Is this biblical

[agedman]

I am in agreement with you. :thumbs: The statement "all things happen for a reason are not biblical nor can they be backed up with scripture. That statement is a worldly statement coming from confusion, not faith.

I disagree.

Reason is behind even accidents.

It is a simple matter of cause and effect.

One cannot have the effect without the cause.

Therefore, even removing the "God" factor, the statement ("all things happen for a reason") is rational and sound.

Because God is complete in knowledge, wisdom, understanding and comprehension, and because He "knows our going out and coming in," and He knows our thoughts before we even think them, it is extrapolated that NOTHING has, can or will happen without God both knowing and approving.

That includes Satan's fall and Adam sinning. For the Scripture states that before the foundations of the world were even spoken into place - that is before creation - Christ already died to save.

Does it mean that God caused Satan to fall and man to sin? Nope.

When God created, He place "spheres of influence" over areas and delegated authorities and principalities. When the authorities abuse their office there are consequences. We read all about such workings throughout the Scriptures.

It is a matter of "Cause and Effect" and God has perfect understanding, knowledge, and control over it all - for He is The Sovereign.

 

[gb93433]

Reason is behind even accidents.

It is a simple matter of cause and effect.

One cannot have the effect without the cause.

Therefore, even removing the "God" factor, the statement ("all things happen for a reason") is rational and sound.

while it may seem rational it is not sound. It limits God's expression. How expression is beyond our ability to comprehend at times.

 

[agedman]

while it may seem rational it is not sound. It limits God's expression. How expression is beyond our ability to comprehend at times.

Please illustrate how what I said "limits God's expression."

Perhaps I didn't express the Sovereignty of God over all matters as completely as I intended.

I agree that our limited comprehension of even Scripture truth is a hindrance to us but not to God.

Nothing hinders or limits God.

 

[freeatlast]

I disagree.

Reason is behind even accidents.

It is a simple matter of cause and effect.

One cannot have the effect without the cause.

Therefore, even removing the "God" factor, the statement ("all things happen for a reason") is rational and sound.

Because God is complete in knowledge, wisdom, understanding and comprehension, and because He "knows our going out and coming in," and He knows our thoughts before we even think them, it is extrapolated that NOTHING has, can or will happen without God both knowing and approving.

That includes Satan's fall and Adam sinning. For the Scripture states that before the foundations of the world were even spoken into place - that is before creation - Christ already died to save.

Does it mean that God caused Satan to fall and man to sin? Nope.

When God created, He place "spheres of influence" over areas and delegated authorities and principalities. When the authorities abuse their office there are consequences. We read all about such workings throughout the Scriptures.

It is a matter of "Cause and Effect" and God has perfect understanding, knowledge, and control over it all - for He is The Sovereign.

I did not ask that. Your reply is how or what causes all things happen not is there a reason for them to happen so as to fulfill something after.

 

[gb93433]

Please illustrate how what I said "limits God's expression."

Our inability to comprehend and always make God a rationalistic being is to agree with the rationalists and make God into something he is not. He is beyond rationalism, understanding and comprehension. He is infinite and rationalism is finite. Words cannot do justice to who God is and His infinite magnitude.

I agree that our limited comprehension of even Scripture truth is a hindrance to us but not to God.

That is to say God is always active. Many times God is passive.

Nothing hinders or limits God.

I would not say that is an excuse for us to be stupid and not use wisdom when we talk with others. I would ask the question that when we lack wisdom is that limiting God through us?

 

[saturneptune]

Who can understand the mind of God? For example, many people on this board have presumed to put God in a box by debating Calvinism vs free will, when the truth of the two is probably some form we do not understand.

God directs things to happen as He wills, and the reason is to accomplish His will. Nations rise and nations fall. The entire purpose of the Old Testement is to prepare for the coming of Jesus Christ. That was the reason for all the events that He directed in the Old Testement. Now, whether that means God going into the detail of whether, for example, what Moses had for breakfast before he first met with Phaorah being ordained, not so sure about that aspect, as would it have made any difference?

One thing I do know is that God is in control, and He uses whatever He chooses to see that His plan is carried out to the letter.

 

[agedman]

Our inability to comprehend and always make God a rationalistic being is to agree with the rationalists and make God into something he is not. He is beyond rationalism, understanding and comprehension. He is infinite and rationalism is finite. Words cannot do justice to who God is and His infinite magnitude.

Our inability to comprehend and always make God rational is NOT to make God something that He is not.

God is NEVER irrational. Our ability to use reason or to rationalize a circumstance or even some level of comprehension has no bearing upon God.

We are both in agreement.

That is to say God is always active. Many times God is passive.

