Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just a choice between Good and evil?

Romans 9:15+

"For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scritpure says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I raised you up, to demonstrated My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.' So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?' On the contrary, who are you O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, 'Why did you make me like this,'will it?' Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared before hand for glory?"

Ephesians 1:5+

"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved....(v.11)also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will"

God has free-will. We do not. Why does man always want to focus on himself, and not on God.

Yes, the love which we have for God (and for fellow believers and for those in the world) is genuine love. But remember, we love God because He first loved us. Our love is a response to what God has done in our lives.

 

Is it really 'love' if that love is programmed into the heads of the 'chosen' such as the 'calvin' folk? </font>[/QUOTE]Diane,

I feel you do not have a complete understanding of sin and mans sin nature. I say this because you post many verse of salvation that shows God asking man to come to Him, or as some say..”Gods Calling”. All these verses you have posted are very good verses. All show that God has extended His call to the while world. Some call this Gods general calling. I do not think anyone would disagree with what you are saying in that light.

What you have not dealt with or choose ..(choose?? ok you got me..freewill..just joking) ..anyway..choose not to address is Gods self-existence, self-sufficiency nature which is in absolute authority and rule over His creation. To be sovereign, God must also be all-knowing, all-powerful and absolutely free to do as He pleases. If we limit Him in any area He is not Sovereign. Sovereignty is greater than any attribute of God which the word sovereign reigns over.

For instance

You have spoke well of Gods love. Gods love is very great. If God is not fully in control, circumstances could disable Gods love and make it useless for us. All attributes of god hang on this. Look at God the Judge. Can God be judge and we then have complete justice if God is not in complete control? a few verses..1 chron. 29: 11-12, ps. 24:1, ps 46:10, ps. 47:7

The real problem with the sovereignty of God is from mans view. We know of His calling in our life. We made a choice. If you are saved, then you did in fact make that choice. This however would be wrong to say it was our free will that choose God.

God in His sovereity places kings in place to rule. Wait..i voted for my leaders...yes but God placed them there. The Bible tells us that God will put hooks in the jaws of Gog and Magog and pull them down on israel. It may not be worded just like that...but something close. The Bible tells of God choosing Isaac and hating isau. Hating? Yes, hating.

These are but a few instances of Gods sovereignty at work. This shows God is in control...where as your verses speak of His love.

In salvation no one can say God loved me because i am good and now I’m going to heaven where I belong. We all belong in hell. We all have sinned. 1 sin or 1,000,000,000 sins...it does not matter. “The rages of sin is death”...hell should be our home.

When Adam fell into sin all of mankind fell with him. “in sin did my mother conceive me.” Therefore..”all have sinned and come short”. Man is complete helpless..and has no knowledge of God.....“none seek after God”. God did not have to send His son. Man was loss. Man was on his way toward hell. Man deserves hell. This could be the end of the story. But God in His love sent His son. WHY? ...What is man that thou are mindful of him?” I don't know why. But i do know this.
It is because of Gods sovereignty that we have Gods love.

Gods sovereignty is in fact real and makes everything else about God reality.

You ask..Is it really Love? Yes... this is Gods love.


In Christ...James

 

[/QUOTE]Is it really 'love' if that love is programmed into the heads of the 'chosen' such as the 'calvin' folk? [/QB][/QUOTE]
i should add..

no...not programmed. and who is calvin? you mean that cartoon guy?

and...this goes way back......someone said..."james you must have a stong lady beside you...because of what you say about no freewill.

yes...sorry..i didn't know my web cam was still on. I didn't know you could see my 400 lb woman

(( i am dead if my wife sees this))

Peace...James

 

No one is arguing that God is less than all knowing or less than all powerful. Allowing man to choose to follow Him or not is not relinquishing His Holy Authority. Is God any less than an earthly king who wants those to follow out of loyalty rather than fear?

God called us "children," and in the Garden of Eden, God allowed Adam to choose obedience or disobedience. Christ was tempted by Satan and Christ chose to follow the will of God.

We are called by God, and allowed to accept or reject Christ. That is free will.

I know my children. I call them, and I know when they will or will not respond when I call them. God calls us, and He knows whether we will or will not respond to His call.

Revelation 3:20 - Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

(This was written regarding children, however, in God's eyes we are all children, and in reality, we all begin life as children.)
Matthew 18:14 - Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

God Loved the World. Not parts of it.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


2 Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

Romans 9:15+

"For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

 

BINGO.

