Is this heresy?

1. "God is God and can do or not do whatever he wants."

That should end the discussion, Bob. That is exactly what we have been saying.

2. "I don't believe any such thing as an unpardonable sin exists today." If you depend on what the Bible is saying and let Bible explain Bible, you will find it very much exists today. The unforgivable sin is the sin against the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth, according to Jesus. Jesus, Himself, is THE Truth. In Romans 1 we read that God's anger is being poured out on those who suppress the truth that is available to see in creation itself. Suppression of what is known to be true is, in the long run, the sin against the Holy Spirit and a rejection of Jesus Christ.

Continuation in that rejection therefore removes the person from the availablity of forgiveness, for only God can forgive sin.

The unpardonable sin is that sin which consciously, deliberately, and continuously denies the truth and prefers the lie. And there is no forgiveness available in that direction.

It is exactly what the chief priests did when they said Jesus was in concert with demons. They KNEW better and were consciously, deliberately, and continuously denying that fact. That was just one outworking of the unpardonable sin, but it is still very much 'available' to the unbelieving world today.

 

Helen, number 2 is DHK quote, not mine. ok?

Also, we have been discussing scripture. The final say is always God's.

I am sorry Helen, but that is in no way what has been said, on this thread and the one on Other Denominations.

I been told who would go to Heaven, and not once did anyone say if it be "God's will".

Those who didn't say different, amened the ones who were saying it. They in fact were saying people in the act of adultery were going to Heaven and my Bible teaches me otherwise.

 

Christ didn't exactly say that did he? I just finished explaining that on another thread. Rather than explaining it all over again, I will just copy and paste that portion of my explanation of the sin of the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit here:

I do not believe that any such sin exists, and therefore I do not believe that anyone today is capable of committing it. Therefore the question is moot.

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

What is the context:
Matthew 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

Matthew 12:27-28 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges. But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Jesus had done many miracles. He had just cast a demon out of one who was deaf and dumb in the very presence of the Pharisees, so that all who saw it were amazed. But the Phairsees, out of their own jealousy, accused Christ of casting demons out by the power of Satan rather than by the power of the Holy Spirit. The name they were using, Beelzebub, means "Lord of the flies." They were attributing the works of Jesus to Satan. That was their sin.
Jesus was performing miracles in the flesh, in their presence where they could see them. He said that if the mighty works that were done in Capernaum were done in Sodom, Sodom would have repented long ago. He also said that he could do more works there because of their unbelief. This was a sin committed by the Pharissees that one is not capable of committing today for the simple reason that Christ is not in the flesh today, performing miracles right in our very presence. It was historical. It was said to the Pharisees who at that time attiributed the very miracles that Jesus did to Satan himself. This cannot be repeated again in history. The sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is no longer applicable in our age today.

Rather you have taken Scripture out of context, for the Scripture says no such thing.

I believe I explained this passage a number of times to you already. Remember Rahab the Harlot.
A harlot is an adulterer. Adulterers cannot enter into the Kingdom of God. They cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, as you have posted. But you ignore verse 11. "Such were some of you," he says to the Corinthians (just as Rahab was). Some of the Corinthians had been adulterers and so had been Rahab. So why are you using this as a proof text for your theology.
Furthermore, it is not an exhuastive or inclusive list. It gives some examples. It could also include the sins of pride, self-righteousness, lying, evil thoughts, etc. Those people will not inherit the Kingdom of God either. "But such were some of you."

That is right. It is my quote. God is able to forgive any and all sins. Don't you believe in his omnipotence?

 

You contineously misquote me and I quote the scriptures and you never acknowledge it. I don't expect any different this time either.

Mat 12:31¶Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mat 12:32And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

I have learned you wouldn't know the truth if it hit you smack dab in the face.

This answer is beyond me. I never said God couldn't forgive you. If that were so that God couldn't forgive you I would be a goner. Again, your misquoting to uphold your mixed up theory.

Yes, it is DHK's quote, I don''t want no part of it for He attempts to override God's word.

 

Bob Mat.12:31 is quoted above. I left off vs.32 to condense it. Then I gave the rest of the context. The entire passage has been addressed and explained. Just quoting these two verses again does nothing to add to the conversation. I have already given you a detailed explanation why there is no reason to believe why these Scriptures apply to us today, but only to the Pharisees who were accusing Jesus at that time in history of doing His miracles with the power of Satan rather than the power of the Holy Spirit. Since Jesus is not present with us in the flesh, doing miracles right before us in the flesh, I do not believe that the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is possible.

