Is this a heresy?

[Aaron]

Nice sidestep. :thumbsup: But there are Scriptures.

(And by the way, in my local church tongues is a heresy.)

Yes, that's right, and it's the duty of each church to follow them. But you and I will differ on them. I believe if we call a doctrine heresy, we need to believe that it is universally heretical, that it divides one from Christianity, and not, as DHK has asserted, that people on earth are divided over it.

That's all I mean.

 

[John of Japan]

Yes, that's right, and it's the duty of each church to follow them. But you and I will differ on them. I believe if we call a doctrine heresy, we need to believe that it is universally heretical, that it divides one from Christianity, and not, as DHK has asserted, that people on earth are divided over it.

That's all I mean.

You may be right, but you need Scriptures. Your Scriptures for this point are? I don't recall any Biblical use of the word that will back you up.

 

[DHK]

Yes, that's right, and it's the duty of each church to follow them. But you and I will differ on them. I believe if we call a doctrine heresy, we need to believe that it is universally heretical, that it divides one from Christianity, and not, as DHK has asserted, that people on earth are divided over it.

That's all I mean.

You will have a hard time defining "universally heretical," or what doctrines are "universally accepted" by the "body of Christ" if that is what you call it, the family of God, the universal church, whatever term you use. All Christians do not believe the same. Many Pentecostals are saved. But if tongues are heresy they are saved heretics. Are all members of the COC saved? The COC believes in baptismal regeneration--a serious heresy. So does the RCC. There are many Christians that practice infant baptism. I consider that a doctrinal heresy, something serious enough to divide over.

I don't believe in a universal church. I would never join a local church that believes in those doctrines. Therefore those unorthodox doctrines are not divisive doctrines for me. They would not be welcome in our church for those that believe in them would never get into our church in the first place. They must agree with our statement of faith. We interview them beforehand. Heresies, by definition, are those that divide the local church.

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
1 Corinthians 11:19 For there also must be factions among you, that those who are approved may be revealed among you. (WEB)

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Galatians 5:20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects, (Young's)

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1 And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction, (Young's)

The Bible defines heresies as sects, factions or division.

 

[Aaron]

You may be right, but you need Scriptures. Your Scriptures for this point are? I don't recall any Biblical use of the word that will back you up.

I've cited it several times:

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

It is not mere error, it is subversive, sinful and condemning error. He is to be regarded as a heathen and a publican.

 

[Tom Butler]

This is a good discussion. Permit me to insert a funny story to illustrate how some churches have a falling out.

A traveler was going through a town and noticed two identical Baptist churches right across the street from each other--identical architecture, the works.

He found a cafe for lunch, and asked the owner about it.

"Well, the church on this side of the street believes Pharoah's daughter found Moses in the bulrushes. The church on the other side believes that's what SHE says."

 

[Tom Butler]

Then there's a Primitive Baptist church which split over foot-washing.

One church held that the same person who washed should also dry.
The other church held that a different person should get to dry.

 

[John of Japan]

I've cited it several times:

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

It is not mere error, it is subversive, sinful and condemning error. He is to be regarded as a heathen and a publican.

The point I was asking for Scripture on was that you said,

"I believe if we call a doctrine heresy, we need to believe that it is universally heretical, that it divides one from Christianity."

This is not an exegesis of Titus 3:10, which was written to the pastor of a local church. So I still don't see any Scripture for your point. Also, the other verses in question were written specifically to local churches (Rom. 16:17, 1 Cor. 11:19, Gal. 5:20). Even 2 Peter 2:1 may be said to be local church oriented, since it is about false prophets and teachers, which operate in local churches. (I don't think Peter was discussing TV preachers. :saint

 

[Aaron]

Maybe I don't see what your stand is.

