died for all men and calls all to him. This i think is one calling. You may point to paul and say...this guy had a calling above my calling. I think you can make a point that some have more times in which they can hear Gods message....or in pauls case a clear message.

I was born in a family that went to church all the time...i had 10 bibles or more sitting around the house...the radio played church songs...my mother and father were saved...i had a good preacher. We read Gods word every night. I mean..i had many times that God reached out to me. this is not the same in all families. Some never hear the word. some never hear a message. yet Gods word tells us that in each of us there is a desire.
some try to fill this with making money..other use drugs...in the end all of these things worship self. sin makes us look to ourselives...and never see God we think we can do it on our own....just as adam thought he was getting when he ate the apple.

those that have not heard His message from His Holy Word...still have Gods creation. God gave man many ways to know Him. Salvation is for all.

i took Christ as my Lord...yet i know He placed his Word in this world so I would know of Him. I heard messages so I would know of Him. God made the world in such a way that man should wonder....there must be a God.

This was done by God. This was done for man. this is Gods own calling

some say there is 2 callings....one for the world...and one for the elect. I see this as filling in the gaps. One calling..to all man.

how about the elect of God? it shows many times in Gods word...God choose us. Yes..it does. God choose with who he would share his love with so many times or choose some to hear the gospel clearer then others. paul he hit over the head. i had many times he shared his love with me. God choose to share his love in only the form of creation to some. but if it was paul....or me...or the guy only with creation to see...God shared his love to all. God calls all to him

we have no choice to choose god...till we see Him as a choice. yes..some live and die..never even thinking of God. in sins they are born...in sins they die. Yet God has come. John chapter 1...

in the beginning was the word. This word.."word"..is not just a simple word. logos had much more meaning to the greeks then just the simple use. the greeks had often said...what would God say...if he showed himself. this is what they called...the logos...meaning from a word from god..or a hearing from god. John is saying...hey guys...this word you guys have debated over....this hearing....this logos...He has come....He has shared his love. It is Christ. and this is what he says...

Salvation so rich...yet free...and he did it all for me.
was blind, dead me leading me....did not know He washed sins free
in sin i did not know of Him...he called..and said please enter in
i heard..and did not come that day...yet he would not let my soul lay.
he called once more...i heard again...and this is when i let him in

He saves...he saves...i'm so glad its Him that saves.
my salvation is not of me...for I would be lost again


this is my full view. I have verse to back this up. not as many as calvin...but i hold firm on this. I know this is outside the subject..yet i wanted to say it.

We are dead in our sins...God reached out to all man...some do not listen..and die in sins. this does not mean they sinned. this only means they did not listen to Gods message.
hebrews says this in short form

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

   2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

God reached on diffrent ways...he gave us the law. he gave us a nation that he recorded showing their need of Him....this is why we have this in the OT...this is a message to us..from God...saying..you can not make it on your own..you need God. the law points at us...you can not be so good you can just slip into heaven...this is God reaching out to the world. He gave the prophets...he gave us His word. to those that do not know of this..romans says...he wrote the law..on there hearts. right away you may say..this is mans will. nope...we can study that and see

but it does show God reaching out

maybe someday we can talk about it.


In christ...james

 

She's probably dizzy from you guys going in circles over and over and over and over.... PLUS, some people DO have lives, you know!

 

i just hope you and tex will someday look at sin..and call it what is is.

God's love is great. what are we saved from? sin

 

JArthur,

You aren't even making sense now, and your last paragraph belongs right up there with, "I don't see an airplane in the bible so I'm not gonna use one!"

The bible describes free will, it would have been nice if God, in order to please you, had said, "James you have free will," but instead God said, "IF you will follow me," "IF you believe," "IF you call upon me," "If you profess me before men,".....

You know, I could make the same ridiculous demand for you and say, "Show me where it uses the phrase, "I only offer salvation to a few," but that's not in there either.

So lets stop having temper tantrums and talk like adults again.

Freewill is a component of choice.

According to what you teach - God decided, before the dawn of time, who would or would not be saved, who would or would not follow His will. The bible shows where we have choice. Again, look at Adam and Eve - They were not dead in sin when they sinned. They were pure and holy UNTIL they sinned. They BROUGHT sin into this world. If you disagree with that, show me how you read Genesis differently.

