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Is this a contradiction?

michelle

New Member
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Now, let's take this, further, michelle. God has shown John and Michael that this is how they should choose deacons based on drawing lots, since this is the way that they did it in Acts 1. How do you, show them that they are wrong? How do you know what this passage is teaching or not teaching?
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This is how God says to, not Michelle:


2 Tim. 2

14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

GeneMBridges

New Member
Originally posted by michelle:
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How do you know you are right and I am wrong if I say that God, using this same Scripture above, has shown me that my NASB is God's Word just like the KJV is too?
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Because you refuse to see and hear those who have warned you (warning you)and have shown you of those things in that version, and others that have ALTERED the words of the Lord, and try to JUSTIFY them with your human reasoning and false logic, that does NOT come from the scriptural truth.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
No, God has shown me that you are the one that is wrong. You are not privy to my relationship with God. He has shown me this. He has used the same Scriptures to show me this about my NASB that He has used with you regarding your KJV. He has further shown me that where the words are altered, they have been altered away from false doctrines like baptismal regeneration, episcopalian church government, and a belief in mortal and venial sins (a core Catholic doctrine), all found in the KJV. He has shown me this, michelle. He has shown me that you are the one refusing the warnings.

Now, how do you know that I am right and you are wrong. I can use all the same Scriptures as you making the same claims about you.
 

GeneMBridges

New Member
Originally posted by michelle:
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Now, let's take this, further, michelle. God has shown John and Michael that this is how they should choose deacons based on drawing lots, since this is the way that they did it in Acts 1. How do you, show them that they are wrong? How do you know what this passage is teaching or not teaching?
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This is how God says to, not Michelle:


2 Tim. 2

14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
15. Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
Bingo! Now, what would you study if that person used the same Scriptures you might use in order to repudiate their position in order to repudiate yours?

What I'm trying to get at is, "How do you overcome the stalemate?
 

av1611jim

New Member
Originally posted by manchester:
Michelle,

Why do the vast majority discern, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, to not use the KJV and to use instead a MV?
Probably for the same reason that many embrace evolution while claiming the Holy Spirit opened the Scriptures to them about this "truth".

If majority opinion were the determiner (right word?) then we should embrace abortion? Or drunkeness? Or promiscuity?

Your "majority" argument fails the test simply because it was the "majority" who nailed Jesus to the cross. In fact it was more than the majority since it was the unanimity of our sin which nailed Him there.
No sir; appeals to "majority" no more works for you as your side claims it does not work for us, i.e. "Majority Text".
In His service
Jim
 

manchester

New Member
Michelle,

Only the Geneva Bible is God's Word. The KJV changed it, and therefore the KJV is not 100% God's Word. We know from scripture that God has preserved his Word, and that is the Geneva Bible. The KJV has removed books and verses, and it changed wording. The scriptures are clear that the Geneva Bible is the only true Word of God in English.
 

manchester

New Member
Originally posted by av1611jim:
If majority opinion were the determiner (right word?) then we should embrace abortion? Or drunkeness? Or promiscuity?

Your "majority" argument fails the test simply because it was the "majority" who nailed Jesus to the cross. In fact it was more than the majority since it was the unanimity of our sin which nailed Him there.
We should not follow the majority. The Geneva Bible was given to us by God, as scripture says. It is God's Word and was known as such from the beginning. The people rejected the KJV as an inferior translation but began to leave the Geneva Bible out of worldliness and following the king's threats rather than God.
 

GeneMBridges

New Member
Originally posted by michelle:
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Now you're telling me that I did not discern God's will and that I am grieving the Holy Spirit. YOu aren't privy to what goes on between me and God. I KNOW by the Scriptures, prayer, et.al. that the NASB is God's Word. I know by the same Scriptures you use to support your position that this is true.
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If one actually judged this issue by the scriptures, one would then not come to this conclusion, and this is how I can say that one is greiving the Holy Spirit in this issue. You have listened to your own feelings, and opinions of men ABOVE that of what the scriptures reveal.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
No, you do not know me. Only God and I know me. God has used the Scriptures to show me what I believe. He has used the same Scriptures as He has used with you. I know God. I hear His voice. I know when He speaks. He has showed me this about the NASB, the same way as He has showed you abt. the KJV.

You, see, I'm trying to get you to understand something, michelle. I can use all the same things you have said against MV's against the KJV, and I can also use the same Scriptures you use and make the same kind of high appeal to God showing me these truths from my relationship with Him that what you believe about the KJV is false and what I believe about MV's is true.

By saying that I have not relied on the Scriptures, et.al. you are assuming without any warrant that your relationship to God is somehow superior to mine and that you understand God's Word but I don't, or that I am not listening to God but you are...but that puts you up as a judge over my character and my relationship to God. This is unScriptural.
 

michelle

New Member
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Yes, and how can you rightly divide it without understanding the historical context in which it was written. If you read my example carefully, it shows that, if you didn't understand that John was writing to repudiate the Gnostics and to teach about apostasy, you'd arrive at the same conclusion that freeatlast does in the thread from which I lifted that exegesis.
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Actually you seem to be the one who "needed" that extra and unnecessary information to come to the truth, that I already understood, without it.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

Phillip

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Michelle:


NO, all you seem to be attempting to do, is to confuse the simple truth and in the process think yourself wise, when in fact you are doing and exhibiting the oppostite of it.

[/QB][/QUOTE]
See, Michelle, here is the problem that is occuring. You are telling people here who have either been pastors or long-time Christians that they consider themselves wise, but that you have been told by God that you know more than they do.

You say that it is a "simple truth" they are missing.

When you do quote scripture, a good portion of it is scripture where scribes or Pharisees are being chastised because of their hard-headedness, primarily because they believe in the Jewish Law and ignore "The Way".

You are trying to apply any scripture that refers to a wise-man to show that people here who claim to be scholars are wrong simply because portions of your Bible say they are not.

Don't forget, one of the wisest men that ever lived was King Solomon. So, just because a person is wise and a person is a scholar does not make that person wrong.

When you post scripture like this, it is considered an attack and it IS out of context because it has nothing to do with translations and just because wise-men are being pointed at in that particular scripture does not make today's scholars fit into the same category.

You do quote a lot of verses, but for the life of me, or most of the other people on this thread and others, we cannot understand HOW they fit into your belief.

You might try explaining how they fit. Just because something was posted somewhere in the website six months ago does not mean that we have all seen your answers. This is the reason I often repeat myself, so that new people will understand what we are talking about without having to read tons of ancient posts.

I think sometimes you may not want to explain your scripture because you know it is posted as an attack towards the scholars you are arguing with.

It would help to be more believable and keep the threads on track by answering questions (all questions) even if you have to say you are wrong (and I know you have that capability); or even answering that you do not know. You do not have to have an answer for every single thing, but you always try and if you don't have one, you make the poster out to be someone who is posting something that is irrelevant to the subject.

Just a few things to think about in providing an arguable defense for your theories.
 

manchester

New Member
If you judge this issue by the scriptures, rather than your own hearts, you will see that the Geneva Bible is the 100% Word of God.

John 5

37. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41. I receive not honour from men.
42. But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43. I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44. How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45. Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46. For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47. But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


Romans 10

1. Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
3. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
5. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
6. But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
7. Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
8. But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9. That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18. But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
19. But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.
20. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.
 

russell55

New Member
Because you refuse to see and hear those who have warned you (warning you)and have shown you of those things in that version, and others that have ALTERED the words of the Lord, and try to JUSTIFY them with your human reasoning and false logic, that does NOT come from the scriptural truth.
Cooking utensils again....
 

michelle

New Member
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I think you are confusing what we mean when we say "historical background." We are not saying we should sift everything through the sieve of a couple thousand years of tradition and interpretation. We are saying we should understand the historical background of that particular text . The term "literal" interpretation doesn't mean, for example "wooden literalism." It means that, to understand a text, you have to interpret it according to the type of literature it is. For example, if you don't understand the types of parallelism in OT prophecy, you won't understand how Matthew can attach the meanings he does to OT prophecy in relationship to Jesus and how He fulfilled prophecy. The Mosaic Law is a Suzerain Covenant. If you interpret it without knowing what that form is, you won't understand how law functions in the OT and how and why we can say that we are not under the OT dietary laws, for example. This is what textual criticism is about.
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I would like to see the scriptures that you recieve this belief from, that we must rely upon outside historical truth, in order to understand God's truth in the scriptures? God tells us differently. We are to study the scriptures, and rightly divide the word of truth having FAITH in those scriptures.
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love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

manchester

New Member
There are many here who claim that the KJV is God's Word. But it is clear that the KJV changed the Word of the Geneva Bible that God gave us, adding words from the Catholic Douay-Rheims. You refuse to see and hear those who have warned you and shown you of those things in that version. You ignore that others have ALTERED the words of the Lord, and try to JUSTIFY them with your human reasoning and false logic, that does NOT come from the scriptural truth.
 

michelle

New Member
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The Mosaic Law is a Suzerain Covenant. If you interpret it without knowing what that form is, you won't understand how law functions in the OT and how and why we can say that we are not under the OT dietary laws, for example. This is what textual criticism is about.
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I do know it, and do not need to learn outside information to know it, as the scriptures explain it quite well. Paul explains it very well in the book of Romans, as well as other scriptures also.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

GeneMBridges

New Member
Originally posted by michelle:
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Yes, and how can you rightly divide it without understanding the historical context in which it was written. If you read my example carefully, it shows that, if you didn't understand that John was writing to repudiate the Gnostics and to teach about apostasy, you'd arrive at the same conclusion that freeatlast does in the thread from which I lifted that exegesis.
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Actually you seem to be the one who "needed" that extra and unnecessary information to come to the truth, that I already understood, without it.

love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
No, I actually understood that too, but the entire point is that freeatlast DOESN'T understand what 1 John teaches and he is bending it to suit his own position. So, since you and I can make the same appeal to faith that he does, then how can we show him that his belief is incorrrect?

I contend that one very good way is to consider the historical background of the letter itself, in other words, look at the author's original intent, etc. This is what textual criticism does. It supports what you and I believe about 1 John over what freeatlast believes and it also confirms what you and I, by the illumination of the Holy Spirit and personal faith, concluded. THAT is my entire point regarding textual criticism. You seem to be "throwing out the baby with the bathwater," with regard to its use.
 

manchester

New Member
I don't understand how you can justify abandoning God's Word in favor of new translations like the KJV, NIV, NASB, HSCB. You know God gave us the Geneva Bible. Baptists were persecuted for holding onto God's Word and resisting King James, who forced the KJV on people that intentionally changed doctrine from GOD'S WORD the Geneva Bible. They added Roman Catholic teachings to God's Word. God has warned you to stay away from these new translations and to stay with the Geneva Bible. As for me and my house, we will choose the Geneva Bible.
 

russell55

New Member
I would like to see the scriptures that you recieve this belief from, that we must rely upon outside historical truth, in order to understand God's truth in the scriptures?
No one says we must rely on outside historical truth. Historical context is a TOOL. A study tool. A rightly dividing tool.

God tells us differently.
No, he tells us to study to show ourselves approved. To be careful in how we handle the word, and part of the care we take with scriptures is to understand what it meant in its historical context. We understand what it means to us by understanding what it meant to those who originally received it in the time it was written.

We are to study the scriptures, and rightly divide the word of truth having FAITH in those scriptures.
Exactly.
 

michelle

New Member
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No, michelle, it is illogical to use these kinds of arguments in order to support your position. Logic is simply the process of sound reasoning. I am not talking about God's Word, I am talking about your thought process. I need not use the Bible to criticize it, however, I'll happily do so.
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And we are instructed to have the "mind of Christ" and the wisdom of God, not the wisdom of the world. The "mind of Christ" and the wisdom of God is by FAITH in God and HIS WORDS and TRUTH to which come from them.


YOu are attempting to say my Faith is illogical, and illogical fallicy. This is untrue, and a very unwise position to be taking. You are saying my thoughts are not based upon scriptures. You are clearly wrong, as my thoughts are in Christ Jesus to which are revealed in the scriptures, HIS WORDS of truth.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle
 

manchester

New Member
YOu are attempting to say my Faith is illogical, and illogical fallicy. This is untrue, and a very unwise position to be taking. You are saying my thoughts are not based upon scriptures. You are clearly wrong, as my thoughts are in Christ Jesus to which are revealed in the scriptures, HIS WORDS of truth.
It is illogical to worship the KJV. It is illogical to put the KJV above God's Word. God's Word says not to alter, add or remove but the KJV adds Roman Catholic doctrine to God's Word. There are countless changes between God's Word and the KJV. GOD'S WORDS tell us to use the Geneva Bible.
 
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