Your words:

I also apply the term "heresy" in a strict way. My point is not that a heresy is simply a teaching I believe to be false, it is a teaching that divides the local church. At the moment it divides it becomes a heresy.
​

For you heresy is a false teaching that divides a church. When you say a teaching that divides, do you mean a teaching over which men simply divide, or an error over which there are grounds to divide, IOW, to put the confessor thereof out of the church?

 

[Yeshua1]

You will have a hard time defining "universally heretical," or what doctrines are "universally accepted" by the "body of Christ" if that is what you call it, the family of God, the universal church, whatever term you use. All Christians do not believe the same. Many Pentecostals are saved. But if tongues are heresy they are saved heretics. Are all members of the COC saved? The COC believes in baptismal regeneration--a serious heresy. So does the RCC. There are many Christians that practice infant baptism. I consider that a doctrinal heresy, something serious enough to divide over.

I don't believe in a universal church. I would never join a local church that believes in those doctrines. Therefore those unorthodox doctrines are not divisive doctrines for me. They would not be welcome in our church for those that believe in them would never get into our church in the first place. They must agree with our statement of faith. We interview them beforehand. Heresies, by definition, are those that divide the local church.

1 Corinthians 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
1 Corinthians 11:19 For there also must be factions among you, that those who are approved may be revealed among you. (WEB)

Galatians 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Galatians 5:20 idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strifes, emulations, wraths, rivalries, dissensions, sects, (Young's)

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1 And there did come also false prophets among the people, as also among you there shall be false teachers, who shall bring in besides destructive sects, and the Master who bought them denying, bringing to themselves quick destruction, (Young's)

The Bible defines heresies as sects, factions or division.

I believe that it is a misunderstanding/interpretation of the scriptures, and misunderstanding of the operation of the Holy Spirit among the Body of Christ today, but would see this as being an area where we can agree to disagree, much as cal/Arms can do so...

The danger is in the fully heretical groups/teachers/teachings epoused by those like hagin/Copeland/Hinn etc, as they hold to wealth/health/propserity gained from heed deluding and demonic beings!

Would say that an Assemblies of God pastor could teach in our church aslong as stayed to main doctrines of the faith, while my Baptist pastor could teach in theirs!

have to agree to not try to "convice" other side to change, just agree to disagree... And keep having good discussions on why holding to certain views...

 

[DHK]

have to agree to not try to "convice" other side to change, just agree to disagree... And keep having good discussions on why holding to certain views...

A pastor of a nearby church invited a former pastor-friend to preach in his church. He was just passing through and he thought he would give him the opportunity. To our disdain he preached from Psalm 12 and how the KJV is the only inspired Word of God. We told him of our beliefs on the matter, and the pastor told him to never do that again. He was given another opportunity about a year later. What do you know, but he did the same thing all over again, but from a different passage. He will never preach in that pulpit again. As far as the pastor is concerned he preaches heresy. The pastor has to re-educate any new Christians that are there, straighten out confusion, and undo damage. What did he do? He caused division. That is what a heretic is, according to the Bible, everytime the word is used.

 

[John of Japan]

Maybe I don't see what your stand is.

Your words:

I also apply the term "heresy" in a strict way. My point is not that a heresy is simply a teaching I believe to be false, it is a teaching that divides the local church. At the moment it divides it becomes a heresy.
​

For you heresy is a false teaching that divides a church. When you say a teaching that divides, do you mean a teaching over which men simply divide, or an error over which there are grounds to divide, IOW, to put the confessor thereof out of the church?

I think I've been clear. If someone comes into my church and teaches a false doctrine, it will divide the church, cause a church split. It will harm believers. This makes the heretic a wolf, as it shows in the excellent description of heresy by Paul in Acts 20:

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

 

[Aaron]

You may be clear, but you aren't being precise. Let me ask the question another way. Do you regard Presbyterians as heretics?

 

[John of Japan]

You may be clear, but you aren't being precise. Let me ask the question another way. Do you regard Presbyterians as heretics?

