Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just a choice between Good and evil?

James,

Wasn't my intent for "Do you understand," to come across as talking down to you. Was meant as exactly what it was, a question asking if I had communicated it in a way that made sense to you.

As to love, your position on love didn't enter my mind, though I do believe you were the one who took a snip at me with some comment along the lines of "read the whole bible, not just the passages on love."

 

The answer to my opinions about election are in the post I wrote.

 

Sky, Diane

I am going to try to state your position back to you. Will you please tell me if I am correct?

God has given mankind free-will, because God wants us to choose Him of our own free-will. If God intervines, then we would be nothing more than robots.

Have I understood you correctly?

 

James,

You have posted, "Quoted by Texas Sky," and followed it by things that I never said.

I assume they are your words.

Please correct that.
I don't want people confusing your views with mine.

You seem to make a distinction between "man's will" and "free will" that I do not understand.

God offering grace to all, is not God forcing grace.

Man, being able to choose between God and sin, is free will.

I can see that you think there is some difference, some fine hair splitting, but I just don't see it.

Free is free.
Choice is choice.

 

Free means free from outside influence. Do you believe our sin nature influences our ability to choose God?

 

JD,

Regarding, have you stated my position correctly - not quite.

Free will doesn't mean "no influence."

We are "influenced" by people every day of our lives. Every day of our lives our free will lets us determine how we will deal with that influence, whether we "give into it," or "reject it."

The Holy Spirit "influences" the choice, but you make the choice in the end with your own free will.

The evidence of this is in the scriptures which state that grace is offered to all men, and that God desires all men be saved, and none perish, combined with the fact that some DO perish.

In Eden, God spoke and said, "This is my will," and Adam and Eve used free will to disobey.

Today, the Holy Spirit speaks and says, "This is God's will," and we use free will to obey or to disobey.

In regards to influence. The Holy Spirit speaks to all of us. The message of Christ is offered to all men. We have friends, relatives, ministers, neighbors sharing the message of Christ with us. This is the influence, the planning of God.

But in the end, it is our choice, and again, our free will.

If it is not - why do we, as Christians, teach "personal committment" and "personal acceptance," of Christ?

 

Sorry about the other post..i do not no how to fix it. I tried to edit it, but it said to much time has pasted.maybe a admin can fix it.

I’m busy today. Maybe i'll have time to finish what I started on the bondage of the will later today, but this is all i can do at this point

I just wanted to say something about your post above. If you were to read on the history of this debate you would find that to hold to the bondage of the will is not saying man has no will at all. This has been posted by me and at least 2 others many times.

Read Augustine, Thomas aquinas, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Matthew Henry, Brown, Jonathen Edwards, J.I. Packer, R. C. Sproul, Charles Spurgeon and anyone else that has wrote on the subject and you will find them saying Bondage of the will means Man is not free to come and go as he wishes unto God. But all of these men say man does have a will....it is just that he WILL not chose God....He can’t choose God.

I’ll explain this more when I get to the nature of man. This is part of the fall of man but different then mans will.

This is a truth that baptist have held to for years. I must say..in the last 20 years this is slipping away. Many more think they believe in the Freewill of man..but when you talk to them...they really do not.

on the other hand..read what jacobus arminus said. Freewell to him means man can be saved when he wants...and then he can change his mind..and not be saved. Man is in control in his veiw...with no limits to his will. This makes man a God. This is what arminus meant when he came up with the phase..”FREE WILL”. Look at the methodist church and you will see this in action. John wesley said he believed in mans freewell....meaning..man can be saved at anytime...and later not be saved. This is based on what man wills, wants, or does. Again you can see this type of salvation places Man in control. this is what you see in that methodist church.

It is not me that is splitting hairs. I did not come up with the words to use in the debate. I read the writers..i understand what they said...and i agree with some...and chuck the rest....but i use the words in the meaning the writers used them.

those that do not understand the writers make judgments based on the words used in the debate and the way THEY understand the words....not how the phase was used by the writer. Most that preach “freewill”...do not understand that phase in its full meaning. What they really believe..is man has a will...but can not choose God. This my friend is bondage of the will.