Examples of choice? Look at Joshua 24:14
"Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your forefathers worshiped beyond the river and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. But if serving the Lord seems undesireable to you, then choose yourselves this day who you will serve wether the gods your forefathers served beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord."

Now, why do you think, if God determined before the dawn of time, Joshua was allowed to chose who he would follow but Christians aren't allowed to choose to follow Christ?

Why do you think we are told to pray for others?
Why do you think we are cautioned to watch our behavior lest we turn others away from God?
Why do you think he warns us NOT to be the cause of a child's sin if HE is the cause?

Why did he give the great commission?
Why did he "desire that all men repent and come unto salvation," when he is the almighty, if he did not give them the choice of disobedience?

John uses If in relation to salvation.
1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us all from unrighteousness." That's IF. IF is a dependent clause. "IF" means there is choice.

Look at 2 Peter 3:15 "Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation."

See to it that no one misses the grace of God, and that no bitter root grows up to cause trouble and defile many Hebrews 12:15

Do you believe that man must make a personal committment to Christ in order to be saved?

It really all boils down to a one question.
You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, adn to teh sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel. See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven? Hebrews 12:22b25

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is being sure of what we hope for, and certain of what we do not see.
Hebrews 11:3 By faith we undersatnd that the universe is formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

Read that again. I think, over and over and over, I've been told men don't seek God, but the bible seems to disagree with that.

If we do not have free will, why are there warnings against falling away in the bible?

Hebrews 3:7 "So, as the Holy Spirit says, 'Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion during the time of testing in the desert where your fathers tried me, and for 40 years saw what I did. This is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, "Their hearts are always going astray and they have not known my ways."

You claim the Holy Spirit IS what hardens their hearts. Yet, the Holy Spirit, the word of God, says it is MAN who hardens his heart.

God wants our love. Love MUST be free to be love. Forced love is just rape. God wants more than that from us.

Do you or do you not believe, that man must make a personal committment to Jesus Christ?

 

i see no reason to go on with this.

all i have asked for is one verse mans will is free...or showing man is not dead in his sins

you said it...thanks...well...not a verse..but you said he is in sins

this was the 1st time
now you added a lot of stuff i never said....but you did say man is in sin....or close to it.

thanks..

You can read my other post to see what I really said..not what tex says i said. This has gone on to long. it has been fun. I should have dropped out long ago. but this is my last post for real. for no verses have been posted showing man can come and go as he pleases. this is FREEWILL. anything else is only part freewill..and i have no idea what part freewill is.

so...with that said...i close my debate. for those that stay on...keep asking for a verse. there must be one...or maybe this mans logic at any rate.....i'm gone....

In Christ..james

 

I gave you verses DAYS ago and you kept repeating dead in his sins when the verses say dead TO his sin.

I think TexasSky and I are wasting time.

Diane

 

NOTICE THE CORRECTION TO YOUR WORDING! YOU KEEP SAYING: you saw the verses of God saying man is dead in his sins. Do you believe man is dead in his sins? is this something i made up?...or is it in the bible?

READ THE VERSES AGAIN AND NOTE THE BOLDED AREAS.

 

I agree with you Diane, we're wasting our time, and you're correct regarding scripture. "In" and "To" are different words.

 

JD,

That is not my defintion of free will. That IS the definition. Straight out of the dictionary. So yes, I WILL hold to it. Are you going to "redefine" the dictionary now to try to make your point?

If so, then by ALL means define your words BEFORE you post that we can figure out what language you are speaking.

 

JArthur,

You write: "in the greek language the greek word for appeared is often used when speaking of greek gods coming forth..showing themselves to man. i post only as a understanding of the word. i can show you post to back this up...but i’m sure you know this"

Now, let me get this straight.

You are actually trying to justify your position in this post by claiming that Paul was NOT speaking of Jesus Christ/God the Father OR The Holy Spirit, but rather that he was ACTUALLY saying (PER YOU) "For the grace of the greek gods that brings salvation has appeared to all men?"

???????????????????????????????????????????

Come on!