Is there such a thing as 'free will' or is it just a choice between Good and evil?

I was always told that was the ultimate expression of God's love. That He would send His Son to die for me if I was the only person in the world. And that He would have done it if nobody believed, just to show how much He loved us. Well...that's what I was always taught.

 

Donna,

I understand your logic. If stated as you have, human logic would say God would not do such a thing. If Mans "will" is viewed only with human logic, I would pick freewell for with human logic i want to say i am not that bad. In human logic i want to say i am in control. In human logic i would say I picked God...i picked God all by myself.

Logic that shows mans freewill to chose God at anytime is just that..mans logic. When faced with the Word of God mans logic crashes to the ground. When the verses come out those that hold to mans logic run. Look at how few verses I posted near the beginning. Look how hard it is for some to say that the Bible says man is Dead. If they do not agree they would say so. Yet they know what it says. They can read. Yet they hold to their logic as if it means more to them then the truth.

I do not mean to jump your case nor anyones. Tones can come across in different ways when one reads. I trust you take my word that I say all this in compassion. This was a fair question and i'm sure is asked by many. I would ask you to study to show yourself approved. The truth shall set you free. The truth is not found in mans logic, but rather in Gods Word.

I have tried to remove my input into the debate away from logic and simply show what the Word of God says. I have not always done this, for i too used logic to express my views. The expression set forth as I defended my stand on a God that makes sin, was pure logic. Logic can only hold if you back it with the Word.

However it is fun to play the logic game at times.

Lets throw up out on the board. This is not toward you only, but rather any that wishes to reply.

If freewill is true..when does man 1st have a choice? Is it before he knows of God..or after he knows of God?

this seems easy.....before or after?

******************

anyway lets look at what you asked.
Would God have planned/allowed/sent Jesus to die for our sins knowing no one might choose to be saved?

well..your asking a hypothetical question here based on my answer before it would seem. the short answer is....i have no idea. Who can know the mind of God? I can take a guess based on bible truth...but it is only a guess and not a belief.

KJ said something good about this. God would have died just for you donna. But you did say if no one was saved. My guess is yes. No wait change that.

I have just changed my view.

yes he would have. No question about it!! Gods love is unconditional. no matter who loves Him back, God still loves us. You see how Gods love is much stronger when placed beside mans bondage of his will? You can conclude what this does to the Love of God if one holds to mans freewell on your own.

Many have painted God as a no caring God. I want you to reread the post and see who is saying this. It is not I. This view comes from a lack of understanding who God is..and the true state of man. Bondage of the will shows Gods love more then anything else i know of.

I need to end this..i have a lot of writing ahead of me.

I hope i addressed your question.

In Christ...James

 

Tex,

Really we should not study outside the bible as to truth. This too is meaningless. and a side track ...But to play the game we will look at what was said.

i do have most of the wrtings from the apostolic fathers second edition...translated by lightfoot. Justin martyr is not found there but rather most major works can be found in...
The Writings of Justin Martyr by Broadman & Holman Publishers 1998
Justin Martyr works follow
First Apology
Second Apology
Dialogue with Trypho
Fragments from the Lost Writings of Justin
Hortatory Address to the Greeks
On the Sole Government of God
On the Resurrection
Discourse to the Greeks

oops..no i do not have Methodius either. i’ll need to read up on him.

you will find what was posted in Justin martyr’s apology #1 chapter. What you posted was only part of this chapter. What does the full chapter say? read for yourself. you can make up your own mind.

i just want to add onething before you read. if you find something that dos not jive with the word...why hide it...and claim the other is good? lay it all on the table...and let the reader say if it is of God..or not.


CHAPTER XLIII--RESPONSIBILITY ASSERTED.

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man's actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made.

 

This as other postings is in no way a full study of the subject. Also i would like to point out..in most studies it is best to lay all out on the table. I will not do this tonight. If this were a real class..i would use alot of time sharing points on the freewill side. I do not want to build men. one needs to know all views to make a CHOICE. So.. i do ask you to study this for yourself.