You said early...”did you know that predestination is, originally, a Catholic teaching” and you were not sure of predestination.

it was at this point that i spoke directly to you and not the forum. that was the..wooooo bro statement. Later you went on to post a great note on predestination. At some point you changed. I do not care why..i’m glad you did change to now believe in predestination. But at 1st you seemed to feel as if predestination and the elect were one and the same word. many do this very thing. This will lead to twisted views such as...God Pushing some into Hell. While the words are linked you must see then in the right light. Your post showed you do understand predestination.

Later we will look at the elect.

In Christ...James

 

I disagree with this statement:
"Free means free from outside influence"

So does the dictionary:

"Not imprisoned or enslaved; being at liberty.
Not controlled by obligation or the will of another: felt free to go."


You are influenced by things every day of your life. You are free to follow those influences or not.

Freewill: freewill

adj : done of your own accord;


will: The mental faculty by which one deliberately chooses or decides upon a course of action: championed freedom of will against a doctrine of predetermination.
The act of exercising the will.

Freewill has nothing to do with "influence".

 

TexasSky

You said, 'I disagree with this statement:
"Free means free from outside influence"

So does the dictionary:

"Not imprisoned or enslaved; being at liberty.
Not controlled by obligation or the will of another: felt free to go."'

Jesus said in John 8:34+, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin (v.36)If therefore the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed."

So you see that both I and the dictionary agree with Jesus. An unsaved person is enslaved to sin. They have no "free-will". They are not "free" to choose God.

Notice that Jesus the Son "shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." Freedom from sin, and thus salvation, and the ability to choose God comes from the Son as a gift.

I also find it interesting that those He was speaking to refused to believe that they were slaves to anything.

 

I do not know if this was in a reply to my post. But if it was, in my post i said nothing about influence. You had disagreed with jd over the use of this word. I have no comment on it for i can see he was setting the stage for something much bigger. we shall see

my post was in reply to you saying you did not understand why i was splitting hairs over freewell...and manswill.

maybe you understand now.

 

oops..never mind. he posted before i could

 

JD and JArthur,

Do you really believe that God, in His infinite wisdom, said, "I want JD in heaven, so Holy Spirit, go to JD and prepare his heart for Christ, but I do NOT want his neighbor, Phil, in heaven, so harden his heart?"

If you do believe that - explain why the bible says that God sends the message of Grace to everyone and that God does not desire that any perish.

If you do not believe that - explain what you mean.

Because right now, it sounds to me like you are saying, "You were saved or condemned to hell before you were ever born, so this stuff about accepting Christ is a bunch of nonsense and a lie."

And that just isn't what my bible teaches me.

 

TexasSky. Greetings. Lets see if I can put in my two cents... then I'll go... as I don't do these debates much.
1 Tim.2:4. who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
The all is the same word used for "all sorts of" in 1 Tim. 6:10. For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.
In 2 Peter 3:9. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
The *you* are the elect or chosen... see 1 Peter 1:1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen... and also 2 Peter 1: 1. Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:...
Christians or the elect or chosen.
If He chose people before the foundation of the world... and He did, Ephesians 1:4. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love
5. He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,
He is not willing that any whom He chose will perish. He will be patient untill the last of His saints are born and hear the Word of truth... and respond... then He will return.
By the way...... He does not force us to respond... He gives us the ability... He gives us a new nature to be able to respond. Its like someone being caught in a raging river.... sin... and God sends His Holy Spirit to rescue us from that raging river... we do not fight it.
Grace and Peace

 

TexasSky

I am trying to address your statements concrerning "freewill". Could you please respond to what Jesus said in John 8;

"He who commits sin is a slave to sin...if the Son sets you free, you are free indeed."

According to the definition you read to me out of the dictionary, this demonstrates the unsaved do not have "free-will". If someone is a slave, they do the will of their master, not their own will. Jesus is saying that sin is the master of the one who sins. There is no "freewill" to choose God at that point.

 

JD,

I don't agree with your interpretation of the verse at all. Forgiveness of sin, mercy and grace, are the gifts of God. The choice is to accept the gift or reject it.


Go back a few verses in that same text.

23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


"IF" - - - - "Then"

If you don't believe, you'll die in sin.

If/then; implies a choice.

Were there no choice, it would be a simple case of, "since you don't believe," not "if you don't." IF = opportunity to change.