Maybe the original post should say: How can you take something so pure and simple and turn it into something dissected and complicated?

jd...my heartfelt sympathies to you also. If I know anything it is that God has always been in control. I am unsure where you read that I would think God was helpless.

I believe in free will, I see it exercised all that time with people that we arrest. Nobody is making them do it. I see it in the faces of the people who serve meals in the shelters here. Nobody is making them do it.

Do you follow God's word because you feel if you do not, something bad will happen? Or do you do it willingly because you KNOW it is right?

 

Well can I remember the manner in which I learned the doctrines of grace in a single instant. Born, as all of us are by nature, an Arminian, I still believed the old things I had heard continually from the pulpit, and did not see the grace of God. When I was coming to Christ, I thought I was doing it all myself, and though I sought the Lord earnestly, I had no idea the Lord was seeking me. I do not think the young convert is at first aware of this. I can recall the very day and hour when first I received those truths in my own soul-when they were, as John Bunyan says, burnt into my heart as with a hot iron, and I can recollect how I felt that I had grown on a sudden from a babe into a man-that I had made progress in Scriptural knowledge, through having found, once for all, the clue to the truth of God. One week-night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher's sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, How did you come to be a Christian? I sought the Lord. But how did you come to seek the Lord? The truth flashed across my mind in a moment- I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make this my constant confession, "I ascribe my change wholly to God."

by

C. H. Spurgeon

 

My experience with Christ was very different from C. H. Spurgeon's.

Or perhaps my interpretation of it is very different.

God sent parents, grandparents, Aunts, neighbors to tell me of the love of Christ. He laid the foundation through them.

I believe, with all my heart, Satan sent a few "Christians" to keep me from listening. The kid in my school yard whose "you're going to hell because you cut your hair," and the women gossiping about the fact that my dress was homemade convinced me that the story of Christ was all a lie.

I believe, with all my heart, that God undid the damage those Christians did by sending Dr. Prince into my life. A wonderful man who told me, "Christ really does love you, and He really does care, and if you ever need Him, all you have to do is reach out to Him. He won't force Himself on you. He is standing at the door, knocking, and waiting for you to let Him into your heart."

And, the night I prayed, I told Christ, honestly, that I didn't really understand it all. I didn't get how a heart could have a door and a key, and I didn't really get why Christ would love me, but that I knew Dr. Prince wouldn't lie to me, and that I knew my Grandma and Daddy and Mama wouldn't lie to me, and that I wanted to love Jesus back.

In that instant, darkness became light. That moment, "faith" because "substance." I went from, "I don't understand, but I accept," to knowing. He had been waiting, patiently, lovingly, but he had waited.

The choice was mine.

He nudged, He prodded. He filled in the potholes that people dug in the road, but He left it to me.

In the bible, time after time, Christ approached men and said, "Follow me," and they did. At times they said, "Give me a minute, Lord," and He said, "No, I have to come first." He didn't, though, ever, force any of them to follow Him.

God wants our love.
Forcing it would cheapen what He offers us.
Manipulating it, making us return His love, making us return obedience without free will, would be hollow. God deserves and demands more than hollow.

If there is no free will - Christians would never sin again. There would be no need to bring anyone back to the fold.

If there is no choice in salvation - Christ died for nothing, and I know better. He died for me.

 

TexasSky, Emeraldctyangel, dianetavegia, and others...

1st I want to think you for upholding Gods love. Texas you and dianet have posted many wonderful verses that speak of God and His unmatched love toward man. I love the song...”The love of God, how rich how sure, how marvelous His grace.....”. Gods love is truly great. I can not thank Him enough for sending His son. It would seem to me that you have taken His Grace for your own. Texas, I have read many post by you and I feel sure you have. Emerald and Dianet, I have not read as many of your post, but still feel your love for your God.

Let me say I too love God though some would suggest other wise. Those that believe God is in full control are often said to be cold, programed, or other things much worse than these. Its much like when you tell others that you can not loss your salvation and they claim...well that means you feel like you can sin when you want. This is not why I believe in once saved, always saved. I believe it because that is what the Bible teaches. and..No...this teaching keeps me from sinning. This debate of the free will always ends in the path it is now on. So I see no need to go down that path. I do not leave mad. I just see no need to go on.