What have we learnt so far? YOU CAN NOT SPELL!!
ok besides that................YOU TYPE TO MUCH!!!

ok...i had to start like that...to get the joke in.

I do not claim to be any ones teacher. I post as you..as God leads.

Mans will.....

when we approach this subject on the basis of biblical teaching, we must speak only of the area of which it concerns. This is about our relationship with God. If we do not do this, we end up talking nonsense.

Over the past few notes i have tried to show from the Bible that the doctrine of total inability of man is shown in many ways from the promise of God in genesis to revelations. Nearly every book in the bible you will kind this doctrine in some form. When Adam sinned, there was generated in them the sin principle....romans 8:2 calls this the law of sin. This principle dominated their posterity throughout their unregenerate life. Oliver B Green was a very good man, yet not what i would call deep in his writings. However, a few of his books were very good in the way he laid out the subject. I do not mean to put Green down. I feel he wrote this way to reach many people. The reason I bring this up is one book i read years ago when teaching on the doctrine of soteriology by green was very strong on this word unregenerate man. I do not know the name of the book nor could i find in my library. I have just moved and have no idea where somethings are. If anyone knows of this book..please post. Anyway..in it... green pounds this phase..."the unregenerate man"...over and over again. It makes a great impact on the subject.

anyway...This force is completely rules the lives of the unsaved man to the extent that all man does is sinful in the eyes of God.
romans 3...10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands, no one seeks for God

One most take note that no one while in this sin nature seeks God. The other side of this would mean ALL are in this fallen state till salvation.

Adams sin made him guilt and subject to divine condemnation
Rom. And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification.
this means God found him guilty of sinning and so punishment was just.
This sin involved adams posterity so guilt was placed on them as well.
rom 5 Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned--

but what does this mean? well...what does it mean to be lost?

I will not do as well as green..but from my own postings and others you will see the Bible tells of this total inablity....or...what it means to be lost.

a lost man is.... not able to understand the gifts of the Spirit of God, is not spiritually discerning, nor can he receive His Spirit of truth, nor can he understand, or bear to hear His Word, nor does he know the Holy spirit, he is hostile to God, and will not submit to God's law, indeed he CANNOT submit to Gods law. He can not please God, nor is spiritually discerning, he is a slave of sin and His imagination in his heart is evil, unclean, conceived in sin.

he is as unclean as a dog, stupid as a sheep, cunning as a fox, cruelty as a bear, subtlety as a serpent, stubborn as a ass

His heart is evil, and madness is in his heart, being deceitful, desperately corrupt, impurity, dishonoring, exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and is dishonorable, committing shameless acts, filled with all manner of wickedness, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, inventors of evil, disobedient, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. because their deeds were evil, father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.darkened in their understanding, dead because of sin, refuse to come to God, Man follows the course of this world, follows the prince of the power of the air, has the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, and is called the children of wrath.


"Their throat is an open grave, they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood, in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes, wickedness of man is great in the earth, every imagination of the thoughts of his heart is only evil continually, men loved darkness rather than light.

From his heart comes evil thought, adulters, fornications, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness his thoughts are vanity, vile, selfish, his mind is carnal and is enity against God, his tongue is unruly and evil and full of poison, His hands works are iniquity, his eyes are blinded, his eyes are deaf. He is poor and needy in his heart and is undone.


He is under the power of sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands, no one seeks for God. All have turned aside, together they have gone wrong; no one does good, not even one."

This is why man is said to be in total inability. This guy is LOST!! is DEAD All of this you will find in the Bible

if this is true and this is fully based on the bible as stated above..so it is true....what am i to make of the fact i can still choose? a person who objects to man having no will based on simple reason that he seems to be able to do as he wills is right in doing so. Actually man can do many things of his will.

