Is this heresy?

For the record Bob I don’t think anybody here is teaching “a ticket to be loosed to sin” and you have been told this is a strawman; so I’m not sure why you feel the need to keep repeating it. Anyone who would teach such a thing would be wrong and should seriously consider Mathew 5:19. As you know we become as a slave to Christ and serve in obedience to our Master with a great love for Him in faith for what He has done for us. A sin such as adultery would eat a believer alive in their heart, never the less, it could happen and we are not to judge another on whether or not one sins. To do so I think could be just as wrong.

 

Of course you won't admit it but that is what your doctrine does if you say adulterers go to Heaven, when Jesus says they don't.

We had a "so called brother" who shot himself. He had been a preacher for 40 years and his daughter was going to inform on him that he had "raped" her and the whole family. both sons and daughters, so he shot himself. According to your doctrine, he still went to Heaven and is singing with the angels if you hold up for those who posted that God's children continue to commit such acts as adultery and Homosexuality etc.

Do you believe the above was a born again Christian?
His children and wife don't.

I believe he is in the hands of a just God who will do right by him but according to the scriptures he didn't leave me any hope for him.

What you fellows are advocating, where you mean to or not, is the children of God can commit such horendeous acts and still be saved. All you are doing is giving people who want to to such things a way out.

Revelation 22:14,15, KJV
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.


And then this:

THERE HAS BEEN ONLY ONE MAN WHO WAS WITHOUT SIN, JESUS CHRIST. SO WE CAN SAY THAT ALL TRUE BELIEVER ARE SINNERS, SAVED FOR ALL ETERNITY ONLY BY THE GRACE OF GOD.
Without explanation at all. I never have or never will claim to be without sin and don’t know anyone who does. I also, do not believe the saved fail to do the following.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

 

benz;
I guess you got it now don't you.

 

You misquote Article #6 which states: We believe in the perseverance of the Saints. That by grace through faith they are born again and adopted into the family of Heaven; that they will become equal heirs with Jesus Christ in glory, and that He will raise them up at the last day.

Article 6 is very clear. Those who are saved will enter into glory just as Romans 8:29,30 states:

Romans 8:29,30, KJV
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

I hope I left the impression that God’s children are never lost because that was my intent. In fact, to state that God’s children can be lost is to make God a liar as I noted in my earlier post.

You seem to be claiming sinless perfection of the Saints. Certainly that should be the goal of all Saints but I know of no one who has attained to that goal. Have you? I have not. If that were true why would the Apostle Paul have written the passage that you quote. If that were true why would the Apostle John have written:

1 John 1:8-10, KJV
8. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Why does the Apostle Paul admonish the Church at Ephesus as follows:

Ephesians 4:28-32, KJV
28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.

The Apostle Paul warns us not to grieve the Holy Spirit by our sin but he also tells us that we are sealed by that same Holy Spirit until the day of redemption, until that day when our bodies are resurrected and made like unto His glorious body [Philippians 3:21].

You also seem to want to make a difference in sin, that is, there are little sins and big sins. God seems to single out idolatry or spiritual adultery in the Old Testament as particularly heinous but all sin is an affront to God. All sin that a Christian commits disturbs the fellowship that exists between God and man as well as grieve the Holy Spirit. Can you show me anywhere in Scripture where the sin that a Saint commits separates that Saint from the fellowship, the love, of God? In fact Scripture tells us that that King David, a man after God’s own heart [Acts 13:22], not only committed adultery but committed murder to cover it up. If God had taken the life of David in the act of adultery with Bathsheba would David have been condemned to hell? That is what you are saying in your initial response.

 

I'm going to jump in here for a minute, and then I will be gone...

I have been watching this very quietly, because I respect brother Bob, and we have had this discussion before, so there is no use rehashing the same ol stuff...

But I have noticed two strawmen, from two different extremes...
Strawman one: License to sin
Strawman two: If you don't beleive in OSAS, you beleive your are working your way to Heaven.

Both of these are extremes at opposite ends...
I think the truth is between the two.

Ok, I just had to get that off my chest...
back to the debate.

 

Bob, I think I may understand you better than you might know, and I see why you would disagree with the system presented by a Calvinist view as you and I are on a similar plane in that light.

As bound said, it is a matter of semantics, and as I agree and do have a desire to improve at expressing myself systematically I find this process of discussion having scriptural food fights to be unproductive other than to review scriptures. Being the problem is that along with the food fights comes a lot of troubling animosity. I value your opinions but the discourse has no directional resolve and is unmanageable for me in this format.

That said, I know a victim to something similar to the abominations you speak of and yet would not judge the perpetrator on his sinful acts. Would I think he was saved doing those kinds of things? Probably not, at the most I would say he could have been a milk sucking, disobedient, falling in sin and would have shown having little hope in the Truth. But, I clearly can not judge on the sin alone.