I would disagree. God cannot be passive. It is not in the character of God to be passive in the meaning of merely allowing others or something to do whatever and God being unresponsive and uncaring.

Even if the effect of the justice and judgement occur as natural results because a person is rebuked by some cause in a violation of the commandments, does not indicate a benign or passive God.

Mercy does not negate truth, and righteousness does not prevent peace.

In the Revelations, one can read about the last judgement and folks being judged according to the thoughts and deeds of the flesh. If it all is written down in the books, then that verse in itself indicates God is not passive and merely letting whatever occur without notice or care.

I would not say that is an excuse for us to be stupid and not use wisdom when we talk with others. I would ask the question that when we lack wisdom is that limiting God through us?

The Scriptures teach that the Holy Spirit will guide the believer into all truth. (John 16).

If any lack wisdom they are to ask of God. (James 1)

Illustration about tool limitations:

In my toolboxes, I have many tools in which I can choose to use for the purpose I determine, irregardless of what the original intent of the manufacturer's design and purpose. The tools have no statement as to use or abuse, only reaction to the elements in which they are subjected.

We are much the same way. We do (unlike the tool) have some indicators of sentience but by in large only react to the elements in which we are subjected.

We have no right to argue or accuse God for our form or use. (Romans 9:21, Isaiah 64:8)

It is God's choosing and His wisdom.

Because he is BOTH the maker and the user, it is not in the believer to be capable of limiting God in any matter or in any form. Jesus did not weep over Jerusalem because He or God was limited, prevented, or in any way hindered.

Believers have wept for centuries, even cry out to God in heaven from under the altar, but God is not limited, prevented or in anyway hindered.

Deut. 18 has a real neat section on the prophets being selected, their mission and the rebuke of one who doesn't follow through or is presumptuous in regard to the office and mission.

In my opinion, the passage would address the ability of God to raise up (form and tool) a person, provide the wisdom, and demonstrate that God is definitively unlimited and unhindered throughout.

 

[agedman]

Now, whether that means God going into the detail of whether, for example, what Moses had for breakfast before he first met with Phaorah being ordained, not so sure about that aspect, as would it have made any difference?

One thing I do know is that God is in control, and He uses whatever He chooses to see that His plan is carried out to the letter.

I would suggest that God does go into such detail.

Do not the Scriptures teach that we are to bring into submission every thought and intent?

Do not the Scriptures teach that God knows what we are thinking before it even occurs or we become aware enough that we are thinking?

Do not the Scriptures teach that God searches out the heart and the Word is able to separate the soulish and spiritual?

I never knowingly allowed my children to consume what was I considered unhealthy for the mind or the body.

God being all knowing would certainly have intimate knowledge of what folks consume and the body function responses to that consumption.

Without cause there is no effect. One cannot have effect without cause.

There can be no cause in which God is not totally aware and involved - Even breakfast.

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

Bobby, that was not the question.

It directly related to my initial quesiton to you, that would help me then answer your question (I needed clarification, not sure I completley understand what you are asking).

So whether it was the question or not, it was completely relevant to me giving you an answer to your OP. You didn't give me a yes or no, so I made my statement based on your avoidance of a yes or no answer.

I guess a clearer definition of "reason" would help as well. Who's reason? God's? Man's? Is it Biblical or not in what sense?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

How does that statement compare to the following:

1 Cor. 10:13, "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it."

James 1:13-14, "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man: 14 but each man is tempted, when he is drawn away by his own lust, and enticed."

I see 1 Cor. 10:13 saying God won't allow anything in front of us we can't handle, or anything in front of us we can't escape through him.

I see James saying that Man should not blame God for what happens, because man is born into a sinful world...thus the temptations that are put in front of man are mans own doing

 

[Bobby Hamilton]

I updated that a few times to clear my position. Thanks.

 

[freeatlast]

It directly related to my initial quesiton to you, that would help me then answer your question (I needed clarification, not sure I completley understand what you are asking).

So whether it was the question or not, it was completely relevant to me giving you an answer to your OP. You didn't give me a yes or no, so I made my statement based on your avoidance of a yes or no answer.

I guess a clearer definition of "reason" would help as well. Who's reason? God's? Man's? Is it Biblical or not in what sense?

Thanks in advance.

Your question assumes that everything that happens is done by God, and that is how I replied, so again are you suggesting that God causes everything to happen?

 

[freeatlast]

I see 1 Cor. 10:13 saying God won't allow anything in front of us we can't handle, or anything in front of us we can't escape through him.

I see James saying that Man should not blame God for what happens, because man is born into a sinful world...thus the temptations that are put in front of man are mans own doing

So is the OP statement biblical?