Man has a will that lets him choose regarding nonessential things. We can decide where to shop, what car to buy, what to eat, where we go to school. what team to cheer for..(GO WVU)
By contrast there are areas in which we do not have will. Our IQ will only let us go so high on the charts. We can not will to have a IQ of 160 if we only have a IQ of 100. IQ can not be moved sideways. If we have high intelligence in art does not mean we can force our will to a high level in Business.

the same is true in the spiritually things. What did Adam have before the fall? Well he did have freewill. this was lost after the fall.

we may see a picture of this if we imagine adam was on the side of a steep pit. and when God made Adam He said..”Adam, do not jump into the pit. If you jump into the pit...you can not get back out of the pit.” as long as adam stayed on the edge of the pit he had freewill to jump or not to jump. But once he decided to jump, adam had lost his freewill to get back to the edge. He did not loss his full will. He could still jump high....but not high enough to save himself. He could run and jump too. He could cry and blame it on someone else, make a ladder to reach high, no matter what was done adam works fell short.

Adams will was bond so he could not reach God.

This is Adam and all mankind. Lost from ever reaching God on our own. Some are mad in this pit...some are fooled into works, some live a life sinning Most do not even know they are lost. But all are sinners. All are lost All can not reach God on their own. For reasons no one knows...and by grace alone God reached down.

Now this story is about a pit. The story was but a small picture of a much great truth. Mans fall was so great that he lost everything spiritually. remember the post on the 2 paths. Well from this point on man is in that path that leads away...or in contrast to God. The Bible calls it many things. We covered alot of these already. get in the Word and find them. This will richly bless you.

One more night of this and I WILL stop. I want to say something on the elect....and i quit.


let me end by once again saying....do not take my word for this. take no mans word. Study...study...study. Read your Bible...KNOW what you believe.


In Christ...james

 

good morning.

after i went to bed i thought of something i wanted to say..yet left out.

total inability does not mean you are the worst of sinners. total inability draws on the 2 paths you find all thou the Bible. outside of Christ we have total inability.....in Christ we are able for He is able.

 

Tex I'm just looking at these one at a time.

above you will find Origen. there is a few things i do not like about him but this is outside this forum. having said that what you posted is about Gods will...not mans will

He makes Himself known...He is God

 

Again there should be no need to prove anything from these men. but i will look at any you want if that helps

Now Clement I like. Good man. Clement does use alot of verses. I just finished skimming 1 clement and 2 clement and can not find this. It maybe from something else...but this is all i have in my libary. I can guess as to what he means...but i would rather read the full text and be sure. tell me where to find this and i will do just that. If you have no idea...i will guess.

Thanks...James

 

I could not find the writings of Methodius online. Maybe someone else can. I did find in a few places where it is said that his work on “free will” is not his own work. I clipped one bit below. I can not say for sure if this is right...but this is all i found..and it is on many sites. I will keep looking for this work. 1st I will start with Maximus which i know a little about...for if you believe these other sites...the words are more his.

That the work is rightly ascribed to Maximus the testimony of Eusebius is decisive; and St. Jerome says in his Catalogue, that Methodius wrote on free will, while Photius has preserved large extracts from what he knew as the work of Methodius on free will, which clearly prove that it incorporated much of Maximus. The style, moreover, of the opening of the dialogue on free will resembles Methodius, and differs from that of the part concerning matter. We leave, then, to Methodius the rhetorical introduction to his dialogue, but the context appears clearly to shew that the part which belongs to Maximus begins earlier than the portion quoted by Eusebius and printed by Routh. It must include the statement of the views of the speaker, who maintains matter to have existed from eternity, destitute of qualities, and also the announcement of the presence of the third speaker, who afterwards takes up the controversy, on the hypothesis that matter had been from the first possessed of qualities. In Methodius, the defender of the eternity of matter is apparently represented as a Valentinian, for his speeches are marked Val.; and so also in Adamantius. In Maximus he seems to be no heretic, but a sincere inquirer after truth. He propounds the difficulty concerning the origin of evil; if evil was at any time created, then something came out of nothing, since evil did not exist before; and God Who created it must take pleasure in evil, which we cannot admit. He then offers the solution that, co-eternally with God, there existed matter, destitute of form or qualities, and borne about in a disorderly manner; that God took pity on it, separated the best parts from the worst, reduced the former to order, and left the latter behind as being of no use to Him for His work, and that from these lees of matter evil sprang. The most successful part of the orthodox speaker's reply is where he shews that this hypothesis does not relieve God of the charge of being the author of evil.