You do not need me or anyone else trying to beat you over the head with the Bible saying..”NO NO NO...you must believe as I”. The Bible stands on it’s on. Whatever you do, do not follow MY words nor any other man. You need to be sure of your faith and that can only come from Gods Word.

Let me leave this debate with a challenge if i may. If not..stop reading now. hehe

Many Years ago right after the reformation started because of new found freedom from the Church there arose some teachings that went against what believers held as a whole. French Theologian John Calvin rose to write “Institutes of the Christian Religion”. These writings became the leading shaper of the reformation. It became a creed in a way. They were placed in a short outline with 5 points of which those that believed said the church should follow. Those 5 points are..

1) Total depravity (Original Sin)
2) Unconditional election (God's Election)
3) Limited atonement (Particular Redemption)
4) Irresistible grace (Effectual Calling)
5) Perseverance of the Saints


Dutch theologian Jacobus Arminius came along and felt he could not defend these 5 points. He changed his mind when he was teaching what Calvin had taught years before and found no way he could defend the 5 points. He then made his own writings and fromed his own creed if you will. These 5 points of Arminius follows:

1) Free Will with Partial Depravity
2) Resistible Grace
3) Fall from Grace
4) Conditional Election
5) Universal Atonement

From that day on the church has taken sides on who is right in his teachings. what we have addressed in this forum is one of these points..mans will. Is it free..or is it not?

Calvin says that man fall all the way from grace..and is hopeless...or Total depravity....Dead. Arminius said man fell only part way from grace.....he still has his will...and he can choose God when he is ready.....or partial depravity....or not dead but sick.

It is with these 2 statements that the others hang. Arminius says.. Man has a freewill....and man can come and go as he pleases. If you wishes to be saved...God will let him. If on the other hand man wishes to leave God...Man can turn in his salvation for Sin....and there by be lost again. Calvin said ...God saves. God keeps. We were choosen by God...and God will never let us go.

Arminius says God saved us..because of something He seen in us. He called this Conditional Election. It was under some condition that God loved us. Calvin said Grace from God has nothing to do with us...or unconditional love.

Arminius said Man can turn down Gods love....or resistible grace. Calvin says...to whom God calls they will come to Him....or Gods love is...Irresistible.

Let me say now, I do not follow calvin or arminius. I find it very hard to defend calvin in “Limited atonement”...and i do not. I only take what is good and leave the bad. Yet calvin was a very good writer and was used by God. You can see where Arminius looked at man, and showed what man needed to do. Calvin looked at God and says what God did for us. Who is right?

Both men used the Bible to back up these statements. So i say to you know...what does the Bible say? Forget what I have said or any other from this forum..forget calvin...forget arminius...or any other writer. Get into the Word...study...pray..and ask the Holy God to lead you. I have not placed verses in this post for one reason. Many verses have been posted already and no reply was given. Look at the whole Bible. Study the word...the whole word. Ask...how far did man fall?...as a starter...and work though the Bible. Find out what the Bible says...and believe the Bible. At some point you may not want to believe the Bible because it may not seem fair. Non the less...go with Gods word even if you do not understand it. You may not come to the same conclusion as I. I will still think of you as a believer. What matters more is that Gods name be lifted up.

In Christ...James

 

Arthur,

I don't believe man can "come and go". I believe that once a person comes to Christ, they are His and nothing, not even them, can snatch that person from God's hand.

I just believe that the initial choice to follow the will of God is man's.

I also believe that even Christians are allowed to choose between sin and obedience. A Christian who sins, is corrected by the Holy Spirit, and ceases. As Paul says, you can't continually sin when Christ is in you. A non-Christian is lost forever to the sin.

I don't think that you are any less Christian than I am. I just think that we disagree over this particular issue.

I believe that in the end, we have some responsibility in all of this. God is merciful, and forgives us, when we misuse that responsibility, unless - we reject Christ. That one, He does not forgive. Which, even from a human perspective is totally logical to me. If God is holy, if God is love, if God is all - and we reject Him - what else is there?

 

Just make sure of what you believe...and study all of Gods Word...not just of His love.

BTY..i believe what you said above...we do make a choice. I just go beyond...and think man can not choose until God shares His love with him. How could you pick God before you know of God? You can't How did you hear of God? Who 1st reached out to you? Let me clip somethings from your post..