 

I hope you didn't preach that fellow's funeral. All you could offer is condemnation and no hope, no comfort. God is the judge and not you. You have no right to judge a man's heart especially if he has given testimony to the fact that he was born again. All one can do is hope that his testimony was genuine. Any believer can lapse into depression and/or sin--of any kind. You are not the judge (thankfully). Don't play God. God alone is the judge of this man's soul.

Then leave it in the hands of a holy and just, and merciful God. He does right. You have no Scripture whatsoever to base a judgement on any man's heart.

That is slander. No one here has said that and you know it. We all advocate living a holy life, and preach the same.

What makes you think that this list is exhaustive? Perhaps these are examples of a long list of sins. Perhaps it includes those that are proud and self-righteous as well. God did not have to include every sin in the book in this list. It may but be an example of only some of the sins that will keep one out of heaven. And notice that lying is one of them. If you say that you haven't lied then you have just lied right now, for every man is a liar.

You quote the same verse again. Again I give you the same challenge. Prove that this list is an exclusive list, not including any other sin. Notice the sins of bestiality and homosexuality, or theft, arsonists, inside traders, rapists, pedophiliacs, all are not mentioned. So they can enter heaven according to your theology; Right?

 

I claim no such thing and have never said such. He said my Grace is sufficient to keep thee and I believe Him. This means to keep them from acting out on temptations. I too believe in article 6 to the saving of the soul. I just don't believe every one who says Lord Lord is a child of God.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

So, you believe we have a house full of theives.

Hebrews, chapter 6

"4": For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

"5": And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

"6": If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


Did David have the indwelling Holy Ghost.?
Did David have the mind of Christ?
Did Christ come in David and take up His abode?

I think and most of you do it, to run back to OT where they had cocumbines and God divorced them for disobedience to find your answer to these questions says a lot about the answer.

The doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the True Believer’ is one that is cherished by most Baptists. [Freewill Baptists believe that a true believer can loose their salvation.] Only the Baptists and Presbyterians among all denominations hold to a strict doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the Believer’. I am not sure which term most accurately expresses the doctrine. It is certain that Saints will not be able to persevere without the active support of God the Holy Spirit. The statement from the 1677 [or 1689] Baptist Confession of Faith expresses both thoughts as shown in the following excerpt:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourishish them in Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality).

Many Baptists frequently use the term ‘once saved, always saved’ to express the doctrine of ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or ‘Security of the Believer’. This expression, though true, trivializes the idea that ‘true believers’ or Saints will persevere. One extreme of this viewpoint is that people can walk the aisle, often at a very early age, ‘accept Jesus as Savior’, then for the remainder of their life show no evidence that they are a ‘new creation in Jesus Christ’ [2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 2:10] and yet be a child of God. Such a view is directly contrary to the clear teaching of Scripture [1 John 1:3-6] and may be a consequence of the belief that ‘saving faith’ is mere intellectual assent to the fact of the birth, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

 

Benjamin;
Here is what I said about that person who committed such acts.

I believe he is in the hands of a just God who will do right by him but according to the scriptures he didn't leave me any hope for him.

I do not see where my answer differs from yours.

The truth of the matter is, I have been accused of saying I am perfect, without sin, when in fact I sin all the time but have an advocate with God for those sins and it is not my self righteous but the Grace of God which dwells in me. I am the same as Paul "by the Grace of God I am what I am". Its just that I believe not only are we saved by the Grace of God, but we are kept by the same Grace to righteous. Now that says a lot Benjamin. I can't stand the fact that men of God are advocating that we should call Homosexuals, adulterers, liars, cheats, those who put God to open shame as brothers of the Church. Maybe, I should of said, in our church, instead of saying saved in some cases. I strongly believe that all this Bible study is to an aught, if we don't teach people not to sin and that sin will take them to hell. I am shocked that I have to defend that God's wrath is for those who commit such acts and the children of God escape that wrath by being born again and becoming "Christlike". Homosexuality and adultery are not in no way "Christlike".
I think it is a paper duck to say that I think I am without sin when I have stated over and over that I do sin. OR said sin is sin, but not according to God it is not. If you overtake a brethern in sin, is one type of sin, but he said there is a sin unto death. Well, adultery can be that sin unto death without forgiveness.

Also, there is the sin of Blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. It must be different also.

 

No, I didn't preach his funeral and glad I didn't have to. But you do error when you say what I would of preached. I already posted what I would of said.

I believe he is in the hands of a just God who will do right by him.

 

Chicken! :laugh:

 

Did someone call my name?