I will get back with you on this.


In Christ...James

 

donnA

You said, "What if no one had ever accepted?
Would Jesus have died in vain, no one would have been saved by His sacrifice."

That is a great point. If you believe it is man's free-will, then you have to allow for the possibility that Christ would have suffered and died for no one.

That is a far cry from, "I know My sheep, and I call them by name."

 

JArthur,

You're right, there should not be a "need" to prove anything - however - you've created a need.

Basically, the men and women who studied the bible in the ancient languages, at a time when they, or their own parents, may very well have actually known men like Paul, Peter, Stephen, James, and John - interpreted the scriptures to read God is not playing some kind of great cosmic game, and that He does not choose who can or cannot be saved based on some random game of lots cast. He offers grace to all, and those who reject Christ die in their sin. He offers grace to all, and those who accept Christ, are clensed of their sin.

Basically, what you are teaching, though I honestly believe you do not see it - is that everything the majority of Christian churches teach is a lie. You are teaching, in the end, that a personal committment to the Lord Jesus Christ is just another ritual we go through, that it is on the level of an ordance. That in the long run - the reality is - it means nothing at all.

You are absolutely invalidating the cross of Christ with what you teach.

If God had, before the dawn of time, knowing that all men are born in sin, had simply said, "Okay - I'll forgive this batch, and not that batch, and it doesn't matter whether they accept Christ or not," there would be no need for the Cross. Christ would have died in vain.

You also call Christ a liar.
If you read the Great Commission in Mark 16:15, don't stop at verse 15.

Read verse 16.

16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Salvation depends upon faith in Christ. Faith requires a personal committment on our part.

 

King James; That is a common teaching today. IMO, it gives an unbiblical focus on the individual. Scripture says Christ died for His sheep, His church/bride, His saints (us), His people. The focus is on the plural, not on the individual. I can't think of a single time when the focus was on the individual, I could be wrong, but I can't think of even one.

The ultimate expression of God's love was His great mercy toward His people by sending Jesus to die on the cross. That expression would have no meaning if, ultimately, that sacrifice proved to be vain.

 

JD,

I posted the early Christian beliefs because, honestly, I feel that you and JArthur are twisting the scriptures, and hoped that seeing how early Christian Church Father's interpreted the scriptures might help you.

 

TexasSky

I am not sure what you are talking about. I have not responded to your posts on the early Christian beliefs.

I did give a long response to what you had written earlier.

Let me ask you this. Do you really want to have a discussion about this? I do. I will respect your beliefs, and stick with the context of scripture. I will not accuse you of twisting scripture, but I will show you where you miss the context, and if I miss the context, I would be happy to have you show me. At least we are then talking about scripture.

Instead of posting long posts on many texts, let's talk about one text at a time, and just use a verse or two in support. That way we are focused on what the text means.

If you agree, then "ladies first". Choose a text and let the communication begin.

 

Stop a minute at look at what kind of arguments you are building.

We present to you, scripture that says, clearly, God wants all to be saved and all to come to the truth, but you two argue, "Well, no, not really. He doesn't want "all" to come to the truth. He only offers grace to some. He makes it impossible for others."

To support that, you either totally ignore the scriptures that contradict you, or you "excuse them away," with argument.

John Calvin excused them away with, "all doesn't mean all." But the same Greek word is used in "for all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God," as is used in 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repetenance."