“God undid the damage those Christians did by sending Dr. Prince”
“God sent parents, grandparents, Aunts, neighbors”

This is what i’m talking about. God always reaches out to us 1st. Is that not GREAT??? I mean...whooooa ..praise God. that is in no way cold...or programmed. IT'S REAL..and full of Gods love. I mean that gives me chill bimps and I do not even know you. But I know your GOD.

In Christ....James

Study that you may know.....

 

Jarthur,

I do study all of the word. From Genesis to Revelation. Shoot, I even like to get into the geneology parts and study them.

I've studied it in Hebrew and in Greek. I've been taught by Christians with doctorates of Theology and by secular men who call their classes "religion" and even by a Rabbi once. (A secular course again).

The one thing that ties it all together is love.

That's in the bible too. "All the law hangs on love."

Yes, God is a just God.
Yes, God demands obedience.

I don't deny that for a minute.

However, robotic behavior manipulated by God is not obedience.

The God that hyper-calvanists present is cruel and hateful. There is no other way to describe what they describe. They describe a creator who intentionally, knowing created beings that would never live up to his demands, who he manipulates into violating his commands, and who he randomly destroys or saves, just on a whim, based on the actions He forced them into. In fact, they describe a God who didn't just create high standards they couldn't achieve, they describe a God that FORCES them to sin. That isn't even logical. If sin is disobedience to God, why do you think God would force you to sin?

The God I love is a loving creator who told, us, clearly, what the rules were. Who guides us, daily, to following those rules, who loved us so much He gave his only son, a part of Himself, to live among us, and to die for us. A God who says, "Here is the path to forgiveness and mercy," which path will you take. He is not a God that forces me into disobedience and punishes me for it.

He is a God that begs me to obey and forgives me for not obeying.

The God that would deliberately cause man to sin, and then condemn man for sinning, without hope of salavation, without even OFFERING it to man - is unholy.

God is holy.

Like Diane has already pointed out - To say there is absolutely no free will is to accuse God or orchestrating every murder, every theft, every adulterous affair, every homosexual act, every child rape, every bombing that happens in Palestine or Israel today, every beating, every abuse, every abortion.

Take out whay you want to believe, and what I want to believe, and do as you told me to do, read the WHOLE bible. What this describes is TOTALLY against what the bible showed us in the book of Job.

God did not take away Job's family, health and wealth. God removed His protection and ~allowed~ Satan to act against Job.

Look at Eden.
God did not force Eve to sin.

God told Adam and Eve, "don't eat of this tree," and He left them. They ~chose~ to follow Satan.
God punished them for choosing Satan over God.
God punished them for disobeying God.

But - don't blame God for their sin.

PLEASE stop blaming God for our sins.
God is Holy. God is sinless.
God doesn't MAKE us sin.

 

Regarding this statement:

I just believe that the initial choice to follow the will of God is man's.


God knows His sheep. He knows who will answer His voice. But there is a difference in knowing and in making.

You said, "read it all."

Well, the bible says God desires that no one perish.

The bible says, "I stand at the door and knock, if any man hear my voice, and open the door, ....."

We have to open the door.

 

However, robotic behavior manipulated by God is not obedience.

The God that hyper-calvanists present is cruel and hateful.
**************
I have no idea who you are calling robotic. I do not feel i am robotic. I believe as you stated. You said ...God sent...God sent....God sent and then I was saved. That is what I believe.
**********

There is no other way to describe what they describe. They describe a creator who intentionally, knowing created beings that would never live up to his demands, who he manipulates into violating his commands, and who he randomly destroys or saves, just on a whim, based on the actions He forced them into. In fact, they describe a God who didn't just create high standards they couldn't achieve, they describe a God that FORCES them to sin.
************

I have never heard of this one from even a hyper-calvanists. I have never heard of this from someone that believes God is in full control. From those that do not take this postion...yes i have heard it. I have heard many lies. is it ture? I have no idea if anyone believes this or not. I know this..it is wrong to think it. It's also wrong to make up lies.
**************

That isn't even logical. If sin is disobedience to God, why do you think God would force you to sin?
********************
God NEVER causes us to sin. I never have said that.
**********
He is not a God that forces me into disobedience and punishes me for it.