 

Here is the fallacy of your arguments:
1. You say that you yourself are not sinless.
2. You say that a person with unconfessed sin cannot enter into heaven, but you qualify that as either one of the Big Ten, or one of the sins listed in the passage you quoted above.
3. You agree with me that the passage referred to in Rev.22 is not an exhaustive list, and many other sins could be included in that list.
4. Therefore you don't know what sins would be included in that list, and it may very well be that you may die with some unconfessed sin (for you are not sinless) and go straight to hell, according to your theology. You have no assurance of salvation.
5. Sinlessness in unattainable on this earth. He who says it is does is a liar and the truth is not in him. (1John 1:8).

Your theology takes away from the sufficiency of the blood of Christ. The blood of Christ atones for all our sins except the last one. That is what you are teaching.

 

I believe we are given the grace to be righteous and not just 'covered'

Shame you only get half of the Grace of God. Keep trying DHK; maybe it will come to you, then again, maybe it won't.

 

And where do you get such theology that God is going to guarantee you the grace not to fall. There is no such promise in the Word. God gives no guarantees against sin. Sin is a choice that one makes. You choose to sin. And if you do, then will you blame it on God, and say: God you failed in giving me enough grace to overcome sin! How ludicrous!

 

The truth of the matter is, I have been accused of saying I am perfect, without sin, when in fact I sin all the time but have an advocate with God for those sins and it is not my self righteous but the Grace of God which dwells in me. I am the same as Paul "by the Grace of God I am what I am". Its just that I believe not only are we saved by the Grace of God, but we are kept by the same Grace to righteous. by Bob

Isn't that what we have all been saying? The problem with you is that you differentiate between BIG sin and little sin. However God says sin is sin! The Blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin. 1Jo 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Now I don't understand what your big hang up is about adultery being the sin unto death. Maybe it is something that happened in your family? Adultery in God's eyes is just as wicked as a proud look or feet that be swift in running to mischief or he that soweth discord among the brethren.
I think you need to turn the computer off and open your Bible and study.

 

2 Corth. 12:
9: And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10: Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Amen to that


Why do you think we have the mind of Christ and made a new creature.

Why you think we have the indwelling Holy Ghost, just a place to live.

Why you think the scriptures say the steps of a good man are ordered of the Lord.

 

First I think you need to grow up.

Second, I think you need to pray that God will lead you out of the thoughts you have of His children.

Third, I don't know anyone who cares what you think.

Fourth, you are so silly not knowing the scriptures that say there is a sin and there is a sin unto death. Too bad, you can't see its saying there is a difference. Also, I just use adultery, I could use something maybe more to your liking such as Homosexuality, I don't know. What do you think, should I change and use another sin, for its a sin unto death also unrepented. You like that sin better?

Oh, BTW, you have never shown any scripture to the contrary. You just babble on. All you know is the color red in big letters. Do you play with crayons also? You are "easy" when it comes to scriptues.

Have a nice day,

 

There are no guarantees in that passage that God is going to keep you from sin. God's grace is sufficient. But we still have a sin nature. There is no promise in the Bible that gives a guarantee that the sin nature will be 100% conquered or eradicated. It will manifest itself, and because of that you will sin. We all do. And according to your theology that sin will send you to Hell. Who knows if that sin may be included in the great list of sins in Revelation 22 that is not all inclusive.

Let this mind be in you which is also in Christ Jesus. The verse doesn't say that "the mind of Christ" is always in you. Paul admonishes us to allow it to be, let it be. strive for it be--make that a goal of your life. It is obvious that when you get angry (any person) that the mind of Christ is not in them. The mind of Christ is not in a person when they think wicked thoughts, when they lie, cheat, when they are proud or puffed up, self-righteous, unkind, unloving, unjust, depressed, etc. No one has "the mind of Christ" 100% of the time because we are not Christ. We are not perfect sinless creatures.
We may be new creatures in Christ but we still carry that old nature with us.

The indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not eradicate the old nature. It does not make one perfect. You admitted that you were not sinless. You sin. You are a sinner. You have no guarantee that when you die that you will die without unconfessed sin.

It also says "there is none good, no not one."
You are not the only one who can quote Scripture and use it for your own means. The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, but the Lord did not make that "good man" a machine. He gave him a will to choose between good and evil. And oftentimes he chooses evil over good, even though he be a Christian. You choose to sin. Every man; every believer chooses to sin. We all are sinners. We sin. And there is no guarantee that you will die with all your sins confessed. One sin is just as bad as another from God's point of view.

 

My emphasis is to strive to be perfect.

You emphasis is we are likely to die in our sin.

I wonder which message the Lord wants us to preach.

Jesus said I will never leave you, I will never forsake you. I will be with you in the sixth trouble and in the seventh I will forsake you not.

My faith is that He will be there when I die and if I am lacking He will supply. If for some reason you want to believe otherwise, then I wish you wouldn't for your sake so you would have more peace in your life. My faith is strong enough to believe my Lord will walk every step to death with me and that, my friend is how I live. I guess you are not my friend, but I will call you one anyway. peace,