Of course not, not unless they come into my church and cause trouble by teaching doctrines that are against our statement of faith. What in the world have I said to make you think I would consider Presbyterians heretics?

 

[Aaron]

The Presbyterians hold doctrines you consider false. I'm trying to understand what degree of falsehood constitutes a heresy, and what makes one a heretic in your estimation.

A Baptist becomes good friends with a Presbyterian. In the course of their fellowship, he becomes convinced the Presbyterians have it right. In the course of his fellowship with his Baptist friends, some of their minds have been changed too.

Are they now heretics?

 

[John of Japan]

The Presbyterians hold doctrines you consider false. I'm trying to understand what degree of falsehood constitutes a heresy, and what makes one a heretic in your estimation.

A Baptist becomes good friends with a Presbyterian. In the course of their fellowship, he becomes convinced the Presbyterians have it right. In the course of his fellowship with his Baptist friends, some of their minds have been changed too.

Are they now heretics?

No, of course not.

 

[Aaron]

The same Baptist and his Baptist friends decide to leave the church and join the Presbyterians.

They've accepted a false teaching, that of pedobaptism, and left the church.

Are they now heretics?

 

[12strings]

The same Baptist and his Baptist friends decide to leave the church and join the Presbyterians.

They've accepted a false teaching, that of pedobaptism, and left the church.

Are they now heretics?

I think John will say agian "NO", unless they remain in the baptist church and start pushing paedobaptism. He is using heresy to describe teaching a doctrine that divides a church.

I asked him if a non-tongues speaker taught against it in a tongues speaking church, would that be heresy...but he didn't really answer the question...just said he would never do that.

 

[kyredneck]

"IMO, from the standpoint of evangelicals who believe that it is the gospel that imparts life and immortality, heresy becomes any corruption of that formula or equation that causes it to lose it's 'salvific' qualities. Thus the gravity that is usually assigned to the word 'heresy'."
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1882001&postcount=40

IOW, most reserve the word 'heresy' to mean any teaching that interferes with this: http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1842510&postcount=104

 

[Aaron]

I think John will say agian "NO", unless they remain in the baptist church and start pushing paedobaptism. He is using heresy to describe teaching a doctrine that divides a church.

I asked him if a non-tongues speaker taught against it in a tongues speaking church, would that be heresy...but he didn't really answer the question...just said he would never do that.

Let John answer. I'm not trying to trap him or argue with him. I'm simply wanting to know what he means.

"A false teaching that divides the local church." That statement has a lot of ambiguity, and your clarification has no less.

 

[John of Japan]

I think John will say agian "NO", unless they remain in the baptist church and start pushing paedobaptism. He is using heresy to describe teaching a doctrine that divides a church.

This is correct. In a strict exegesis of the passages with the Greek words in them, we find the word for heresy is polysemous--having more than one meaning. It is used in the Gospels and Acts for "sect" as in "sect of the Pharisees," but it is used in the epistles for division causing specifically in the local church, since all references are in letters to local churches except the one in Peter, which must be exegeted as being about the local church.

I asked him if a non-tongues speaker taught against it in a tongues speaking church, would that be heresy...but he didn't really answer the question...just said he would never do that.

Again, according to a strict exegesis of the Biblical passages, if you consider a Pentecostal church to be a church in the Bible sense (and I do as long as they are old line Pentecostal), then teaching tongues by a Pentecostal in a Pentecostal church is not heresy.

Concerning a Presbyterian stealing my sheep while not coming to my church, I view that as reprehensible, and would do all I could to stop it, but it is not heresy in the technical sense. (And before anyone uses the bogus argument, "They're not your sheep, they're Christ's," they are mine in the sense of have had them entrusted to me by the chief shepherd, a perfectly acceptable usage in English.)

That said, the Baptist distinctive of the priesthood of the believer means that the individual has a right to change his doctrine, while the distinctive of the autonomy of the local church means he doesn't have a right to teach it in my church.