 

Your answer is directly against God's word. Now we can use the scripture "let God be truth and every man a liar". When you come up against God, it is you lying. You got a lot of help on the other discussion, I was surprised. I will be more surprised if you get support on this one.

but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

 

I have no idea what you are talking about. We interpret Scripture in the context in which it is given, not in an isolated vacuum. I gave you the best possible interpretation of that passage. I don't believe it is possible to commit the sin of blasphemy today. Are you limiting the atonement. Are there sins that Christ did not die for? Is that also a teaching of some? I don't believe that. It goes contrary to Scripture. One must be able to harmonize all of Scripture when interpreting it. You are not doing so good at that.
Is God omnipotent?
Is God able to forgive all sin?
Did God atone for all sin?
Was the blood of Christ sufficient enough to atone for all sin?
Or, are there some sins that Christ's blood was not able to cover?
What are your answers to these questions?

 

You say that blasphemy of the Holy Ghost can be forgiven.

God says it can't.

Let God be truth and every man a liar.

Yes to all your questions allowing for the exception God made. That you are attempting to take away from God.

 

NO, I said it is a sin that is impossible for one to commit today. It must be taken in its historical context.
God doesn't speak to us through burning bushes today either. He spoke to Moses that way, but not to us. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit was something that happened one time in history.

I agree--It couldn't--at that time in history. But it is moot for us today since it is impossible for one to commit the sin today.

Always.

Your answer is no to all of the above if you still believe that there are some sins such as blasphemy against the Holy Spirit cannot be forgiven.

 

God is able to forgive all sins no matter how wicked they are. Let's not limit Him.__________________
DHK

Read the posts DHK.

If this was me, you would call it a lie.

 

Perseverance or Security of the True Believer

I came to this topic late and am not going to read all the posts. Some of the points that I make below may have already been made. I don’t know. However, Scripture clearly teaches that those who are truly saved are saved throughout eternity.


The doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the True Believer’ is one that is cherished by most Baptists. [Freewill Baptists believe that a true believer can loose their salvation.] Only the Baptists and Presbyterians among all denominations hold to a strict doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the Believer’. I am not sure which term most accurately expresses the doctrine. It is certain that Saints will not be able to persevere without the active support of God the Holy Spirit. The statement from the 1677 [or 1689] Baptist Confession of Faith expresses both thoughts as shown in the following excerpt:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourishish them in Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality).

Those whom God has accepted in the Beloved and has effectually called and sanctified by His spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace but they will certainly persevere in that state until the end and be eternally saved.

This is because the gifts and calling of God are without repentance [He will never change His mind.] and therefore He continues to beget [create] and nourish them in faith, repentance, love, joy, hope, and all the graces of the Spirit which lead to immortality.

Many Baptists frequently use the term ‘once saved, always saved’ to express the doctrine of ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or ‘Security of the Believer’. This expression, though true, trivializes the idea that ‘true believers’ or Saints will persevere. One extreme of this viewpoint is that people can walk the aisle, often at a very early age, ‘accept Jesus as Savior’, then for the remainder of their life show no evidence that they are a ‘new creation in Jesus Christ’ [2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10] and yet be a child of God. Such a view is directly contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture [1 John 1:3-6] and may be a consequence of the belief that ‘saving faith’ is mere intellectual assent to the fact of the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Scripture which show that true believers are kept eternally secure by the power of God are as follows:

John 6:35-40, KJV
35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 10:27-30, KJV
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
30 I and [my] Father are one.

Romans 8:28-30, KJV
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

The above passages clearly prove that that believers are kept eternally secure by the power of God. Please note in the passage from Romans those whom God foreknew are already glorified in His sight.

We look now at Scripture that show the true believers responsibility, that is, his perseverance. We look first at a most significant passage from the Old Testament:

Habakkuk 2:4, KJV
4 Behold, his soul [which] is lifted up is not upright in him: but the just shall live by his faith.

The Apostle Paul uses the phrase the just shall live by his faith on three occasions in the New Testament [Romans 1:17; Galatians 3:11; and Hebrews 10:38].

