Is this a doctrinal of PERSONAL issue in the church?

[AVL1984]

Let's say that a church staff person tells the pastor that he and his family are leaving the church if they don't make sure that EVERYONE in the church is vaccinated and wearing masks, that he and his family don't feel safe attending and participating any longer in the church. This person really doesn't give the pastor an option, but rather, an ultimatum, and then abruptly resigns. I don't find anything "Doctrinal" about this reason for leaving the church, just a personal and selfish reason, IMHO. It seems like this person is trying to rule the rest of the believers in the church, forcing his point of view on them. No Scriptures, nothing to indicate it's a doctrinal issue.
Question is, do any of you feel this is a doctrinal issue? I just can't seem to clarify this person's position with the Bible. No fighting please. This is a divisive enough issue, and I want to keep it civil. If you don't act civil, I will ask that the thread be closed. Please, if you believe it IS a doctrinal position, then share you Scriptures. Thanks.

 

[xlsdraw]

Our PASTOR has rightly spoken this phrase many times from the pulpit over the years when addressing government overreach and to those influenced by it:

"The same door that let you in will let you out."

God's man, that God calls to Pastor, is called to lead the flock, according to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Period.

Our PASTOR also rightly said last year from the pulpit:

"I don't have the authority to close God's church."

We walked by faith, trusting in the Lord's preservation, ignoring the random outside faithless criticism, and never cancelled a single service. No mask mandating.

The PASTOR has the responsibility to speak out and stand firm against government overreach. There is no room for cowards in God's pulpits.

 

[rlvaughn]

If you mean from the standpoint of the reasoning of the person protesting against not wearing and not getting vaccinated -- no, he has no biblical doctrine to support his cause. If he thinks it is, he should be able to make a biblical case beyond just not feeling safe at the church meeting.

However, I think it is doctrinal in the sense that this person defies the biblical doctrine of humility, as well as the doctrine of submission to the leadership of the church.

 

[AVL1984]

If you mean from the standpoint of the reasoning of the person protesting against not wearing and not getting vaccinated -- no, he has no biblical doctrine to support his cause. If he thinks it is, he should be able to make a biblical case beyond just not feeling safe at the church meeting.

However, I think it is doctrinal in the sense that this person defies the biblical doctrine of humility, as well as the doctrine of submission to the leadership of the church.

I totally agree! This person, from what I understand of the situation, basically gave the pastor an ultimatum, but never even gave him much of a chance to explain that he didn't have the power Scripturally or legally to mandate such a thing. These people have not been happy in the church for a while, and it's been apparent in his attitude. We were sorry to hear he left for personal instead of Scriptural reasons. It just helped confirm what we had thought all along, that he wasn't strong enough in his faith or his willingness to stay and try to prove his point. It's ALWAYS easier to leave for no real reason. Sad.

 

[Yeshua1]

I totally agree! This person, from what I understand of the situation, basically gave the pastor an ultimatum, but never even gave him much of a chance to explain that he didn't have the power Scripturally or legally to mandate such a thing. These people have not been happy in the church for a while, and it's been apparent in his attitude. We were sorry to hear he left for personal instead of Scriptural reasons. It just helped confirm what we had thought all along, that he wasn't strong enough in his faith or his willingness to stay and try to prove his point. It's ALWAYS easier to leave for no real reason. Sad.

We have the situation in my church that there are mainly older members who feel that we must wear masks and do social distancing, so that happens in 10 AM service, while 11:30 one is mask free zone! We get about 4X more in second service!

 

[annsni]

It is selfish to want to be safe? I disagree with that. However, if the government mandates that cover the church/church community say that everyone needs to wear masks indoors, then the church should absolutely follow that mandate. Right now there are no mandates that church attendees need to be vaccinated so there is no way for a church to make that a requirement of attendance (and I don't think that it ever will be). That said, we have not attended in person church since early March 2020 other than one Sunday my husband was asked to preach at our old church because the entire pastoral staff was exposed to Covid and in quarantine. When he went, he stayed completely separate from everyone, only entering the sanctuary to preach and then he left without hanging out with people. This has been because he has 70% lung capacity on a good day due to asthma and this virus could easily kill him so we have instead done online church with our new church, facilitating the online discussion.