 

[saturneptune]

I would suggest that God does go into such detail.

Do not the Scriptures teach that we are to bring into submission every thought and intent?

Do not the Scriptures teach that God knows what we are thinking before it even occurs or we become aware enough that we are thinking?

Do not the Scriptures teach that God searches out the heart and the Word is able to separate the soulish and spiritual?

I never knowingly allowed my children to consume what was I considered unhealthy for the mind or the body.

God being all knowing would certainly have intimate knowledge of what folks consume and the body function responses to that consumption.

Without cause there is no effect. One cannot have effect without cause.

There can be no cause in which God is not totally aware and involved - Even breakfast.

The post was quite clear. Never said He was not aware. Guess what, your breakfast has no eternal purpose. God does not ordain whether you had Lucky Charms or Frosted Flakes.

 

[agedman]

The post was quite clear. Never said He was not aware. Guess what, your breakfast has no eternal purpose.

But my breakfast just might have eternal purpose.

Who is to know if by being "sick of the stomach" might be leaving a testimony to someone in the doctor's office. raying:

Just because God doesn't write down in the Scriptures that Abraham had a full English breakfast on the day he met the three on the way to Sodom and Gomorrah doesn't mean that food was not an important part of Abram's day.

If God had dietary stuff in mind, then that too is important and illustrates that nothing is not important to God.

 

[freeatlast]

But my breakfast just might have eternal purpose.

Who is to know if by being "sick of the stomach" might be leaving a testimony to someone in the doctor's office. raying:

Just because God doesn't write down in the Scriptures that Abraham had a full English breakfast on the day he met the three on the way to Sodom and Gomorrah doesn't mean that food was not an important part of Abram's day.

If God had dietary stuff in mind, then that too is important and illustrates that nothing is not important to God.

And we wonder how cults get started.

 

[saturneptune]

But my breakfast just might have eternal purpose.

Who is to know if by being "sick of the stomach" might be leaving a testimony to someone in the doctor's office. raying:

Just because God doesn't write down in the Scriptures that Abraham had a full English breakfast on the day he met the three on the way to Sodom and Gomorrah doesn't mean that food was not an important part of Abram's day.

If God had dietary stuff in mind, then that too is important and illustrates that nothing is not important to God.

You have lost your ever loving mind. When I watch the Twilight Zone, it take it as entertainment, not reality.

 

[agedman]

You have lost your ever loving mind. When I watch the Twilight Zone, it take it as entertainment, not reality.

Not at all.

A few years ago, I had to go into the doctor and while he and I were visiting we shared the Scriptures with each other.

He expressed thankfulness that we visited that morning, that what we shared was a help to him.

Nothing happens by chance and God is to be thanked even for the food we eat.

 

[agedman]

And we wonder how cults get started.

If I offer thanks for all God provides, don't you think he is aware of what was provided and desires it to be used for His glory? Is that not part of the "blessing" offered before one eats?

I don't see this as a big "cult" like issue.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

So would you agree with a basic preposition that the Lord is sovereign over all things that happen as either he caused/permitted it, but that He is in direct control of the process, the end results, NOT that He wanted each and everything happen as it did?

That is almost precisely how I would word it myself..:thumbs:

But my breakfast just might have eternal purpose.

It might, at least in the circumstance you pose here: but it does not suggest that every breakfast every day is of signifigance.

Not at all.

A few years ago, I had to go into the doctor and while he and I were visiting we shared the Scriptures with each other.

He expressed thankfulness that we visited that morning, that what we shared was a help to him.

Nothing happens by chance and God is to be thanked even for the food we eat.

You demonstrate that at least on one day, one time, what precisely you ate might very well have been a part of God's intent and it had a purpose....the problem is, that this is an argument from analogy, it says nothing about the countless 1,00's of breakfasts I would assume you have had during your life.

Reason is behind even accidents.

That is false by definition. The question is about Purpose....it assumes intelligence, that God has purposes behind all things, an accident cannot have that

It is a simple matter of cause and effect.

It is not...cause and effect is not purpose or reason.

One cannot have the effect without the cause.

True, but not all causes are causes generated by volitional beings.

I would disagree. God cannot be passive. It is not in the character of God to be passive in the meaning of merely allowing others or something to do whatever and God being unresponsive and uncaring.

Passivity does not imply "uncaring" nor even non-responsive, it merely implies a refusal to interfere or to act. God, as a volitional being possessed with a free will, may choose to fail to act in any number of circumstances......Your everyday choice to have Lucky Charms in lieu of Froot Loops might very well indeed be such a circumstance.....unless, of course, you have a divine appointment with the doc that day, and God wants your tummy feeling icky :tongue3: