Is this heresy?

Could be a sign of never being saved to start with.
I guess that means "none".

I don't see angry, failing to visit the sick, mistreating your child etc, in the following.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

I guess Jesus missed the point also.

Jhn 8:21¶Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

 

I got a question and I realize some may not see this passage in the same way I do as I’ve heard it preached on differently, but:

Regarding when the wolves in sheep’s clothing, the false prophets, spoken of in Mathew 7 were saying Lord, Lord, look at all the wonderful works “we” have done in Your Name were told, that “I never knew you”:

The fruit that we will know them by was obviously not good: Now a good tree “cannot” produce evil fruit, period, done. The trees being spoken of do not produce half and half, it is either/or, and we are told “there are none righteous” and “the righteousness of God without the law is manifested” so is not our dependence on being IN the good tree without exception? John 15:5

The sheep in wolves clothing were further told, “ye that work inequity”: Don’t we all fall short and that by being under the law? And are not we told the saved are not under the law? (Romans 3:20-31) If these guys believed, why were they being judged by the law???

I wonder what some would think why these false prophets, which were so sure of themselves while calling attention to “their” wonderful works done in His Name were told, I never knew you? Was it because they hadn’t produced enough fruit, or too much evil fruit? Remember a good tree “cannot” produce evil fruit. Or was it because they were being judged by how well they obeyed the law and they broke one too many? (Romans 3:20-31)

Just what was the problem with these false prophets seemingly they thought they had done such a good job? And what is the significance of us knowing them by their fruit since they seem to have a good record doing these things in His Name; other than we know the final result was not so good? What is the measure of judgment by which it could get us into trouble? What is too much?

(Mat 7:1) Judge not, that ye be not judged.

(Mat 7:2) For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

One more thing is that these men called on the name of the Lord as per 10:13 so why didn’t it happen?

(Rom 10:10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

(Rom 10:11) For the Scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

(Rom 10:12) For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

(Rom 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(Rom 10:14) How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?...

Doesn’t grace mean even though you don’t deserve it? Again just what was these false prophets’ problem? Why weren't they saved then?

 

Bob, let's put that verse in John 8 into context, OK?

"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." he spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."

This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"

But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
John 8:19-24

In other words, it is unbelief which causes a person to die in their sins. Additionally, dying IN their sins is NOT the same as dying BECAUSE of their sins. You can die in the mud, but not because of it. You can die in your bed, but not because of your bed.

Let Bible explain Bible.

What is interesting in the above passage in the Greek, and is not translated correctly into the English, is that Jesus was saying, "If you do not believe I am I AM, you will indeed die in your sins." He was using the name of God, the I AM there by using the double "ego eimi".

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Benjamin, I think the passage in Matthew you are referring to has reference to the doctrines these false teachers preach -- the fruit of these doctrines is either evil or good. It cannot be both in God's judgment.

Those who preach the antibiblical doctrines will find that it did not matter if they did what they did "n Jesus' name" or not; they never had a relationship with Him.

 

Have you ever considered you might be wrong?
What did Jesus say to the most religious people of his day:

Matthew 21:31 Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

And you were saying...............

 

Yes you definitely missed the point. Paul did not give an all inclusive list. He gave some examples, and then he said: "such were some of you," meaning you were these "type" of sinners also. He could have added liars, boastful, disobedient to parents, pride, angry people, and a host of other sins. But I believe the Holy Spirit had him keep the list short on purpose. He could have filled the entire pages of the NT by listing all the possible sins a person could commit. But that wasn't his purpose. Sin prohibitis a person from entering heaven--any sin. They were sinners; they were lost. Their sin kept them from heaven. They needed a Saviour. They found one in Christ. Now they had salvation. They still are not perfect; but at least they can say that they are sinners saved by the grace of God. Thus Paul says:
"Such were some of you.

Your proof-texting of this passage is entirely out of context and proves nothing whatsoever.

 

So Helen;
In Context, you are saying that we can die in our sins and go to Heaven. Is that the point you are making?

 

Do DHK:
Helen condemns me for using a passage out of John and then you use one out of Matt where He was talking to the same people.
I guess it matters who the messenger is unless Helen takes your passage and straightens it out for you of which I doubt for some reason.

 

No, this is not all of them DHK but does include the famous Adultery now doesn't it?

BTW, I asked you if you had any gay people in your church and if they went back to their old life style would you let them remain in your church, being their sin was "covered".

 

How did Rahab the harlot not only make it into heaven, but right into the very lineage of Christ?

 

There is a lot of Harlots that repented and were saved who make it to Heaven.
That does not answer my question, if you found you had a homosexual in your membership and was practicing his old life style, would you let him remain as a member of your church. That is not a hard question to answer. Just say Yes or say No.

 

No such generalized question can be answered with a straight yes or no because every situation is different. Counsel is the first step. How will he respond? I won't go further than that?
Will you allow a practicing liar to remain as a member of your church? What is the difference? Christians have their pet sins. Adultery and homosexuality seem to be yours. In fact there is a website that possibly many of you know about (and I am not going to post the URL), by a so-called "Baptist" church, that has for its sole-existence hate propaganda against homosexuality. Is this right? People have their pet sins, and by that I don't mean pet in the sense of the ones that they like to do, but in the sense of the ones that they like to preach on, speak against, constantly condemn, etc.
Yet in God's eyes all sin is equal. Sin is sin. Sin is a transgression of the law.

Rahab the harlot, by faith, entered into heaven. BTW, it says by faith, not by repentance. That is an interesting fact isn't it?
The fact that Rahab was an harlot totally destroys your 1Cor.6:9-11 argument, that adulterers shall not enter the kingdom of heaven. For Rahab the harlot was an obvious adulterer. Verse 11 of that passage says "such were some of you." Your argument is defeated. You use the passage out of context, therefore don't use it again.

 

So, you have spent all this time posting and defending "sin". One question about condemning a sin and you "white eye".

God said "thou shalt not commit adultery"
You seem to be saying that God said: "Gee, I hope you all don't commit adultery".

I will let the Lord answer it for you.
Romans 1:
27: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29: Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30: Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Oh I forgot, this is "covered", so it can't be remembered against him for God knew He would do this.

 

Grace and Peace be with you all,

I have to say that this is terribly distressing for me. I have three of my most favorite posters each arguing with one another on this one topic... (Helen, Brother Bob and DHK) :tear:

If you would forgive me for a moment as I offer a term John Wesley used as a means of explaining the confusion between his view and that of Calvin.

Prevenient grace is divine grace which precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer.

Both Wesleyan and Calvinist agree that divine grace is the salvific ingredient for our Salvation. It ignites the Free Will so to speak to respond. This position appears to be an intermediary position between semi-palagianism and true Biblical understanding of the role of Free-Will in our Salvation.

Where I believe we might disagree is in the freedom given to man to reject our God-Given Salvation (i.e. a negative response or act of the free-will ignited by prevenient grace). Where an arminian or Wesleyan might articulate this action of free-will, Calvinist might suggest that such grace is either efficacious or not present which would lead one into the concept of limited atonement. Ultimately I've found a great many of our disagreements are semantical. Clearly God knows and has always known but time, as we experience it, is simply not part of God's experience but a product of our experience of our existance in creation.

We should be able to get past this constant debating and move on to something more constructive.

God Bless.

 

1. How did Jesus define adultery in Mat.5, and have you ever committed that sin?
2. Have you ever since you have been saved committed any of the sins listed above:
covetousness,
envy,
deceit,
proud,
boasters,
unmerciful,

Have you never, never committed such sins which are also classified as just as heinous crimes as murder and adultery?
1. The most common sin of a Christian is said to be covetousness. We walk down a street, or in a mall, and say: "I wish I had that, or this, or a "car" or anything like my neighbor's, etc. Man covet's. He does it all the time. It is in his nature. I dare say you do the same thing.

2. Have you ever been envious of someone or something belonging to someone?

3. Have you ever committed the sin of pride? O, please don't say no. I think we know better.

4. Have you had cause to boast about your accomplishments?

5. Have you ever shunned to show mercy--have been unmerciful.

All of these sins are just as bad as adultery. Did you forget about them?

 

Could we stick with the Commandments and if you are guilty of all of those you listed then speak for yourself. I doubt very seriously you understand what it is to be guilty of each of them.
1. To look at a woman and lust is to desire to have that woman and the thoughts of having her. To look at a woman and think she is pretty is not lust. I have looked at many of women and thought they were "ugly" is that "UNLUST"?
I don't think you know what envy is. You think if someone sees something and wants one that is envy. No son, to envy is to be jealous of someone else having something and you envy him and want what he has, such as his wife.

I don't see the rest listed in the ones who can't go to Heaven. We do have and advocate with God for the sins you listed but we also must repent of them and God will see that we do repent so we be not condemned with the world.

Have you ever read where God chastises so you are not condemned with the world. That is His loving Grace taking care of His children, so they are not out committing adultery and gay life style. I don't think you realize this.

I figured with all the knowledge you claim to have you would of given an answer to the homosexual question, but I guess not.

 

You are not fighting me, Bob, but how Christ Himself explained Himself, which is why I put in a more extensive quote. If you do not like what He said, please take it up with Him.

He did not say that they would die in their sins if they kept on sinning.

He said they would die in their sins if they did not believe He was God.

In John 3 He also states that belief in Him is the prerequisite for eternal life.

Listen, I hate adultery at least as much as you do. My ex was unfaithful for most of the 20 years we were married from what he told me when he divorced me. It tore our family apart and caused incredible damage to the children. The betrayal of everything I believed in about him ripped me in half -- it was like open heart surgery without anesthetic.

I've been there, done that, in other words. I watched my sister's marriage get ripped apart due to adultery. When my Dad died, he died knowing my mom (they were still married) had been unfaithful to him for about ten years with a man in our small town.

I've seen it. I've been there. I've experienced the horror of it.

And you know what is just as bad? Gossip.

Gossip murders a person's character; is unfaithful to the trust of friendship; and causes incredible heartaches. Like adultery, it cannot be taken back.

All sin is a horror, in other words. ALL of it. And we WILL die in it without faith and trust in Christ.

We are not perfect after salvation. Far from it. We will all die with sin, confessed and unconfessed, 'under our belts.' That's just the way it is. Whichever sin it is, it is a horror and evil is its child.

It is because of Christ and because of Him alone that we have eternal life. We cannot lose that because Christ IS Christ. We are being transformed by the Holy Spirit, but that is a process, not an instantaneous thing.

Yes, God makes a way out of every temptation, but it takes time to learn to use that way. It takes time to strengthen the character enough to walk more and more firmly after Christ. That is part of maturing spiritually.

We are not born in Christ spiritually mature at the moment of belief. We are babies then and our growth and maturity take time.

We try not to sin. Our changed hearts desperately do not WANT to sin. But we still do. And we get disciplined and formed and worked on by Christ's Holy Spirit until -- someday -- we reach that fullness, that completeness which marks the goal the Holy Spirit had for each of our lives.

Yes, tell people not to sin. But dare not to tell them they go to hell for sinning, for that is denying Christ's atoning death.

 

That may well be true but Scripture never mentions 'repent' in any way concerning Rahab. Try again!

Ed

 

To stick to the Ten Commandments would be hypocritical at this point wouldn't it, since it was you that brought up the Romans passage. So deal with this passage of Scripture, and the sins that it listed. They are all in the same camp--evil and wicked.

And the thoughts of your mind have never gone beyond "she is pretty?"

Perhaps that is not the best definition of envy, but it sure is a good one of covetousness. Are you admitting to coveting? That is one of the "Big Ten!"

First, you are nowhere near to being old enough to have the right to call me "son."
Seondly, It doesn't have to be a wife. If you are defining it as jealous, don't tell me you have never been jealoous?

What an admission this is. Do you mean that if God chastises you, and if you die with unconfessed sin, then for the reason of God's chastisement you can go to heaven?? What kind of theology is that? Well at least it is closer to the mark of being Biblical. But you are still being inconistent.

I did. You just didn't accept it.

 

That is a cope out. Can you die in your sins and go to Heaven? Thats easy to answer.

Which is sin but not the only sin and He said they would die in their sins and where He is they could not come.

Ok, you have experience so you should be able to answer better than others but I guess we all have had some experience with adultery.
Could a "saved" person cause all this heart ache and destruction?
If so, God's people are not too moral.

I agree, lead to murder.

Here is the problem, you fail to make way for God's Grace.

May take us time but God doesn't need to the time to know how to keep us.

Didn't say we don't sin, but did say the Grace of God wasn't a one time thing but continues with us to keep us till death. We also were given His Grace to be righteous, Helen.
It is not denying Christ's toning death if you tell them the truth about sin and there are some sins that God's children just don't do.

 

I got two legs and the Grace of God to help me move on thank you. You seem to be guilty though.

Nope

Never been jealous of someone having something, happy for them.

Its the word of God.

Your answer was a refusal to answer about whether you have homosexuals in your church and what you would do with them if you did.

Oh, BTW. I did make a mistake calling you son. shudder!!!!!