But that said, I'm really saddened by the response to this virus and the government mandates amongst church people. At one time I felt the church cared about people's lives and were willing to sacrifice for them but I see now that comfort is more important. What the world is seeing of the church is something that I believe hurts the cause of Christ and certainly is not at all how Christ responded to people. It has me really disillusioned.

 

[xlsdraw]

It is selfish to want to be safe? I disagree with that. However, if the government mandates that cover the church/church community say that everyone needs to wear masks indoors, then the church should absolutely follow that mandate. Right now there are no mandates that church attendees need to be vaccinated so there is no way for a church to make that a requirement of attendance (and I don't think that it ever will be). That said, we have not attended in person church since early March 2020 other than one Sunday my husband was asked to preach at our old church because the entire pastoral staff was exposed to Covid and in quarantine. When he went, he stayed completely separate from everyone, only entering the sanctuary to preach and then he left without hanging out with people. This has been because he has 70% lung capacity on a good day due to asthma and this virus could easily kill him so we have instead done online church with our new church, facilitating the online discussion.

But that said, I'm really saddened by the response to this virus and the government mandates amongst church people. At one time I felt the church cared about people's lives and were willing to sacrifice for them but I see now that comfort is more important. What the world is seeing of the church is something that I believe hurts the cause of Christ and certainly is not at all how Christ responded to people. It has me really disillusioned.

What a load of virtue signaling. It is you that has chosen the cowardly path of comfort and self-preservation. Shame on you for not trusting the Lord.

 

[Reformed1689]

Let's say that a church staff person tells the pastor that he and his family are leaving the church if they don't make sure that EVERYONE in the church is vaccinated and wearing masks, that he and his family don't feel safe attending and participating any longer in the church. This person really doesn't give the pastor an option, but rather, an ultimatum, and then abruptly resigns. I don't find anything "Doctrinal" about this reason for leaving the church, just a personal and selfish reason, IMHO. It seems like this person is trying to rule the rest of the believers in the church, forcing his point of view on them. No Scriptures, nothing to indicate it's a doctrinal issue.
Question is, do any of you feel this is a doctrinal issue? I just can't seem to clarify this person's position with the Bible. No fighting please. This is a divisive enough issue, and I want to keep it civil. If you don't act civil, I will ask that the thread be closed. Please, if you believe it IS a doctrinal position, then share you Scriptures. Thanks.

No, this person is actively sinning.

 

[Reformed1689]

However, if the government mandates that cover the church/church community say that everyone needs to wear masks indoors, then the church should absolutely follow that mandate.

In the United States the government has no such authority.

 

[Reformed1689]

But that said, I'm really saddened by the response to this virus and the government mandates amongst church people. At one time I felt the church cared about people's lives and were willing to sacrifice for them but I see now that comfort is more important. What the world is seeing of the church is something that I believe hurts the cause of Christ and certainly is not at all how Christ responded to people. It has me really disillusioned.

It's not about comfort, it is about freedom. The government has no authority over churches, period. Not to mention the mandates are not about safety or science. That has been proven time and time again.

 

[Reformed1689]

. When he went, he stayed completely separate from everyone, only entering the sanctuary to preach and then he left without hanging out with people.

Again, not based in science. Studies show it doesn't matter if you are 6 feet or 60 feet away if you are indoors you can contract the virus because you are breathing the same air.

God has already appointed a certain day and time for everyone to die. No need to live in this ridiculous fear.

 

[Yeshua1]

Again, not based in science. Studies show it doesn't matter if you are 6 feet or 60 feet away if you are indoors you can contract the virus because you are breathing the same air.

God has already appointed a certain day and time for everyone to die. No need to live in this ridiculous fear.

This in one area where we should really trust hard and lean into the sovereignty of God!

 

[Yeshua1]

It's not about comfort, it is about freedom. The government has no authority over churches, period. Not to mention the mandates are not about safety or science. That has been proven time and time again.

That is my main concern, as all for safety, but not at the expense of the government dictating how and when can hold services!

 

[Scarlett O.]

What a load of virtue signaling. It is you that has chosen the cowardly path of comfort and self-preservation. Shame on you for not trusting the Lord.

There is trusting the Lord.

Then there is tempting the Lord.

Two VERY different things. If my husband only had 70% lung capacity, he would not be in close circles of crowds either.