You must have been mislead at somepoint. I have never claimed this. I have never read this in a calvanists book. I'm not saying it's not in one...i just have never read it. If it is in one...this guy is off his rocker. who said this? whoever it is...it is wrong. My guess is it is someone that hates calvanists and willing to say anything...even lies to put them down.
***************************

He is a God that begs me to obey and forgives me for not obeying.
****************

My God does the same. Once saved we choose every day. We can go Gods way...or mans way. For us it is a real choice. 2 years later we may look back and see God leading us. Maybe you do not see this. I have many times seen Gods Hand in my life. I know of one time you saw Gods hand in your life. You wrote about it before. Now you want to forget...God sent.
*****************

The God that would deliberately cause man to sin, and then condemn man for sinning, without hope of salavation, without even OFFERING it to man - is unholy.
***********************
God never has deliberately cause man to sin that I know of.
******************


Like Diane has already pointed out - To say there is absolutely no free will is to accuse God or orchestrating every murder, every theft, every adulterous affair, every homosexual act, every child rape, every bombing that happens in Palestine or Israel today, every beating, every abuse, every abortion.
**************

I accuse God of NONE of this. You can not say I have. Just because you do not want to talk about verses that tell of Gods choosing does not mean they are not in the Bible nor does not give you the right to tell me what i accuse God of. You need to study ..and stop blaming people who do not agree with you about things you have not a clue. Your logic is baseless.
**************

Take out whay you want to believe, and what I want to believe, and do as you told me to do, read the WHOLE bible.
**************

OK...lets go with that thought. I believe in Gods Love. I believe Man can choose God. I also believe in Gods Election. Do you? Election is in the Bible. Do you believe the whole Bible?

I have posted verses..as well as others along this line..yet to this day...and even in this note...no word on God choosing you. I posted your own words back to you..showing God reached out to you before you knew of Him....yet no comment. That is not the whole Bible my friend. But...i'll ask again. after your own statement...did God reach out to you 1st?
**************

What this describes is TOTALLY against what the bible showed us in the book of Job.

God did not take away Job's family, health and wealth. God removed His protection and ~allowed~ Satan to act against Job.
**************

God was in full control....
**************
Look at Eden.
God did not force Eve to sin.
**************

You mean Eden, before the fall? no...God did not force eve to sin. God forces NNE to sin. I have NEVER said. Again...lies
**************

God told Adam and Eve, "don't eat of this tree," and He left them. They ~chose~ to follow Satan.
**************

yes..before man fell...he had one thing to choose. Serve God....or not.
**************

God punished them for choosing Satan over God.
God punished them for disobeying God.
**************

Yes..i agree
**************
But - don't blame God for their sin.
**************

I don't...I never have.
**************
PLEASE stop blaming God for our sins.
God is Holy. God is sinless.
God doesn't MAKE us sin.
**************

Tex...you seem to think i think God makes us sin. If I have said that..please show me. If I said it..i was wrong. I'm sorry to mislead. This is not the God of the Bible.

I was wrong in saying you did not read the Bible. You said you do. Please forgive. Just one time..i would lick to hear your thoughts on Election. No matter what you say...i will not jump your case. OK..one more thing...I lied...i did not quit the debate. But this note i saw coming.

 

JArthur,

Let me answer you, by asking you to answer some questions. (Don't be insulted by the first two questions. I already know your answers to the first two).

1) Is God a liar?

2) Is the bible God's word?

3) What does God want?

1 Timothy 2:3-4 "This is good, and pleases God our savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of truth."

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."


So the answer to 3 is God wants all men to be saved, He wants all men to repent, He doesn't want anyone to perish.


4) Does predestination - in the sense that God divided all of mankind into "can be saved," "can't be saved," camps comply with how the word of God describes God?


The dictonary defintion of the word favortism is:

fa·vor·it·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fvr--tzm, fvr-)n.
1) A display of partiality toward a favored person or group.
2) The state of being held in special favor.


A predestination theology that teaches "all men who are saved for selected to be saved before time began, and all men who are damned before the dawn of time," is a theology of favortism by God.

That contradicts the bible which states God does not show favortism.

Acts 10:34
"Then Peter began to speak, "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favortism, but accepts men from every nation who fear Him and do what is right."

Romans 2:11-12: "For God does not show favortism. All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law."

1 Peter 1:17 "Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially live your lves here in reverant fear."

James 2:9 Even calls favoritism a sin. It is speaking to man, but then so are the other commandments.

Predestination as many think of it IS favortism.
Favortism displeases God.
God's word says God does not show favortism.


5) Who does God offer salvation to?

Titus 2:11 "For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men."