Then you say, "Well, that was only to the Christians."

If you say THAT you are saying that Christians can lose salvation.

Obviously that is not what the verse meant.

Then, I show, in Gods word, "God does not show favortism," and you tell me I'm wrong.

Well, go argue with the authors of the bible. Those weren't my words, JD, they were GOD's words.

Acts 10:34 in King James reads 34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

Romans 2:11-12 "For God does not show favortism."

King James reads this way: "11 For there is no respect of persons with God. "

It comes up again in 1 Peter 1:17 "Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially...."

But you go back and say, "Oh, he DOES play favorites, look over here, over here, and over here."

Well, thank you, but I think I'll stick to not judging what He did in the past, and accept His word which three time clearly says, "God does not show favortism."

You look at Ephesians, a letter written to Christians, talking about Christians being "elected" to become joint heirs with Christ, and say, "Individually he said this person could be saved and that one not."

You pull Romans 9 out of context and say, "Well, wait, see, it must mean this....."

And you still don't ... get it.

Diane and I don't have to "twist" and "well, that doesn't mean that," and "well, see over here he did this so it can't mean what it says."

We can easily say, without taking it out of context, without twisting it.

"He that believes and is baptized will be saved;"

"If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him for the dean, thou shalt be saved."

We don't have to try to discredit early Christan fathers to prove our point.

We don't have to claim "all doesn't mean all" to prove our point.

Doesn't that SAY something to you???

And you two come back with arguements that this is talking about Christians. So, basically, you are saying, "He wants all people who already love Christ, people he made love Christ, love Christ."

That isn't what it says. Why stretch so far as to twist the scritpures into that.

God doesn't want man to perish, so God is patient, and gives them time the don't deserve to repent. It is a SIMPLY message of God.

Don't tell me "all doesn't mean all" (A John Calvin claim" in this verse when the SAME GREEK WORD is used for "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." Either "All" means "all" or it doesn't.

If you take the scripture at face value, without going, "Well, I'm sure it can't mean," you're twisting it.

The bible also says, "Titus 2:11 - For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men."

Saving grace is offered to all men.

That's what the scripture tells us.

Not all are saved, but it is OFFERED to all men.

Again, don't twist it. Its there in God's holy word.

You tell me that God plays favorites, and you go back and point your fingers at bible stories and go, "See, he did here."

Well, that is MAN's interpretation. GOD says, "

 

liar? you keep calling me a liar. that's ok...i can take it. what am i doing?... i post the Bible? again this verse you posted...aman..i believe...GOD IS NOT LIEING here or any place.

God can not lie. God will save all...if they will answer his call. This is again the work of God tex. I mean really...can you not see this? mans will does not want to go to Him...can not...will not...not till the Holy Spirit reaches him.

you said..
You're right, there should not be a "need" to prove anything - however - you've created a need.

now this scares me. If your faith is not in the bible you need to drop it right now..and get into the word.

there is no need to go outside the Word to find faith if you can not find it in the bible. You can if it is backed by the Word. I can post mens work to over load this server and fill every disk drive it may have on the works of those that teach bondage of the will. but why do that? Each time we must go back to the bible and see if in fact it is true. I do not take calvin for his word. calvin needs to be inline with Gods word. if it is not....chuck it. is what you hold to true tex?

show me the money....put your bible where your post are.
show me from the Word

I'm not asking for you to match the 500 other verses...just one. all the verses you post are very good. All talks of Gods will. God wants none to go to hell
NONE..NONE..NONE

**********************
i do not follow this..at all why do you say this?
You are absolutely invalidating the cross of Christ with what you teach.
****************************

all i want to know...is the bible right when it says man is DEAD in sins?

in that answer you will find Gods plan.
the quitness of your answer speaks very loud indeed


in christ...james

 

Sky, I hope you were writing that while I posted the other. Let's try again. Ladies first.

 

JD,

I lumped you and Jarthur together in that last post.