2 Corinthians 5:7, KJV
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight

Matthew 5:16, KJV
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

John 14:23-24, KJV
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Romans 6:1-4, KJV
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Romans 12:1,2, KJV
1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Ephesians 5:2, KJV
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

 

Oldregular, In a nut shell.....I don't think any one disagrees with you except BBob. His claim is that God through Christ saves us and we are kept by His grace unless we commit adultery. That to him is the sin unto death.

 

He said "thou shalt not commit adultery" and there will be no adulterers in Heaven. You believe a person could die in the very act and go to Heaven and sing with the angels, That is no keeping His saying so therefore , you don't love Him, according to what OR posted.

You don't believe what he posted, you believe someone can die in the very act of adultery. If I understand Old regular right, he don't believe that. I think his post is against your belief, not mine. I don't believe someone could die committing a homosexual act and go to Heaven and sing with the angels, but according to your belief, they could. I don't think Old Regular goes along with that but I could be wrong, it wouldn't be first time.

Old Regular can read for himself and see all you make is false statements.

 

You don't believe what he posted, you believe someone can die in the very act of adultery. If I understand Old regular right, he don't believe that. I think his post is against your belief, not mine. I don't believe someone could die committing a homosexual act and go to Heaven and sing with the angels, but according to your belief, they could. I don't think Old Regular goes along with that but I could be wrong, it wouldn't be first time.by Bob

I think we are getting some where. I believe when we come to Christ with a heart of repentance and ask the Lord Jesus to be our Saviour. He does, and the Holy Spirit of God indwells us at that point. We are saved by the Blood of Christ and when we sin that Blood covers our sin. However when we sin we WILL (conviction) ask for forgiveness. THIS IS MY LAST POST. NUFF SAID!

 

It was over until you had to come and repost and say false statements about me, so I had to clear up the mistakes you make.

You say the Holy Spirit indwells us, and at the same time say we can be adulterers, and even die on our neighbors wife and go to Heaven, and sing with the angels.

I would rather preach to people that the Lord said, "thou shalt not commit adultery" and such cannot inherit the Kingdom of God anyday, that to preach the children of God can die on top of their neighbors wife and still go to Heaven and sing with the angels.

 

Grace and Peace OldRegular,

Could you elaborate on this point for me a little? What you appear to be saying is that 'we will know them by their fruit'... which isn't a far stretch from what I believe to be true.

Thank you and God Bless.

 

Grace and Peace Benjamin,

Sorry I couldn't respond sooner but this thread is very fluid and difficult to keep up with.

To clarify I would say 'accepting of the atonement'. In other words, Free-Will and Wesleyans don't believe in 'irresistable' election because we don't agree with the discription used by Calvinists whom hold to 'limited atonement'. Everyone receives God's Grace but not everyone accepts it (i.e. responds positively). One could look at those 'falling from grace' as never having it in the first place but having the delusion of having it... Again I see our differences more semantical then literal.

God Bless.

 

Old Regular Baptists and the Security of the True Believer [Saints]

Following are the ARTICLES OF FAITH of theIndian Bottom Association Of Old Regular Baptists Churches of Jesus Christ. I don’t see anything in there that indicates that God will send any of His Children to hell. Note in particular Articles #6. and #15.


1. We believe in the one true and living God, and not withstanding there are Three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, yet there is but one in substance, equal in power and glory, not to be divided and impossible to change in principle and practice.

2. We believe the Old and New Testament Scriptures are the true written words of God and were given by inspiration of God and there is a sufficiency in them contained for our instruction and they are the only rule of our faith and practice.

3. We believe the doctrine of original sin, and that man sinned since the fall, and that men are by nature the children of wrath.

4. We believe in the impotency or inability of men to recover themselves out of the state they are in; therefore, a Savior is absolutely needed.

5. We believe that sinners are justified in the sight of God only by the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ.

6. We believe in the perseverance of the Saints. That by grace through faith they are born again and adopted into the family of Heaven; that they will become equal heirs with Jesus Christ in glory, and that He will raise them up at the last day.

7. We believe that Baptism and the Lord's Supper are Gospel Ordinances; that true believers are the proper subjects and we admit no other.

8. We believe that the true mode of baptism is by immersion, to baptize a person by their own consent, back foremost in the water, in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

9. We believe that washing of one another's feet is a commandment of Christ, left on record with His disciples, and ought to be practiced by His followers.

10. We believe in the resurrection of the dead and general judgment when all will be judged according to their deeds done in the body.

11. We believe the punishment of the wicked will be everlasting and the joys of the righteous will be eternal after death.

12. We believe that no one has the right to administer the Gospel Ordinances but such as are legally ordained and qualified there unto.

13. We believe it to be the duty of all church members to attend church meetings, and that it is the duty of the church to deal with them for neglecting same.

14. We believe it to be the duty of all church members to contribute to the support of the church by defraying all reasonable expenses of same, never neglecting the poor, according to their several abilities.

15. We believe that any doctrine that goes to encourage or indulge the people in their sins or cause them to settle down on anything short of saving grace in Christ for salvation is erroneous and such doctrine will be rejected by us.

16. None of the above articles shall be construed as to hold with particular election or reprobation as to make God partial directly or indirectly so as to injure children of man.

17. None of the above articles shall be altered without legal notice and free consent.

When God saves us He forgives all our sins, past, present, and future. If that were not true then no one would make it to heaven. The Doctrine that man once saved can lose that salvation makes God a liar since Jesus Christ has told us:

John 6:39,40, 47 KJV
39. And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING, BUT SHOULD RAISE IT UP AGAIN AT THE LAST DAY.
40. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day
47. Verily, verily, I say unto you, HE THAT BELIEVETH ON ME HATH EVERLASTING LIFE.

John 10:28, 29 KJV
28. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

Ephesians 1:10-14 NKJV
10. that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
11. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
13. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE,
14. who is the GUARANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION, to the praise of His glory.

If we are going to exclude adulterers from salvation we can’t stop there since Scripture tells us:

Galatians 5:19-21 KJV
19. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20. Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.

Unless God forgives all the sins [past, present, and future] of His children the above would include all of us. The Apostle John tells us who are excluded from the Heavenly Jerusalem:

Revelation 22:14,15, KJV
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

THERE HAS BEEN ONLY ONE MAN WHO WAS WITHOUT SIN, JESUS CHRIST. SO WE CAN SAY THAT ALL TRUE BELIEVER ARE SINNERS, SAVED FOR ALL ETERNITY ONLY BY THE GRACE OF GOD.

 

Thank you,

I fully concur with your reply and figured you would answer such. I was just double checking your semantics; and frankly if you had answer otherwise you would have burst my bubble. :smilewinkgrin:

 

I doubt very seriously, if you know the Old Indian Bottom after writing such an article. God don't send His children to hell, and I don't know of any one who said so. I am saying His children do not die in the act of adultery ,and if one dies that way, he never had Christ to start with. Also, I don't belong to the Old Indian Bottom, but I doubt if they have a member that believes someone who dies in the act of adultery, was ever a child of God to start with. I do now them quite well and they used to be with us but not now. As a matter of fact, one of their members visited me last Sunday.
Article #6 is the perservance of His Grace to righteous and that sir is what you do not understand.
Article #15 is anyone who would teach such a doctrine that Christ's blood is a "ticket" to sin is the one is advocating false doctrine that "saving Grace is just to receive the blood and then turn loosed to sin".


Your words, tell people what they mean? Don't leave the impression that God's children are never lost, even if they do the things you listed below, unless you do believe that practicing homosexuals are "saved". I think they put God to an open shame.

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?


Galatians 5:19-21 KJV
19. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20. Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that THEY WHICH DO SUCH THINGS SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD.


Revelation 22:14,15, KJV
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

You wrote your answer in a way that you did not defend that His Grace would keep us righteous. I do not believe a true child of God will fall either but I will stand up and say that God's church is not full of practicing adulterers, homosexuals etc, of which you did not.

We had a "so called brother" who shot himself. He had been a preacher for 40 years and his daughter was going to inform on him that he had "raped" her and the whole family. both sons and daughters, so he shot himself. According to your doctrine, he still went to Heaven and is singing with the angels if you hold up for those who posted that God's children continue to commit such acts as adultery and Homosexuality etc.

DHK:
A person who commits adultery may go to heaven. He may even go to heaven while he is in the act of committing adultery. His sins are covered by the blood.

Is this your belief, if so you would do a lot of people a favor by removing the name you carry.