Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just a choice between Good and evil?

Hi class. welcome to hamartiology 101..please be seated

ok..that was a joke why is no one laughing????

Tex,

you said you did not understand the bondage of the will vs. freewill. I tried to explain yet i have not heard if you now understand. I’m not asking if you agree with my side of the debate..but do you see that the debate has always centered on these 2 sides...something you thought i was splitting hairs over?

i am about to start typing on mans sin nature as i said i would. this is a bit beyond the area of this forum that dills with mans will. But please allow me one post to cover this for it goes with mans will.

I wanted to throw this post out before i got started typing so that you.... tex ...can tell me or others if you need more information in understanding what the phases mean and for that matter, what the phases are. Please do not take this the wrong way...you said you did not understand..i just want to know if i need to cove the phase of “freewill...and bondage of the will” any more....or can we go on. and we need to make sure we are on the same page when we talk. If i talk of a automobile and mean a SUV and you hear automobile but think Acura RL then we are not thinking of the same auto. Lets just make sure we are.

ok..i’ll type my little thing..take your time. I'll be here a while

in Christ..James

 

Jarthur,

And you asked me not to talk down to you.

Trust me, I know what the phrases mean, and I never said I didn't understand "bondage of will" vs 'free will'. I said it is totally illogical and contradicts the very nature of God, and God's word.

Huge difference there.

There is no need to go into "man's sinful nature" either. I'm famliar with that too.

The bottom line in this discussion ALWAYS goes back to the simple facts.

If you believe that man has absolutely no free will, then logic dictates that you are really saying that even accepting Christ as Lord and Savior is unnecessary, and a waste of time because God already settled it before Christ ever came, and that having settled it, you're either saved or doomed, depending on which side of God's lotto you landed on. If you're doomed, based on this theory, then its God fault, and Christ wasted His time on the cross, and all the evangalists in the world are wasting their time trying to carry out the great commission, and God is unjust.

If you believe that God offers grace to all, and that He allows you to choose His grace or to reject His grace, then logic matches what the entire overall message of the bible teaches, - that salvation comes down to accepting the gift of grace offered to you, and God is a just God that, having condemned all men based on their sinful nature, also offered His grace to any who would accept it, via believe in His son who was sacrifice for all men.

Either God obligates us to hell, or God offers us grace and mercy.

You really can't have it both ways.

 

JArthur,

You are contradicting the bible when you say "God does play favorites."

It actually SAYS that God is impartial and that He does not show favoritism. In regards to the times in the bible it may appear otherwise, be careful you don't judge God. His "apparent favortism," always went to those who followd His will.

So you aren't arguing with me. You're arguing with God's holy word.

You are attributing the behaviors of men to God, after God's word says, "This is not God."

As to what is just or unjust - AGAIN, that isn't my call. Its the bible's. God agreed with Abraham that condemning the righteous over the sins of the unrighteous in Sodom and Gommorah would be "unjust" and in order to not be unjust, God agreed to give Abraham a chance to search for righteous men.

 

This didn’t take as long as i thought. I clipped most verses from the net....


This in no way will cover the subject. One can read many that will explain this better then i can understand it. I do not claim to know this fully. But this is how i understand mans sin nature. Please take sometime and read elsewhere on your own.

What most call the “original sin is not when sin was formed. Nor is it really the 1st sin. The 1st sin was when satan choose to lift himself above God. This made sin and also a “sin principle”. The sin principle is set agains God as a system of evil.

The “original sin” as a phase in the doctrine of sin refers to the 1st sin by mankind. This of course is Adam in the garden. What happen when man sinned? Man fall and is dead spiritually. God said, “ this day you will surely die” Adam totally corruped his human nature in his fall. In turn Adams sin caused his children to receive that same spiritually dead nature. Every one sence Adam has received this sin nature.

Gen 8 :21 (evil from his youth)
And when the LORD smelled the pleasing odor, the LORD said in his heart, "I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I ever again destroy every living creature as I have done.

Job 14 : 1-4 (unclean)
"Man that is born of a woman is of few days, and full of trouble. He comes forth like a flower, and withers; he flees like a shadow, and continues not. And dost thou open thy eyes upon such a one and bring him into judgment with thee? Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?

ps 51 : 5 ( iniquity/ sin)
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Eccles 9 :3 (evil)
This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that one fate comes to all; also the hearts of men are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Jer. 17 :9 (corrupt)
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately corrupt; who can understand it?

Romans 1 21-32 (all of this)
for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them.

Romans 3 : 9-18
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all; for I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one." "Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood, in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes

We have showen without debate a stong doctrine based fully on Gods word that mans nature fall into a total sin nature. We call this “total depravity”.

total depravity means that corruption extends to every part of mans..or i mean the unsaved mans nature. From total depravity or ...lets call it total inability we set other doctrines.

Lets look at some more verse to back this statement up.

it affects his thinking................................

gen, 6: 5
The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

romans 8: 5-8
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 cor. 2:14
The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

it affects his emotions and attitudes.......................

John 3 :19-20
And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

John 8 : 44
You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

eph 4 :18
they are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart;


his body.........................

Rom. 8 :10
But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.

I Cor. 15:50
I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.

last...guess what we have..mans will. You have seen many verses posted on this...but let me repost

john 5 :40
yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.

eph 2 :2-3
in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience. Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Ok...why bring this sin nature up in the middle of the freewill debate? At 1st it may look it is to just use mor verses on the same thing. It is true that some verses can be used on many points of the study....but it show more is at work then only mans will. Man can not choose God because he does nt know of God...till God reaches out to him. But more then that...man does not have the natrue to chose God. Its the same reason as why the lion will not eat hay. The it is not in the nature of the lion to eat hay. He could do it...but he does not want to eat it. Man will not choose God...it is not in his nature. Yes..God reaches out to him...God calls all to be saved...but none come to him..till the holy spirit calls them.

Man is dead spiritually as God said he would be for sinning in the garden. Man can not choose God...nor will he choose God...because he does not want to choose God...and he does not know of God. Not till God reaches out to man.

This is not as stong as it could be...for this would take many pages to fully show. I hope you get my point.

In Christ...James

next up....what this all means put together. then the big one...the elect

 

TexasSky

You are contradicting the Bible when you say God doesn't choose, that there is no predestination, that men have it within their own power to choose God.

That is the oldest lie in existence. Look at Adam and Eve. What was the forbidden tree? The tree of the knowledge of good and evil. What does that mean? That if they ate of the tree, they would be able to discern good from evil, and therefore choose the good and spurn the evil, without relying on God to do it.

That was a lie staight out of the mouth of Satan. When they knew good from evil, what happened? They knew they had disobeyed God, that they had sinned, and they tried to run and hide. They didn't want to be near God. They didn't choose God. They didn't want anything to do with God. God had to go and find them, and clothe them. Just like God seeks out those He has chosen, and clothes them with the righteousness of His Son, Jesus.

When scripture speaks of God not showing partiality, it is speaking specifically of how men show partiality. They break down groups into Jew or Gentile, rich or poor, slave or free, male or female. Men make judgments of worth based on the exterior. God's doesn't judge like men judge. You are saved or unsaved, you are one of His children, chosen before the foundation of the world, or you are a vessel of wrath prepared for destruction.

Does that make Jesus dying on the cross of no consequence? Of course not!! The cross demonstrates God's great love for His saints. A love so great that God, Himself, would take on flesh, and pay the penalty for our sins so that the relationship could be restored, that we could glorify Him and enjoy Him forever.

Does that mean we shouldn't witness to people. Of course not!! We have been commanded by our Lord to witness, to spread the gospel to the whole world. The gospel has the duel purpose of calling the saints to Him, and of condemning the world for rejecting the Son. One is a fragrance of life, the other a fragrance of death.

You refer to Sodom. You act like God didn't know how many in Sodom were "righteous". Abraham bargained for 10, but there wasn't 10 were there? There was Lot, his wife (who couldn't obey and had to turn around to watch) and his two daughters (who got Lot drunk and slept with him so they could bear children).

I guess there was only Lot, living a life for God in a wicked city. Do you think Lot wasted his time telling those wicked people about God? Of course not!! It was all part of God's plan, to show us that He is God, that He punishes the wicked, that He is righteous in His judgments.

 

I'm sorry...i thought this was your post. I could have saved alot of time AND typing...if you understand. lol

ok..skip the bondage/freewill phases

 

tex...to be fair you have asked me to get to this point a few times. I have touched on it...but I felt i needed to show other verses 1st...for you reject many theology teachings that lay the ground work. You claim it's not in the Bible...yet verses after verses are posted.

Now it is time to put all this togther....but you need to wait till tomorrow...i'm going to bed.

In Christ...James

 

humm. that was good good insight brother

 

favorites...ok help me with this one. I can't find where i used this word. If you changed the word...just tell me where to look so i can reply.

Thanks.

oh one more on this one

you said..His...his being God favortism went...went i guess was placed on to them that follow Him.

Now do not get mad. But this sounds like good works does matter. Just asking you before i reply

 

Texas,

one more and I'll shut up. I do need to do work.

