"The devil made me do it"-Flip Wilson :laugh:
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Is This Biblical?
- Thread starter Blessed lady
- Start date
With this I agree 100%.
Scripture trumps "Church History" when it comes to theology...not the other way around.
I disagree power and authority are 2 different things relating to how the Apostles could exercise their sign gifts.
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1411&version=kjv
http://www.biblestudytools.com/Lexicons/Greek/grk.cgi?number=1849&version=kjv
Having authority does not imply Dunamis. :smilewinkgrin:
Darren
Did anyone actually watch the video? This whole casting out business went on for 10 minutes and at the end the boy vomited up his homosexual demon. Will anyone like to comment on whether or not they agree/disagree with Glory Ministries in how they go about casting out a specifically named demon? To me the whole service is out of order, even before the demon manifested the boy was lying on their altar unconscious with a white blanket over him, which seems to me he was "slain in the spirit" beforehand.
Darren
Darren
Agreed, however you haven't given any proof that believers 'can't' cast out demons and that they aren't given such authority. Church history FROM the time of the apostles, to their students, and their students students, all of which maintained this point has declared this as a biblical stance. It was an unbroken line from the apostles for 300 years.
the fact it is maintained in early church history FROM the apostles own students and their students students gives both weight and credibility to argument. Agreed that this alone establishes it as fact, only weight and credibility. also the fact that they 'did' cast out demons, lends even more weight to the argument as being valid. Or are we to assume the apostles told their students/disciples that only 'they' could cast out demons and the students of the disciples choose to believe otherwise, but/and were still able to, like the apostles, to cast out demons?
Last edited by a moderator:
I disagree with the entire understanding and actions of those in the video.
You just proved my very point. What you give does exactly what I stated. It tells you a 'basic' meaning then gives you 5 various ways in which the word is used. First, please read Thayers notations on the passage and you will see that he does not equte δύναμις dynamis (which is pronouced - dü'-nä-mēs ) to being a power from an intrinsic state. That is only one of the various meanings the word has. Thayer and Strong's on this passage both state in thier notation the word here simply refers to an action of force. The BAGD gives much more light on the word in question and also states this word 'power' is in essense the same - the action of/or force - which nothing more than 'ability'.
The passage of Lk.1:9 is Jesus stating I have given you the means and legal authority to do what I have am able to do. The dynamis in Christ is intrinsic to him through His very nature - that which we have from the beginning or birth.
Please study out what intrinsic as well as what 'by nature' means and then look at the notations from the men in which you are quoting so as to know 'which' of the 5 meanings (or other various meanings of other words) they are specifically refering to brother.
This is not a berration against you or putting you down. In fact, I an encouraged that you have looked at least this much into it
but this is more an encourgement to look deeper and study more than just the surface stuff given by Strongs and Thayer (both good but also very basic in what they give) when looking at the Greek.And if you look at 'authority' you will see that this 'power' is in fact derived from 'authority' (His authority) imparted to them as representitives of Him. :smilewinkgrin:
PS> If you don't have access to their notations, specifically Thayers.. go to blueletterbible.com and under their Condcordenance section (the 'c' square to the left of each passage) click on it. Then click on the hyperlink to the word in question. It will give the rendering from Thayer and at the bottom it gives you Thayers notations on each passage in which it is used and the how that words variation is understood in that passage. This will let you understand which varition goes to which passage in Thayers understanding.
Last edited by a moderator:
The passage of Lk.1:9 is Jesus stating I have given you the means and legal authority to do what I have am able to do. The dynamis in Christ is intrinsic to him through His very nature - that which we have from the beginning or birth.
Please study out what intrinsic as well as what 'by nature' means and then look at the notations from the men in which you are quoting so as to know 'which' of the 5 meanings (or other various meanings of other words) they are specifically refering to brother.