She is not cowardly.

 

[xlsdraw]

There is trusting the Lord.

Then there is tempting the Lord.

Two VERY different things. If my husband only had 70% lung capacity, he would not be in close circles of crowds either.

She is not cowardly.

You are not an authority on what is and isn't tempting God. The Scriptures command to not forsake the assembling, Period.

Her and her husband's stance is not walking by faith. They should surrender the pastorate to a man that will assemble God's people.

As a matter of fact, you should know that I do not recognize you as possessing discernment.

You have publicly professed on the Baptist Board that you have a "Christian" friend that has left his wife of many years to pursue a homosexual relationship with another man. You have asserted that your homosexual friend is a "Christian".

There is no scriptural support for your assertion. There is crystal clear scriptural support for your friend's Depravity.

 

[annsni]

And the responses to my response once again tells me how much evil there is in the church today. The teachings of Christ are ignored for comfort and one's own desires. Once again - sad.

 

[xlsdraw]

And the responses to my response once again tells me how much evil there is in the church today. The teachings of Christ are ignored for comfort and one's own desires. Once again - sad.

Do you draw comfort from your virtue signaling? Your virtue signaling is an attack on people who actually walk by faith.

You should appreciate those that will walk by faith but instead you condemn them with your virtue signaling.

Shame on you.

 

[Scarlett O.]

As a matter of fact, you should know that I do not recognize you as possessing discernment.

You have publicly professed on the Baptist Board that you have a "Christian" friend that has left his wife of many years to pursue a homosexual relationship with another man. You have asserted that your homosexual friend is a "Christian".

There is no scriptural support for your assertion. There is crystal clear scriptural support for your friend's Depravity.

I KNOW that my friend in living in depravity!!!!! My soul is burdened to the point of being SICK over him and his "husband".

I wish you would find that post. I cannot believe that I would ever say that homosexuality was all fine and good for the Christian.

In fact, I don't believe that I said it or implied it.

 

[Salty]

You are not an authority on what is and isn't tempting God. The Scriptures command to not forsake the assembling, Period.

Her and her husband's stance is not walking by faith. They should surrender the pastorate to a man that will assemble God's people.

As a matter of fact, you should know that I do not recognize you as possessing discernment.

You have publicly professed on the Baptist Board that you have a "Christian" friend that has left his wife of many years to pursue a homosexual relationship with another man. You have asserted that your homosexual friend is a "Christian".

There is no scriptural support for your assertion. There is crystal clear scriptural support for your friend's Depravity.

Does that mean you do you not believe in Eternal security?

So either that friend was never truly born again -

or
if he was -then when he went into the h0m0sex@l life style -he then lost his salvation.
So which is it?


and I agree with Ann: "Is it selfish to want to be safe? "

If the couple want to leave - then so be it.

Xisdraw said: "I don't have the authority to close God's church."
and he is absolutely correct ! Only the church members can close the church
(and with so many small churches these days - maybe more should close and merger with others -
but thats another discussion)

As far as being safe: Suppose a couple of people brought in some snakes for worship -
you have to admit - they DO have some Scripture to support their belief.
But, I would be like Wendy Bagwell
Bagwell "Where is your back door"
church member - "We aint got one"
Bagwell "Where do you want one"!

I would not feel safe around those snakes
even if you say I have a lack of faith
then I suppose, I have a lack of faith.

If a family of 8 kids came to church - all who have lice
What would you do?

If a couple came in and they boasted they both currently have the Chinese virus -
what would you do?

If for some reason - that all the utilities were not working - ie electric, water, heat ect
would you continue to have services?

Yes, I want to feel relative safe in church

and that is the reason, we did cancel in person church services for several weeks last year.

and one last thing - I am thinking about asking in our church who has had the CV shots!

 

[AVL1984]

We have the situation in my church that there are mainly older members who feel that we must wear masks and do social distancing, so that happens in 10 AM service, while 11:30 one is mask free zone! We get about 4X more in second service!

We have people who wear masks, but a majority don't. Our church hasn't really made such a big deal about it, because those who wear the masks are people who have underlying conditions or have family members who have had cancer in the past or have had some other serious condition. I myself have several underlying conditions, but I don't wear a mask, and won't unless I go into a hospital or Dr.'s office.