This is where you loss me on your logic of understanding. I will freely (great pun if i do say so myself) say I do NOT understand that one line above. This sounds like one can have part freewill...or you can have absolute freewill. Maybe you just chose a bad word. Or is this what you really mean? If so...it sounds like what you call part freewill...is what I call bondage of the will. Do I understand you right?

 

Thank you James. BTW, TexasSky was the first to start talking about God not making distinctions between people. I responded by showing where He did. So her comment was probably directed toward me. I am convinced she doesn't read our posts anyway, so I can see where she would be confused.

 

"...and he does not know of God."

This I disagree with. All men have the knowledge of God but suppress it in unrighteousness. If they didn't know "of God" they would not even make up false gods. There would be no reason for any "gods" or "relgions" to exist.

We can debate all day about some things, even the "dead in sin" doctrine but the fact is that all men know "of God".

KJ off his soapbox

 

Jd,

She may not read them. I hope she does.

At times I feel like i’m talking to 2 or more people. sometimes she will say stuff way off base with no truth. Other times the post do make sense, it’s just that I do not believe as she. Still other times she can post a very good statement.


Let me say to you and others I am sorry for the long post i have placed...and all of those verses. Yet i have found no one can understand mans will till they see the sinner as he really is. Getting back to the roots always helps...and never hurts us. reformedbeliever used a very good picture of our state of man in his sin nature, yet pictures as this go unnoticed for many do not see the fullness of what happen in the fall. This picture though good is often not seen as fully as reformedbeliever meant it. Nothing wrong with the post...i liked it.

anyway
I hope to wrap this up on my end today..or tomorrow. This has been good for me to revisit studies that one does not think on everyday. Although you know Gods truth, when I read them again it always strengthens me in my faith. I have felt blessed more than anyone thing doing this debate looking at Gods salvation toward man. All that thrills my soul is Jesus....He is more then LIFE to me....mmm I love my God. No matter how you should side in this debate..I trust all that have read my writings and tex and jds..and many others... will more than anything come closer to God.. We have one Bible..One God. Lift hi His holy name.

In Christ...james

 

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

 

JD,

I am not contradicting the bible.

The bible says, "God so loved the world, that He sent His only begotten son," -

So - the Bible says God loves "the world". The sinful, hateful, world.

But you aren't describing a God that loved us.

You describe a a cruel, manipulator who sat down and randomly said, "Okay - you and you - into hell. You and you - into heaven."

"that whosoever believeth on Him should not perish but have ever lasting life."

The bible says, "Whoever believes," it doesn't say, "whoever I have chosen to give the right to believe."

Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.

What you describe isn't Grace.
And it says "ALL" men.
That's the bible, not Sky.

And you can't explain that away with, "Well, all doesn't really mean," all. The word uses in that verse is the SAME word used for "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

ALL is all, folks. Please stop trying to say it isn't.

Hebrews 5:9 - And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him.

There is that word "All" again, followed by "obey". The "obedience" he required, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ," ......

Not, "Sit around and wait until we tell you if your number came up."

Look at 2 Peter 3 in context:

I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance: 2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: 3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

He is talking about the fact that in that in the past God destroyed the sinful world, but that TODAY God is showing patience with this sinful world because GOD DOESN"T WANT ANYONE TO PERISH, and GOD WANTS ALL MEN TO REPENT - so God is patient. He gives us time. He waits on us. He holds back his hand of judgment to give us time to repent.

This isn't a God that goes, "Forget you, you're going to hell. I decided that 10,000 years ago."

This is a God that stays His hand of vengence to give us time to repent. This is a God that became man to live among us so we would NOT perish. This is a God that suffered horrible pain at the hands of men and who died on a Cross so that we would not perish. How can you accuse Him of being so heartless and cruel that before the dawn of time, before the Cross, He said, "In 2005, these 4 go to hell, and these 4 don't?"

I mean,it makes me ill to think you really think of God that way. It feels like something so blasphemous. It feels like you don't even value the Cross of Christ.

Regarding 2 Timothy 2:10 and Ephesian 2:4,

God is saying, "Those who follow Christ will become the elect. They will become the children of God."

He isn't saying, "I elected these people to be children of God so these people will hear the message of Christ and these won't."

And please, don't take verses like 2 Timothy 3:15 out of context.

In context it reads: 13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

In context, it says, "You know the scripture, the scripture will help you recognize that Christ is Christ."

Now - regarding Romans 9 - Paul is lamenting the loss of salvation of his own people. When he first refers to election in vs 10, he is actually talking about Jewish law folks, and how it related to inheritance and twins, in relationship to how it relates to relationships with God.

The "promise of election" that he is referring to is the promise to the people of Israel that they will be God's chosen people.

Yes, God's mercy is God's mercy.
There is no debate about that.
Yes, God will have mercy on whomever it pleases God to have mercy on.
No debate about that.

God says, Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
And God says He desires that non perish.
And God says, Luke 1:50 - And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

Look at 1 Timothy 1:16 - Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Why do we need a pattern? Why do we need to "believe on Him" if the decision was already made?

Look at James 3:17 - But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.

James 5:11 - Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

"Easy to be intreated," "full of mercy" "without partiality" "Without hypocrisy." "of tender mercy"

Regarding Romans 9 again - Read the rest of the passage where he discusses "hardening of the heart."

Paul points out that God hardened Pharoah's heart. Paul says we are wrong to judge God and call Him evil for doing so, but then He goes on and basically says, "You're looking at it backwards." He says, "What if, instead of God hardening Pharoah's heart and making Pharoah evil, it is really that God showed tremendous patience and mercy to Pharoah so that when the time came, God could use Pharoah for God's glory?"

RSV Puts it this way:

"What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

The bible says He calls everyone

The vessels of His glory are those who are those who answer that call.

25 As indeed he says in Hose'a, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'my beloved.'" 26 "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' they will be called 'sons of the living God.'"

The bible says he sends the message to all, those who respond are His. It does not say, "I only send the message to some." It doesn't say, "I send the message to some, but refuse to let them hear." It says, He wants everyone to repent, but - when some are so evil, so vile, so unrepentant that they will never come to Him seeking mercy - He uses them to glorify Himself.

That is not the same as a heavenly casting of the lots to see who can get a pass into heaven and who can't.


When asked, "What must I do to be saved," God did not say, "Nothing. I've already may my decision."

The bible DOES say

 

JD and Jarthur,

I do indeed read your posts. But thank you both for the personal attacks.

I just think you are taking the bible out of context, lifting scripture out to try to prove something that totally goes against the nature of God, and that contradicts what God says about Himself.

You say you showed where God showed favortism.
I say, the bible itself says, God does not show favortism.

You say you can show examples where He did play favorites. Step back and take a REAL close look at those examples. Everytime He seems to show favortism it is to those who obey Him against those who do not.

Even Paul says that when one twin was lifted up over the other it was so that God's promise could be fulfilled through the son whose heart would be with God.

When Peter talks about who God appears to show favortism to he lists things like Noah was spared, the world was not; Lot was spared, Sodom was not, and then he says:

"9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished: "

 

Now,

I ask you two, since I've obviously taken time to try to answer your posts directly, why do you make false accusations like, "I'm convinced she doesnt' read our posts?"

 

And This statement was made:

Man can not choose until God reaches out to him. Why? I feel that is because man is Dead in his sins.


No argument.

The bible says, God sends the message to ALL men.

You both keep ignoring that, and skipping over that.

 

No - I do not think works saves men. I believe salvation comes through acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, and I believe, as the old hymn says, "He offers pardon and peace to ALL."

I believe you are making it far too complicated, and that you are ignoring a tremendously large number of scriptures to pull a few out of context.

My bible says God loved us enough to become flesh.
My bible says God loved us enough to send his only son to us.
My bible says God loved us enough to die on the cross of calvary, taking our sins upon Himself.
My bible says "whosoever" believes this (and I interpret that as whoever follows Christ) will be saved.
My bible says "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved."
My bible says, God sent the message of grace unto salvation to all men.
My bible says that the one unpardonable sin is to NOT believe on Christ.

Now - YOU say that you never said God causes man to sin, YET, you say God causes man to reject Christ. You contradict yourself for to cause man to reject Christ IS sin.

Yes, the bible talks of "the elect of God." Any man who follows Christ becomes a Child of God. The children of God are the elect of God.

Its simple logic.

However, it is much more than simple logic.

It is asking yourself, "Was God lieing when He said he offers grace unto salvation to all men?"
Was God lieing when He said he disires that no one perish?
Was God lieing when He said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved?"
Was God lieing when He said He loved the world?

If He is not lieing - and He does love us, and He did send Christ to be a living sacrifice for us, and some of us do become Children of God and some don't - is that "God's fault" because He made us commit the sin of rejection of Christ? Or is it OUR fault because, when He offered it to us, WE rejected it?

 

That is the bottom line folks.


Is it God's fault people don't accept the forgivenss and mercy offered to them via Christ?