Is this a contradiction?

[natters]

michelle said "Interesting you bring up our Lord's prayer."

Yes, interesting indeeed. Interesting how you completely deflected my question.

michelle said "Which one is HIS words? Which should I pray, the one or the other?"

That's exactly what I have been asking YOU. Matt or Luke? Who has the true words of our Lord, and who altered the words? Once you tell me that, I'll be able to tell you about the NIV.

michelle said "You need to ask God this, as they are HIS words, and the way HE CHOSE to give them. They however do not contradict one another, nor are they different. This is not a good enouph reason to try to justify and condone alterations to God's words."

They ARE different, as is easily seen by opening a KJV and comparing between the gospels. According to you, different words = different message = corruption of God's words.

Spin, spin, spin.

michelle said "You have posted scriptures that show you have contradicted yourself and show your confusion."

First you say I have not posted scripture, then you say I have posted scripture. The scriptures I have posted do not show any contradiction or confusion on my part, but only that you do not understand.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by michelle:
--------------------------------------------------
For some the process simply meant accepting the tried and true 1769 KJV (very very few use the 1611).
--------------------------------------------------


This of course, is where you are wrong. Our KJB of today is the same thing as that in 1611. If you so desire to believe that the printing/spelling/typeface errors, constitute true errors in the words of God, even though they were and are corrected, then by all means. But know this, all that can come from your belief is to sow doubt to others, and encourage doubt and confusion of others and in oppostition to the obvious and wonderful truth that our God is faithful and that He has indeed provided for us as He has promised.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

Michelle, it is you that is hiding your head in the sand ignoring the fact that the 1611 is far from being the Oxford version you use today. You can argue that issue all day and we have proven you wrong, you just won't accept it.

There are MANY changes beyond typos/spelling/etc. that have been made to the KJV1769 version. You cannot hold your "word-for-word" inerrancy theory and accept all of the changes of the 1611 unless you believe in 1769 inspiration.

 

[manchester]

michelle said "You need to ask God this, as they are HIS words, and the way HE CHOSE to give them. They however do not contradict one another, nor are they different. This is not a good enouph reason to try to justify and condone alterations to God's words."

There is more difference between the two versions of the Lord's Prayer than there is between the HCSB and the KJV as translations.

 

[av1611jim]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />My Bible either IS or IS NOT Scripture.

It is a translation of the Scripture.

Each of us has gone through the process of coming to a faith based conviction as to the choice of translation(s) and the details surrounding and leading up to this choice.

For some the process simply meant accepting the tried and true 1769 KJV (very very few use the 1611).

Others choose to exercise their faith based conviction after a deeper study and I'm not saying that this is greater/better method than the former.

What is clearly wrong IMO are those who want to play God, issuing innuendo and insults accusing others of being liars and fools without being able to look into their hearts with threats of the final judgment concerning one's spirituality and/or salvation simply because the choice of others is not the same as their own.

Clearly a place where only God Himself can sit, who alone is able to judge the thoughts and intents of the human heart.

James 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?


HankD </font>[/QUOTE]By stating that it is a translation of Scripture; am I to understand you that just because it is in English and not Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic it is NOT Scripture?

I have NEVER questioned one's Salvation based on their chioce of which translation they use. They who do are not wise. Nor have I questioned anyone's spirituality on that basis.

You say God alone is able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart? So then, following along logically, are you equating Scripture with God?
Heb 4:12 "The word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, AND IS A DISCERNER OF THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE HEART."
Hmmm, methinks ye have a problem....
In His service;
Jim

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by michelle:
--------------------------------------------------
Michelle,
What about the doubt sown by telling a teen they either do not know Christ as their savior, or can't grow spiritually because they don't use the KJB???
--------------------------------------------------

No one here has ever said such a thing, nor have they ever implied such a thing, and have said quite the opposite. The scriptures do not sow doubt, and to believe and know the scriptures in the KJB are the very words of God in our English language, and to claim that does not. This can hurt the faith of some, and keep others from coming to faith.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

You are not understanding what is being said. Let me give you an example. I know several children who could not and would not read the King James Version of the Bible. It went right over their head. But, when handed an NIV or HCSB, they have devoured them and many are good Christian kids now, but they just absolutely could not absorb the archaic language.

My wife teaches a special Ed class at church. The girls are ALL in their 20's and not one of those girls can read a KJV. THey won't. They have tried. I have seen them try. I have seen the frustration. Give them an NIV or HCSB and their eyes are just literally opened with the understanding of God. It is fascinating to watch.

Having another translation doesn't seem to confuse anybody. It certainly doesn't confuse anybody in our church. I taught a class on Sunday nights on manuscripts up through today and even showed them my many old Bibles (that are usually kept in storage because of the value and fragilness (sp?). Anyway, the class asked some simple questions and once explained, they understood instantly. Nobody is confused about the translations.

They are aware that bad translations can occur and to watch out for them. But we have a cross section that carry the KJV, NKJV, NIV, HCSB, ESV and NASB primarily. NOBODY IS CONFUSED. But if you were to come along and start spouting KJVonlyism---yes, that might cause confusion, but not until you would come around with your circular logic.

We discussed KJVonlyism in the class. It was brought up and I let the class decide for themselves and based on the lack of scriptural evidence, they dismissed it without much of a discussion.

My pastor isn't even a TR fan, although he uses an NKJV so that there is a little closer understanding with the older folks that just like their old KJV. By the way, my class was made up mostly of folks over 50 who most have been in church all of their lives.

I can even testify that the Lord has opened my eyes with translations and speaks to me using translations other than the KJV.

If there IS confusion, it is because of the false KJVo beliefs stirring it up, not the other way around.

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
michelle said "You have posted scriptures that show you have contradicted yourself and show your confusion."

First you say I have not posted scripture, then you say I have posted scripture. The scriptures I have posted do not show any contradiction or confusion on my part, but only that you do not understand.
--------------------------------------------------


You are constantly confused aren't you Natters? You can't even tell how converstations have progressed, and what has been said? Or are you just trying to argue? I think it is the latter. You hadn't been giving support of scriptures that confirm where your BELIEF in this issue comes from. You hadn't given any for the longest time, until just yesturday, possibly some the previous day, to which I have said from that point on, that you are showing yourself to be in contradiction to what those scriptures say.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------

Dr. Bob quoted:

I think the vast majority have faith that the KJV is not the inerrant, full and faithful transmission of the Word of God to the English people. Only a small minority hold to the (very new) tradition of believing KJVo.
--------------------------------------------------


And in my opinion, and observation, it only reflects the truth that God has warned us of in the following:

2 Timothy 3
1. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3. Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4. Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7. Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
8. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
9. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
10. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
11. Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
12. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


2 Thessalonians 2


1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6. And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17. Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[natters]

michelle said "You are constantly confused aren't you Natters?"

No. The word is "amused", not "confused".

michelle said "You can't even tell how converstations have progressed, and what has been said?"

I can tell when coversations have been avoided.

michelle said "You hadn't been giving support of scriptures that confirm where your BELIEF in this issue comes from."

I have, repeatedly.

michelle said "to which I have said from that point on, that you are showing yourself to be in contradiction to what those scriptures say."

Yes, you said that, but you were wrong because you don't understand either the scriptures nor my position. You are so wrapped up in you presuppositions that you can't see beyond the end of your nose, you cannot even comprehend the points others are making.

 

[Phillip]

Originally posted by michelle:
--------------------------------------------------
First you say I have not posted scripture, then you say I have posted scripture.

Again, you are misreading the posts.

ONE: You have NOT posted any scripture to provide support that the KJV is the only true Word of God in the English language.

TWO: You have posted many, many irrelevant scriptures.

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
Michelle, that is a 100% totally false and intentionally evil statement. I do not know of ANY who believe this. You amaze me with your bibliolatry of a version.

--------------------------------------------------

Rather it is evil to say something that is not true, just as you have done. It is evil to say that no one today in English has the very words of God 100%. This is EVIL, and also a LIE.


--------------------------------------------------
We have a thread with 400 major phrases or words that differ form the AV1611 until the 1860 revisions. 400. This is in addition to the other changes in the evolution of language.

--------------------------------------------------


You might want to read this link:

http://www.learnthebible.org/non_existent_revisions_in_the_king_james_bible.htm

....and this one

http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/best.htm


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[natters]

michelle said "It is evil to say that no one today in English has the very words of God 100%."

I don't say that, but why is it evil? It is what you said about 1610 and earlier.

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
michelle said "to which I have said from that point on, that you are showing yourself to be in contradiction to what those scriptures say."

Yes, you said that, but you were wrong because you don't understand either the scriptures nor my position. You are so wrapped up in you presuppositions that you can't see beyond the end of your nose, you cannot even comprehend the points others are making.
--------------------------------------------------


No, I understand you quite well. You said you believe all the versions (valid)out there today are God's words. You show that you not only contradict what God has said about HIS WORDS, but in them also. You contradict yourself, and show you are truly confused, or that you don't really believe what the scriptures say about themselves.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
I don't say that, but why is it evil? It is what you said about 1610 and earlier.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No I didn't. This is your assumption, based upon your own circular reasoning and false logic that you seem to think I and everyone else are bound to.


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[HankD]

By stating that it is a translation of Scripture; am I to understand you that just because it is in English and not Hebrew/Greek/Aramaic it is NOT Scripture?

It is Scripture, The Word of God by derivation.

God did not give His Word in the English language but "God-breathed" His words through holy men of old prophets and apostles.

I have NEVER questioned one's Salvation based on their chioce of which translation they use. They who do are not wise. Nor have I questioned anyone's spirituality on that basis.

I did not name you in particular, but nonetheless you have in an indirect manner judged me by saying that I have a problem.

You say God alone is able to judge the thoughts and intents of the heart? So then, following along logically, are you equating Scripture with God?
Heb 4:12 "The word of God is quick and powerful and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, AND IS A DISCERNER OF THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE HEART."
Hmmm, methinks ye have a problem....

Yes, I am equating the Scripture with God as it is the means whereby He judges.

The Spirit of God uses the Word of God to reprove and convict. Jesus Christ is called by the word Logos here and in John 1:1 The Logos and that is the meaning of this passage.

You are not able to judge another in respect to the heart and internal workings for two reasons: First, you cannot even know your own heart until God Himself reveals it to you.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
10 I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.

Secondly, you don't have the ability to see into another's heart:
2 Samuel 16:7 ...for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

Third, several people here at the BB when unable to give a reasonable response or sense that they are not having the upper hand in a debate will resort to the ad homimen tactic and issue a judgment against me as when you implied that I had a problem.

Jesus said "by their fruit shall you know them".

This is the only thing that we can know. When someone expresses their heart in a mean-spirited insult or denigarting innuendo then we can know that they are at least disobedient to the greatest commandment given by God come in the flesh:

"Love one another".

I do realize there is a place for a rebuke from another brother/sister and I am open to that.

And I do you love you brother.

HankD

 

[Ziggy]

Meanwhile, earlier in this thread, Michelle said, “Here is a link that I recommend you read:”

From that link, a comment by the author, D. A. Waite, a KJVO/TRO advocate: “...although there might be other renderings from the original languages which could also be acceptable to us today.”

Waite is speaking of other acceptable *English* renderings of the same underlying Greek TR text as that of the KJV. Do you accept that comment as well, Michelle?

 

[natters]

michelle said "You said you believe all the versions (valid)out there today are God's words. You show that you not only contradict what God has said about HIS WORDS, but in them also. You contradict yourself, and show you are truly confused, or that you don't really believe what the scriptures say about themselves."

The contradiction is only in your mind, because you do not understand.

I said "I don't say that [It is evil to say that no one today in English has the very words of God 100%], but why is it evil? It is what you said about 1610 and earlier.

michelle said "No I didn't."

Yes you did. On Aug 22 you said about those living before 1611 and using the Geneva, "They obviously did not yet have the perfect word of God yet."

 

[Ziggy]

How my previous post got reposted, I don't know, but the continuation was supposed to be this:

Ziggy: “Waite is speaking of other acceptable *English* renderings of the same underlying Greek TR text as that of the KJV. Do you accept that comment as well, Michelle?”

Michelle: “Yes, I do, and have said as much.”

Then please tell me, Michelle, *why oh why* (pardon my failure to understand at this juncture) do you endlessly quibble regarding two or more legitimate English renderings of the same underlying Greek word? For example, “witness” versus “record”; “Easter” versus “Passover”; “preached” versus “published”; “in” versus “on”; or any of the hundreds of equal alternate readings provided in the margin of the KJV original edition itself.

In these and other cases you have claimed that a distinction and differentiation actually matters, and this stands in contrast with what Waite says, with which you now claim to agree (and, BTW, Waite himself thereby agrees with the KJV translators and their preface).

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
There is more difference between the two versions of the Lord's Prayer than there is between the HCSB and the KJV as translations.
--------------------------------------------------


Really? How so?


Matthew 6

9. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11. Give us this day our daily bread.
12. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.


Luke 11

2. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
3. Give us day by day our daily bread.
4. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil.


Love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle

 

[manchester]

"For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen."

You have added to the Word of God.

 

[michelle]

--------------------------------------------------
The contradiction is only in your mind, because you do not understand.
--------------------------------------------------


What is it I do not understand?


love in Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour,
michelle