(By the way, this is also your answer to Romans 3:11 - Men don't seek God, God seeks men, ALL men.)

So, per God's word: God is impartial, He does not show favortism, He accepts everyone who fears and obeys Him, and He offers the grace that brings salvation to all men.


6) Does that mean everyone, irregardless of what they do or say or believe is saved?

I think we all know that is a resounding "No."


7) What is the difference between the saved and the unsaved?

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Luke 7:50 - And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.


This is an interesting, often skipped over verse:

Luke 8:12 - Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Acts 2:21 - And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 2:47 - Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Acts 16:31 - And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.


Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Gods word teaches that the difference in the saved and unsaved is who calls on God and who rejects God.

So - what DOES Ephesians mean?

7) Who was Paul talking to when He wrote the letter?

Ephesian Christians. Men and women who had accepted the grace of God, and called on the name of Christ.

8) What was Ephesians about?
That belivers are joint heirs with Christ.

The predestination is about the rewards of those who have followed Christ, not about how to achieve those rewards.

4 According as he hath chosen us in him

Not, chosen to make us in him, but chosen those of us who are in him.

See the difference?

that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Before the dawn of time, God decided Christians should be holy, and blameless.

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

God predestinted that Christians will become Children of God. Not, which of us will become Christian, but that Christians will be Children of God.

See the difference?

Let me see if I can illustrate it in secular terms.

"I make an announcement on public radio. "I have a surprise for everyone who shows up at the County Court House at 5:00."
I have pre-determined that whoever is at the courthouse at 5:00 is going to get $1,000.00, and a trip to Europe.
John, Jane, Susan, Terry, Wyatt, Elizabeth and Don all hear the announcement.
John, Susan and Elizabeth don't arrive by 5:00.
Jane, Terry, Wyatt and Don do.

I have predetermined the condition of the rewards. So, Jane, Terry, Wyatt and Don are rewarded. They were part of the group that fit the predestination terms.
John, Susan and Elizabeth are part of the group that did not fit the predestination terms.

I "elected" the group that was there by 5:00, but I didn't "pick" who would be there at 5:00.

I probably knew who would. I know that certain people are very punctual, and I know that John isn't, and Susan hates the courthouse, and Elizabeth is skeptical. So I didn't expect them to show up, but I gave them the chance.

God predestined that those who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and call upon His name will be saved.

God offered the message of saving grace to everyone.

Some listened, obeyed and received their inheritance.
Some never listened, chose hell.

But they chose hell against the will of God, and against the desire of God, per the bible.

 

Texassky, excellent post!

 

WOW....now thats what I'm talking about.

That looks like one of my post...(LONG).

Before i reply...i didn't see where you said that most of what you posted before was not true. If a "sorry I lied" was in there...i missed it. I just do not want others thinking I had said any of that made-up stuff. I would still like to know where you got that junk. Was that just made up?...or do people really believe that God makes you sin?

at any rate...

Thanks...and I'll be back later.

 

Jarthur,

You said there is no free will. (If you didn't say that, then I have you very confused with some other poster, and I apologize to you.)

If you did say, "there is no free will," well, then you did say all of those other things. You may not have meant them though. You see, you have to follow the logic out to the end.

No free will - followed to its full conclusion - logically - means all of those other things that Diane and I brought up.

You have to look at the entire picture of what you are communicating.

If you really don't mean all those other things - then somewhere "will" has to come into it.

Whether it is God's or man's or someone else's.

You said you don't feel robotic.
That's because you aren't. No Christian is.

However - the only way to totally remove free will is to create a robot. You can't have it both ways. Either you are not a little robot taking orders or you have some freedom of will.
Even a slave has some free will. They may be punished for exercising it, just was we may be punished by God, but they have it.

Without the concept of man having the ability to disobey God, there is no other logical conclusion than to blame every evil action of man ON God.

You can't have it both ways. You can't have "no free will," and "this is man's fault," or "this is Satan's fault."

Either man has a choice, and at times uses that choice to disobey's God. Or God is the root of all evil.

The fact that man disobeys is obvious.
The fact that there is evil is obvious.

Do you understand?

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God? Why? If we have no free will, if everything that happens if the total will of God - why does sin happen?