I do respect both of you - because I believe that you both are trying to stand on what you believe in right. I just think that the reason you "think it is right," is because someone fed you that doctorine, and like most people fed doctorine, its hard, very hard to let go of it.

I was fed Calvinism when I was a child, and I would look at the verses handed to me, and go, "Oh, well, obviously that's right."

It was back in the days when, if you said, "the Bible," the whold world knew you were saying, "King James Version," because that was the only version out there.

I had this wonderful minister of God. He was the most brilliant man I'd ever met in my life. He held multiple doctorates because he was the type who always wanted to know more about God's word, so He studied theology, then history, then linguistics, etc., etc.

Well, He stood up there and took King James where it says, "Matthew 5:6 - Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." And he explained, "A lot of you read your bible, and you think you know what it means, then you go a little further in Christ, you grow a little more in Christ, and you realize, "I wasn't reading that in the spirit of the whole word of God," and you go back, and study it again, for a deeper meaning. This verse is talking to you. Blessed are those that crave pleasing God so much that you feel like you are starving, and dying of thirst. The Greek doesn't use the tenses that imply you would like a glass of tea for lunch, the Greek implies a word that means you've crawled over the desert for days, and your lips are cracked and bleeding, and your tongue has swelled, and you would rather die than go on without water. That's how much you have to want to know the truth to really find it."

Well, I wanted it that badly. I prayed, I studied, I prayed. I begged God to show His truth, not "John Calvin's," or "Dwight L. Moody," or anyone but God.

And I realized, that when we take men out of it, and we pray over it, is so simple.

God loved the world so much, that He gave his ONLY begotten son.

I'm a parent. I couldn't give up my son or daughter for another human being. Much less for one that was always rejecting me, always despising me, always mocking me. But GOD LOVED US ENOUGH TO DO THAT FOR US.

God does not desire that any should perish.
God WANTS us to repent.
God wants people to repent and be saved so badly that He sacrificed the only pure and holy Child in all the heavens and earth to provide a way FOR people to repent.

God says, "Here it is. My royal pardon, take it, and you'll be a child of God. I'll adopt you as my own. You will BE the elect of God."

And some people go, "Nah, thanks, but I can do it on my own. Don't need you."

But God did NOT ~make~ them do that.
God LOVES them.
God offered forgiveness to them.

JUST as God offered it to the rich man in the bible who said, "I want to be saved, but not if means giving up my money." God offered, and God knew the man's heart was wrapped up in gold, but God offered.

Its so simple.

"IF YOU BELIEVE," .... If you accept the gift He offers.

If you return His love.

If you ACCEPT His love.

It is so simple, and its right there in God's word. No twisting, no turning. No Ph.D.'s needed.

God desires that all men.....

[ July 01, 2005, 10:47 AM: Message edited by: TexasSky ]

 

"God wants none to go to hell
NONE..NONE..NONE"

So you're saying God is impotent against the power of man? this kind of double speak I don't like. If God decides who will be saved, you cannot say He wants none to go to hell or else all would be saved and none would go to hell.. You just can't say it.

Either He wants all to be saved or He doesn't. Please be consistent...us Arminians may be "wrong" but we are not stupid. Please lose the double speak. Thank you.

jdcanady, thanks for your explanation. I do believe that God loves and cares about the individual though. Sure He talks of His sheep, but then we know that He will leave the 99 to find the one lost one.

 

Sky

I see that. I am asking if you want to have a civil discussion about scripture. Please choose a text, one text, and let's discuss it. You choose one, we will discuss it. Then I will choose one, and we will discuss it. If not, just tell me you don't want to do it, and I will move on to something that has some chance of being productive.

 

King James

Very good point concerning the 99 and 1. My point was that sheep is plural. I can see where that might sound like I am saying God doesn't care about the individual and that was not what I was trying to say.

By the way, your point about arminianism is very good. At least the Arminians are consisitent with their logic. If God does really desire all to be saved, then all will be saved.