This is not a berration against you or putting you down. In fact, I an encouraged that you have looked at least this much into it
And if you look at 'authority' you will see that this 'power' is in fact derived from 'authority' (His authority) imparted to them as representitives of Him. :smilewinkgrin:
PS> If you don't have access to their notations, specifically Thayers.. go to blueletterbible.com and under their Condcordenance section (the 'c' square to the left of each passage) click on it. Then click on the hyperlink to the word in question. It will give the rendering from Thayer and at the bottom it gives you Thayers notations on each passage in which it is used and the how that words variation is understood in that passage. This will let you understand which varition goes to which passage in Thayers understanding.
Allen, as far as I'm concerned I have the right defination of power. I know what you are trying to do in linking the word authority from the Apostles to ALL believers, I personally don't find that it fits. The Apostles were Apostles by commission, which included the sign gifts as part of their function and minstry. There is no reason for me to go any further into it as if playing with the text is going to change anything. I can see why you want to make that particular interpretation I just don't think I see any reason to agree with it.
Darren
I'm not linking anything, I'm only talking about the way the word in used historically and grammatically and in context brother. Look into any Greek Lexicon you wish, you will find it exactly as I have stated. It isn't 'my' rendering it is the collective understanding of almost every single Greek scholar past and present.
Secondly and once again - these are not sign 'gifts' as in spiritual gifts assigned to them. The context does not give any such indication because none of them are listed amoungst the any of the gift listing in the NT. Even if one desires to see 'new tongues' as the giving of human languages that is the only 'sign gift' mentioned of all the others. These are not and can not be said to be sign 'gifts' or spiritual gifts of the Holy Spirit for the benifit all the CHurch body (1 Cor 12:7) and to be used in the edification and growth of said body. That makes absolutely no sense in light of what these 'signs' are. The are just that 'signs' not sign 'gifts'.
Last edited by a moderator:
I disagree. Some are sign gifts of the Apostles, some are gifts of the Holy Spirit and some are simply God's protection over His people.
"Shall they"... "They shall" - something that is being demonstrated by a believer as a sign rather than just a "sign" accompanying believers. I qualify these signs being under certain conditions and not automatic for ALL believers to do. Cast out demons in My name to me is a reference to the sign gifts of an demonstrated by an Apostle.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
Darren
I'm still waiting from you to show me where in SCRIPTURE SHOWS converts casting out demons.
Back in the late 70's-early 80's the "spiritual warfare" theme become very common in the evangelical churches.
I could see some good in it, as it did make Christians aware that they were "preyed" upon by an unseen evil entity that didn't want them to glorify God in their lives.
BUT!....It became in-vogue for larger churches to set up spiritual warfare teams of men and women who basically performed what they believed to be exorcisms withing their local congregation.
When we had lay-people with little or no knowledge of mental illness, such as manic depression, Schizophrenia, nervous depression, thyroid im-balance caused depression and anxiety, and other endocrine imbalances sometimes caused by stress, or autoimmune disorder being mis-diagnosed as demonic oppression, things were really out of hand.
The amount of demonic or satanic possession is very minimal, compared to the many disorders that the average lay-person in the warfare ministry perceived as oppression or possession.
Sadly, many church members who really put their trust in these church sanctioned teams were put through the most humiliating, and embarrassing trials.
People with bonafide mental/emotiona disorders were coerced into digging up the most sacred and personal sins of their past, and connecting them to satanic holds in their lives, only to go away, humiliated and crushed in spirit.
There is a need for bonafide church, or scriptural exorcism, but it is a rare condition of the soul.
At the most Satan and his demonic principalities, oppress the Christian via his/her unredeemed flesh condition, and do have access to our mind, and emotions.
Many folks who have been saved and came out of very occultic type backgrounds often struggle much in the beginning of the walk with God, and often a good Christian counselor/mentor can help them to get their feet on solid ground.
