Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just a choice between Good and evil?

Jeffrey,

I think you and Diane are disagreeing over semantics. I think what she is saying (please correct me if I'm wrong, Diane), is that God doesn't orchestrate and dictate and plan out as part of His divine will evil actions.

 

AH, Jeff, so God ALLOWS evil but doesn't ALLOW those He created in Their own image to choose salvation or damnation? Is that what I'm understanding you to say?

 

I had a Sunday School teacher once who, as a young man with young children, lost his wife to a drunk driver. He said that he hated it when people would come to him and say, "It's God's will," and would say, "It was not God's will for some drunk to rob my children of a mother. My God is not cruel like that. My God took the mess left by a man who ignored God, and produced beauty out of that mess."

 

Yes I agree Jeffrey,

Some of us place to much power in the hands of Satan. Satan does have power. Yes, we are in a war. But God is in complete control and our focus should be on Him. If He were not in complete control, God would not be God now would He? Satan can do only as God allows.

God gave Satan a little time to pick on Job. Why? Was Job in sin? No! Then why? Because God is God and He can do as He wills. Some say God wanted to prove to Satan that Job would still follow Him. God has to prove nothing to no one. God is God and He can do as He pleases.

Did you ever notice that though all that Job went though, Job never said satan was to blame. The Bible clearly says this was Satan doing this to Job. But Job only care was to make sure he had the right relationship with his God. Job only cared about this because, Job knew that God is over all, and God has more power then Satan. God is GOD and this means God is in Complete control. The devil made me do it...is just another way for the satan to get us to turn from God and focus on Satan.

It’s easy to praise God when things go well. If we fall into sin why take that extra step and blame satan....why give satan any honor at all....just look to God and restore your fellowship. When something very bad happens to us...why think about if Satan did it or not. Just go to God.

As to the question at hand...We often think of Evil in a different light then what the Bible shows us. Like...that person is evil...would mean that, that person is not just bad....but he is very very bad...maybe the worst kind of person. But Picking evil can be just doing nothing. Man is in a fallen state when he comes in this world. Man does not have to do ANYTHING to go to Hell. To choose God we must know of God. Many do not know Him and by doing nothing are on their way to Hell.

In Christ..James

 

I said nothing about choosing salvation in my previous post. My answer would be No.

 

The sins we commit against God are ours and ours alone.

 

Free Will.

 

"Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just a choice between Good and evil? "

Sounds like a question for a lawyer. Thankfully that excludes me.

 

If God doesn't love everyone, does this mean I can use my free will to disobey His command to love everyone...just so I can be more like Him? Or do I not have free will, in which case there is no need for any commands to be given from God. Commands entail the ability to obey or disobey of our own free will.

 

Free Will. </font>[/QUOTE]And it's also "free will" that I'm posting right now when I have other reponsibilities to attend to. Have a good day Diane.

 

So you don't have a problem with God overpowering your will after salvation, so that you don't loose your salvation? Or do you believe a Christian will always choose God after salvation and never sin again?

 

I have serious questions about all of this.

If there is no free will involved - If it is all, totally, 100% about predestination - what difference would it make if man accepted or rejected Christ? Why did Christ come? Why bother to die on the cross? Why bother to teach or send out disciples? Why should the early Christians suffer?

What was the purpose of the new testament?

And - did you know that predestination is, originally, a Catholic teaching?

 

Never sinning again has nothing to do with our salvific condition! Only Jesus is perfect!

Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.


Philippians 3:12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.

Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

Hebrews 7:26 For such a High Priest was fitting for us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and has become higher than the heavens;

John 8:46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me?

Hebrews 2:10 For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

2 Corinthians 12:9: "But he said to me, ‘My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.'"

 

James 3:2 For we all stumble in many things. If anyone does not stumble in word, he is a perfect man, able also to bridle the whole body.

James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

Yes? No? maybe so?

 

And where does 2 Peter 3:9 fit in?

2 Peter 3:9 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society


9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

I understand the questions. I went through them myself. But I cannot ignore the clear teaching of scripture on this matter. Predestination is, originally, a biblical teaching.

Free-will is a Pelagian teaching from the 4th century (I think) in his debates with Augustine.

You said, "What difference would it make if man accepted or rejected Christ?" The difference between heaven and hell.

"Why did Christ come?" To complete the plan of God, which is to have a people to call His own, to worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

"Why bother to die on the cross?" To pay the penalty for sins, to demonstrate His perfect love for us, to reconcile us to God.

"Why bother to teach or send out disciples?"
That we may be priviledged to partcipate in the plan of God that brings about salvation to men.

"Why should the early Christians suffer?" To identify with the sufferings of Christ, to purge the church of those who are "pretenders" and will not stand to the end, to bring judgement upon the world for rejecting Christ and His teachings.

"What is the purpose of the New Testament?" It is the Word of God that is used by the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth, to serve as our only true source of the special revelation of God. Even on subjects that are difficult to understand fully, such as predestination.

To say we have no free will, does not mean we do not have a human will. The human will is subject to all sorts of influences; including the sin in our own lives, the sins of others, Satan and his Demons, etc.

Free will implies that we can choose God anytime we want. That is inconsistent with passages such as "no one can come to the Father unless the Spirit draws him."

Predestination puts salvation in the hands of the creator of the universe, where it belongs, not in the hands of men.

 

woooo now brother. predestination is in the Bible and has always been there. This is where the debate aways goes south. We can not understand the ALL of God. The fact is both mans will to choose and Gods own choosing is in the Bible. It all depneds on where you start.

If you start with man you have a choice made by man. As in my life. When I was took Christ into my life..I know for a fact i choose Him. I heard the messages. I was sorry for My sins and I asked God to save me.

Oh the other hand...when we start with God, we see God choosing. Again in my life...I look back now at my day of salvation and see the hand of God working. God placed that person in my life to tell me of His love. God used others to speak with me. God gave His Word to man kind...and somehow it got in my hands. Not all have read the Bible. Not all have had others tell of Him. Why me? It was nothing I did.

Why the debate goes south is at this point we claim one view and try to explain the other away. Why? Because both veiws do not fit in our eyes. But both views do fit in Gods eyes.

God choose me...and I choose to serve Him. Both happened..both are in the Bible. We may not understand them...but do not throw one out the door.

But i still say there is no FREE WILL...

in Christ...james

 

James said "But i still say there is no FREE WILL..."

Got a pretty strong woman there holding you down and making you type all that eh?

 

James,

I agree that God sends the Holy Spirit to guide.
And I agree that God places the people in our lives to teach us about him. I even believe that God chose, in advance, who He would send the Holy Spirit to. However, you just said, you CHOSE to serve him - A choice means free will.

As to what I understand from others - they are saying you didn't even have a choice about whether or not you would serve him. If you didn't have a choice, to follow him after hearing the word, then the cross really was for nothing because you weren't really being saved. There was, apparently, nothing to save you from.

If man doesn't even have to accept Christ as Lord and Savior - why do we bother with any of the teaching?