 

I nearly fully agree with you on your statement of predestination. I’m not saying yours is wrong. I would just add this. The Jews were the elect of God. and they thought others that came to God, were unable to come to God unless they were a Jew 1st. Because of this some Jews that had become saved said you must keep the law..or without keeping the law..you could never fully please God. This is where paul says..as you have stated...

romans 8..
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the first-born among many brethren. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called; and those whom he called he also justified; and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Paul was showing that..as you put it...God predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. could I add...God said he would finish the Job..and will?

there were a few other things i would have said diffrent...but no big deal. The other verses once again speak of His Great Love. You must think i do not agree with you on His love..for you post a lot of verses in this area. Let me say again..I do know of His love. I thank Him for His love.

I have posted few verses for many reasons. Christ when He spoke to the world, often spoke indirect. I feel like He did this so that they would find the truth on their own. I have started doing this myself and found it very rewarding toward others as they come back and say...you know what...there is more to it then you told me about...and then go on to share what they found on their on. I mean...with the Holy Spirit.

The other reason is that I really do not call myself a calvinist. What?? that is right. If you only knew. anyway...i still must make a stand for what is right. I feel the Bible is very clear on this bondage of the will and no matter what man has as reasons for not holding to it...i will as long as it’s in the Bible.

Now let me share a few verses with you.

opps..before i go on...thanks for your reply.

ok i said i will not jump your case...and I will not. Lets look at the Bible.

romans 9 11-20
though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, she was told, "The elder will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, a man, to answer back to God?

let me throw at you the same rhetorically question you asked of me ...i’m not trying to be smart..this is the only way i know to do this.

do you believe the bible?
yes..i’m sure you do.

Paul shows God does not use His sovereignty arbitrary power as you and others state He would do if man had no freewill, but rather in MERCY he chooses.

you also said..to believe this would mean man has no responsibility. But Paul covers that too..”Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?”

I’ll not preach to you all night..you can read and understand...just look at what is says.
before someone reading this thinks God is unfair..i give you this verse

romans 11
O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! 34 "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?"

part of this is from Isaac..
this is an rhetorically question also.....who can know the mind of God?
the statement of truth..no one knows His mind

There are many verse like this that shows God In full control...mixed with Mans need to choose God. I’ll not cover Mans need...you have done a great job on this.

Now as to ..non posse non peccare

Man can not choose until God reaches out to him. Why? I feel that is because man is Dead in his sins. I once again point your own salvation story. I like to start with this for salvation is a relationship with God. You know better then any other man what happen to you.

Can the Bible back up what you said happen to you? I think it can.

1st..man is dead.
Our Lord spoke the religious leaders and asked this rhetorically question himself.

43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word.

He was not say that were physically deaf, but rather spiritually dead. They could not understand what he was saying.

next look at john 14:16

And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you for ever, 17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

The lost can not receive the Holy Spirit at his will. The holy spirit is given. The unsaved does not know Him.

next...back to romans 8: 7-8

For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

The mind of those in the flesh..this is talking of the unsaved..you can read the rest of the passage and see this....the mind is hostile and CANNOT follow him.


next 1 cor. 2:14

14 The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

The lost can not understand.
also look at romans 3 on this

ok..we have just seen that the lost hear the word..receive the holy spirit..submit to gods law...understand biblical teaching...or cease from sinning. Man is Dead in the things of God

My guess is that you do not disagree so far.

Pelagius and others had concern as you have...Can a person be responsible if he or she is not free? Does it mean that a person is a robot or as i was blamed..programmed by God..if he is denied free will?
but you have stated as many before you..”the Bible says that anyone that will come to Christ will be saved. and again...

jesus said..if we come to him..he will in no wise cast out.

this is ture..as are all the other verses you posted. but that is not the point.
certainly any one that wills...the big "will" word....anyone that will...may come.

but who will come? NNE will come...unless God reaches out and shows His Love 1st

let me say it is wrong for someone to use the verse...”no one comes to me unless the father who sent me draws him” and say that man has NO will at all. Man does have a will and we have gone over this before so i’ll drop it.

My back is hurting...i need a break. I’ll be back later

part 2 coming later..

In Christ...james

and bty...i asked about election..not predestination. there is a diffrence..but i’m sure you know this.

ok..i just say your last post. I do not have time to read it. I type slow. be back later

[ June 28, 2005, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: Jarthur001 ]

 

please do one thing for me....don't talk down to me. I'm not super sharp.....but i understand and and can follow you. If i do not..i'll ask you to explain. I'm sure you do not mean it this way....but that is how it comes across

Thanks...James