We should put on the Spiritual armour of God every day. We should pray and ask God to guard our thoughts and decisions, and protect us from the fiery darts/missles of the enemy that can inflict some real setbacks on us when we think we are least vunerable. Often Satan does work overtime right on the heals of our greatest victories in Christ. It only makes sense, that the more effective our lives our in glorifying God, the more that the dark/fallen realm will want to get active.
Satan doesn't have to work on couch potatoe Christans, as they are taking care of his job of deluding and diluting the Christians testimony to the world anyway.
Whenever I've experienced some personal victory in my life that has bolstered my faith in God, I have made a point of getting on my knees and puting on the Armour, and keeping a watchful eye out.
Pride often creeps into our lives when we are on a mountain-top roll, as we start to think we're pretty good children of God. Look out! God is not going to allow that roll to continue. He'll allow Satan and the world chop us off at the knees, and eat humble pie for awhile.
ln summation: Much of the Spiritual Warfare that goes on in churches IMO, is unnecessary, and even giving a type of creedence to Satan and his minions. In fact the more that we Christians dwell in that area, the likelihood of our getting into some bad mental, and emotional gymnastic is probably.
Leave it to those who are bonfide-gifted by God to ascertain, or know who is or who isn't under possession or oppression.
Also remember that Satan and his princes can pluck you out of Jesus' sheepfold, no matter what.
I could see some good in it, as it did make Christians aware that they were "preyed" upon by an unseen evil entity that didn't want them to glorify God in their lives.
BUT!....It became in-vogue for larger churches to set up spiritual warfare teams of men and women who basically performed what they believed to be exorcisms withing their local congregation.
When we had lay-people with little or no knowledge of mental illness, such as manic depression, Schizophrenia, nervous depression, thyroid im-balance caused depression and anxiety, and other endocrine imbalances sometimes caused by stress, or autoimmune disorder being mis-diagnosed as demonic oppression, things were really out of hand.
The amount of demonic or satanic possession is very minimal, compared to the many disorders that the average lay-person in the warfare ministry perceived as oppression or possession.
Sadly, many church members who really put their trust in these church sanctioned teams were put through the most humiliating, and embarrassing trials.
People with bonafide mental/emotiona disorders were coerced into digging up the most sacred and personal sins of their past, and connecting them to satanic holds in their lives, only to go away, humiliated and crushed in spirit.
There is a need for bonafide church, or scriptural exorcism, but it is a rare condition of the soul.
At the most Satan and his demonic principalities, oppress the Christian via his/her unredeemed flesh condition, and do have access to our mind, and emotions.
Many folks who have been saved and came out of very occultic type backgrounds often struggle much in the beginning of the walk with God, and often a good Christian counselor/mentor can help them to get their feet on solid ground.
We should put on the Spiritual armour of God every day. We should pray and ask God to guard our thoughts and decisions, and protect us from the fiery darts/missles of the enemy that can inflict some real setbacks on us when we think we are least vunerable. Often Satan does work overtime right on the heals of our greatest victories in Christ. It only makes sense, that the more effective our lives our in glorifying God, the more that the dark/fallen realm will want to get active.
Satan doesn't have to work on couch potatoe Christans, as they are taking care of his job of deluding and diluting the Christians testimony to the world anyway.
Whenever I've experienced some personal victory in my life that has bolstered my faith in God, I have made a point of getting on my knees and puting on the Armour, and keeping a watchful eye out.
Pride often creeps into our lives when we are on a mountain-top roll, as we start to think we're pretty good children of God. Look out! God is not going to allow that roll to continue. He'll allow Satan and the world chop us off at the knees, and eat humble pie for awhile.
ln summation: Much of the Spiritual Warfare that goes on in churches IMO, is unnecessary, and even giving a type of creedence to Satan and his minions. In fact the more that we Christians dwell in that area, the likelihood of our getting into some bad mental, and emotional gymnastic is probably.
Leave it to those who are bonfide-gifted by God to ascertain, or know who is or who isn't under possession or oppression.
Also remember that Satan and his princes can pluck you out of Jesus' sheepfold, no matter what.