Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just a choice between Good and evil?

One more thing and I'm going to eat supper.

The one line listed above is where Calvinism goes wrong.

they say...yes i can prove predestination and can indeed do that from the Bible. But they go on and say...then sence this is ture we really do not have to do anything...cause God will save whom He wishes.

Aaaaaw NO! Now that is not in the Bible. The Bible tells us we should share His Good News. It tells of His love for the whole world. It says go..GO INTO ALL THE WORLD.

predestination is Gods deed. Our deed is to tell others.

ok...its food time..

In Christ....james

 

Removed because James made my point while I was typing this.

 

Sky

I am not saying you don't have to choose Jesus. I am saying you cannot choose unless God fundamentally changes your nature, so that you can see the repulsiveness of sin, so that you can repent, so that you can be given faith toward Jesus. Yes you choose Jesus, and yes you choose to obey. You only do so in response to what God has already done in your life. Had God not chosen you, and changed you by the Spirit, you would not have chose Christ, in fact, you are not able to do so.

If God chooses you, and changes you, then you will choose Christ, and you will repent and believe and be saved. There are none that were changed that decided, "Ya know, I really think I'll use my free will here and reject Christ". No, once you are changed, once you are under conviction of the Holy Spirit, and Christ is given as the way of life, you run to Him as fast as you can and cling to Him as your Savior and Lord.

 

I'm really, really, really have a hard time with this.

It really, really, really looks to me like you folks are telling me that the Baptist chuches you attend are teaching you personal committments to Christ are not required toward salvation. That faith isn't required. That repentence isn't required. That belief isn't required.

I can't even wrap my mind around the idea that this is coming out of Baptist churches.

That sounds more Catholic to me than the Catholics I know.

 

What James is talking about is called "hyper-calvinism" and it is contrary of scripture. Most of what people reject to as "calvinism" is really "hyper-calvinism".

 

"No, once you are changed, once you are under conviction of the Holy Spirit, and Christ is given as the way of life, you run to Him as fast as you can and cling to Him as your Savior and Lord."

I think this is the crux of the matter. I, and many others, believe that this conviction of the Holy Spirit is given to ALL. Then when we respond in faith...God begins the life long process of changing us.

 

I hope you don't think I am saying personal faith, repentence, commitments or belief are not required for salvation. I think I said clearly they are, but they are a response to the gift of grace, which is from God.

 

jd, I think you are addressing someone else right?

 

Hi James

Great observation. I think you are right. The crux of the matter is whether God gives it all to those whom He chooses, fundamentally changing our natures, to which we will (without fail) respond in faith and salvation,

or

Whether God gives "generally" to all the same conviction, and it is then up to the individual to make that final choice.

I think scripture clearly teaches the first and rejects the second.

 

Yes, I was addressing Sky.

 

ok

 

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

ALL are called according to HIS purpose but not all respond.

 

Diane

The gospel is a general call to all, and it should go into all the world. And in the end, it will serve to condemn all who reject, but salvation comes by regeneration and conviction and transformation wrought by the Holy Spirit.

 

I know you're addressing Diane, but I believe a general call has to be sincere. A general call to all would be insincere if God has ordained beforehand that most of those who hear the general call simply cannot respond.

 

The whole history of the Bible contains calls that God knew people would reject. The prophets preached God's word to the people of Israel, promising them that if they would return to God, He would return to them. God was sincere. God also knew they would reject Him.

God gave the Israelites the Law, telling them if they would keep the whole law they would have salvation. He knew that none would keep the law. God was sincere, and the law served it's purpose. It reveals sin and shows the need for a savior.

The gospel goes out to all the world. It says, "He is the Son of God, believe on Him for eternal salvation". The call is sincere, but the entire world has rejected, and are thus convicted and condemned by the gospel.

But God, in His mercy, predestined some for salvation. And those He predestined, He called by the gospel and by His Spirit, and those He called, He transformed, and those He transformed, He gave faith to believe onto life. And He shall keep them for the day of His return.

God is sincere. The gospel is sincere. Mankind has rejected God and His gospel. God in His mercy is still faithful to preserve those He has chosen. I thank God for His mercy, for not allowing me to continue in rejection and rebellion, for changing me, transforming me. It is all His work, none of mine. Therefore, I ascribe all the glory to Him.

 

Then jpcanaday, you're admitting you believe God chose whom to hate and condemn to eternal damnation no matter how they may have responded, if given the chance. Is that your stand or am I misunderstanding you?

 

No. You are misunderstanding me. You assume that God is pushing people away that are kicking and screaming to be saved. The whole world has rejected God. There is none righteous, there is none that seek after God.

God chose to save some. The ones He choses, He predestined for salvation and wrought the miracle that is regeneration, conviction, conversion and faith. That is nothing but a declaration of the great love and mercy of God.

 

Then you ARE saying...
God chose to damn some. The ones He doesn't choose, He predestined for eternal damnation and refused them the miracle that is regeneration, conviction, conversion and faith. That is nothing but a declaration of the hatred and partiality of God.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To dispute your reasoning....

Is it really 'love' if that love is programmed into the heads of the 'chosen' such as the 'calvin' folk?

 

I believe this is the correct view of "free will."

I believe this is the mistaken view of "free will."

 

Amen! Good illustration!