 

Reformed;

I am not sure what your point is regarding the Timothy verses. "All" in "all men" is translated as "each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone."

It is the same word used in the verse you cited, however, that verse qualifies it with "sorts of", making it a categorical distinction.

I'm aware of the fact that Calivinists like to say, "Well, all, doesn't mean "all" it means "all this group," but I find their arguments for that to be weak. They point of verses like "All of Judea," and go, "impossible, must be most of." My reaction is "nothing is impossible with God." So unless God qualifies it Himself in the holy word with, "sorts of," I'm going to assume "all" means "all."

In 2 Peter 3:9, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. If you are saying that Paul's words regarding "patience so none shall perish" is reserved only for those Paul is addressing at that moment, are you, by context of that statement, suggesting Christians can lose their salvation?

By the way. "You" is Humas, and it is the same "you" we have in English. If and when people state it is referring only to the elect, they are basing that on context. It doesn't actually translate as, "the elect".

As to Ephesians.

I have to ask you. Why the double standard in regards to scriptural interpretations?

Why do you assume that he is speaking of "everyone in the universe" in Ephesians, but "only speaking to the elect" in Peter?

In fact, it seems almost the opposite.

"God is long patient with you, for he desires that everyone come to redemtion that none should perish." The words used for "everyone" and "none" are all words which, in Greek, mean, "everyone," and "no one." Again, the Calvinist like to say, "Well, yeah, but it can't really mean that, because over here he said that, and he couldn't really have meant "everyone." "He couldn't have really meant," is a lazy argument.

But, why do you say, "He means the elect," there, and yet, take Ephesians to NOT mean the elect?

I interpret Ephesians as basically saying, "God preordained that this group of people, those who follow Christ, will be redeemed."

You interpret it, if I understand you, to mean, "These people I played favorites with."

Which puts us back to the fact that God said He doesn't play favorites.

 

Gotta hand it to you TS.

Keepin up the fight. I'm simply exhausted with it. I stick to a question here and there now but that's about it.

 

TexasSky

You are simply missing the point of what Jesus was saying. How can you misunderstand? "He who commits a sin is a slave to sin..if the Son sets you free, you are free indeed." This goes directly to your emphasis on free will, and the definition you quoted me from the dictionary. What's to interpret? The words are plain and simple, unless they go against a preconceived understanding.

Romans 9: God says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy. I will have compassion on whom I have compassion. I will harden whom I harden. So, it is not up to the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy."

That sounds like God is specifically saying it is not up to man. That sounds like God is using His freewill to choose whom He wants to have mercy and compassion on, and whom He wants to harden. I suppose you disagree the "interpretation" of those plain words as well.

God does "play favorites". He "played favorites" when He chose Abram. Abram was nothing special. But God chose him and made him a great nation. Why? Because it was part of His plan for His saints. He "played favorites" with the nation of Israel. He gave them the Law, and His presence was uniquely with them of all the nations of the earth. Why? Because it was part of His plan for His saints.

Jesus "played favorites with His disciples, He taught them privately what He wouldn't teach the crowds. Why? It was part of His plan for His saints.

He "plays favorites" with those He loves (He disciplines), He "plays favorites with those He has chosen (He calls by name, which means He has already decided who are His sheep, and calls them by the Spirit, He transforms them into a new being, He gives them life) He plays favorites to those He has saved(He gives them His Spirit, He keeps them until His return), He "plays favorites" with His church, (He died for the church and we are the bride of Christ).

God does not have to live up to your sense of right and wrong. He has a plan that He has put into place before the foundation of the world. He has left nothing to "chance". He has chosen those He wants to show mercy to, and He will not lose any. The entire purpose of all existence is for those that He has chosen to glorify His name and enjoy Him forever.

You make it sound like I'm bragging because God chose me to be among His saints. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am humbled to the dust that God had mercy on me. The more I learn, the more I realize I had nothing to do with my salvation, it was all the work of God. That makes me cry out, "Abba, Father". That makes me marvel at His great love, and wisdom, and power, and righteousness.

That is God showing His great love and compassion. Not sitting helplessly in heaven, hoping someone makes the right decision, but sitting on His hands so no one can accuse Him of interfering with someones "free-will". I thank God He didn't wait for me to decide to accept Him, because I would still be lost!