Is this heresy?

Brother Bob age and tradition doesn't make right . . . by your thoughts the folks living during the time of Christ should have continued to listen to the "leaders" of the day instead of the "new" Guy.

We are to test ALL things against Scripture. And if it doesn't pass the test then it doesn't matter how many times you've been around the block, Scripture wins

Still like you though Brother Bob :wavey:

 

Like you too but I believe the scripture says to entreat your elders as fathers, so son listen up!!!

 

The phrase, "make it as sure as you can" is works based...
Christ made it sure.

If we depend on ourselves we will go to Hell.

You either trust Christ completly, or you don't.
You cannot say, "I trust in Christ's blood to save me, but I have to make it sure myself"

That is not trusting in Christ's blood...
My Grandmother believed that way. She also believed that she had to keep the 10 commandments. Did she trust Christ... I hope so.
But if she died trying to keep herself saved, she is in Hell tonight.

Works based religion is a dangerous thing instituted from Satan to steal the glory off of Christ, and allow us to boast how self-righteous we are.

We are either self-righteous or Christ-righteous... but you can't be both...
And we know what the Bible says about our righteousness...

I Thank God that I can rest assured that I know when I die I will go to Heaven... not based on what I do or don't do, but based on Christ paying my sin debt, past, present and future.

ALL my sins are paid for. Even the ones I will commit in the future.

 

Like I said I and others are supposed to believe you just because you were born years before us? Sorry that doesn't work. If what you say doesn't pass the Scripture test then it doesn't matter if you are five times my age I am to believe Scripture over an "old" man

 

Salvation is through grace alone, by believing on Jesus Christ. That being said, Christians must be born again to achieve salvation. Christ said Abide in Me and I will abide in you. Becoming a Christian means forsaking the world, picking up our cross, and following Him. Why wasn't the rich young ruler saver? Because he wasn't willing to pay the price. There is a price to be paid for following Jesus. Too many people these days want to make us forget that. They want to make Christianity easy. That isn't what the Bible says. Paul said that no one can follow two masters, Christ and the world. You have to make a choice.

 

First you say over and over and over, no "works" can save you.

Now you say over and over "no works after salvation". I don't believe a word of it, and neither does Scripture teach such a thing.

Matt 25:
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Your Grandma was probably a very good Christian. Sorry Tim but you are part of your Grandma and that will alway be a part of your very lifeline.

When am I going to meet someone on here that teaches for men and women to live "good Christian lives". Go to church, be good to your enemies, visit the sick, lend not your members to the devil to sin but rather to God to do good.

You don't even believe in good works after being saved. yikes!!!!

You call "good works" self righteous? double yikes!!!

I never heard so many stress so much that well all my sins are covered so I can do whatever so don't call me a nonchristian. I got the blood, "give me a drink". baloney.

 

And just think how many say they are saved, but you can still commit adultery, because your sins are covered by the blood and are going to hell.

 

Bob, I am not going to debate you on this one.
I like you, and I do believe that we should live a Christ honoring life...
But that we should do it out of Love and appreciation for what Christ did..
Not out of fear of missing Heaven.

If it takes that fear to keep you straight, then by all means believe what you believe.
I know you are a good man. So when we get to Heaven, we can sit down and have a good laugh at BB.

I just don't understand how we trust Christ completely, but still have to trust ourselves.

Also, Christ Knows me today... He knows me intimately. We have a personal relationship. I know He knows me. I know His voice.

If He would tell me that He has NEVER known me, He would be lying.
And that is not possible.

Being secure does not make me want to sin... on the contrary, I don't want to sin because I am thankful for what HE did. I try not to sin because I love Him.

When I was growing up, I behaved not out of fear, but because I did not want to disappoint my mom and dad... The same principle here.

Have a good debate, but I have stated my opinion... and will now leave.
God bless you all.

 

I like you too Tim;

He told the woman to "go and sin no more". Didn't say, I will see that you don't sin no more.

He said My Grace is sufficient to keep thee, and for your temptations I will make a way for your escape.
I believe Him.

Fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom

Departing from evil is understanding.

If a man don't ever fear God, he will die in his sins.

You say Christ Knows you and I believe that. I also believe His Grace will keep you and by the Grace of God I am what I am. I don't see how a adultereous could say "by the Grace of God I am what I am".

Too much teaching that men can continue in sin while serving God, Destroying the churches. Somebody is going to pay.

 

He didn't promise her that she wouldn't sin again, and there was no guarantee given that she wouldn't sin again.

You believe him, and at the same time misquote the Scripture that you say you believe.

2 Corinthians 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

He said "my grace is sufficient for you." It doesn't say it is sufficient to keep you from temptations. Paul was speaking of a thorn in the flesh. He was speaking of suffering and persecution, not temptation. Why are you taking Scripture out of context to make it mean something that it doesn't, and then turn around and say "I believe it." How ironic!

The second Scripture you referred to up there is 1Cor.10:13. What does it say?

1 Corinthians 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

You said: "for your temptations I will make a way for your escape."
But that is not what that Scripture says. It says "I will make a way to escape that you may be able to bear it," not that you will escape. You have made for yourself a convenient escape hatchet that the Scripture doesn't teach.

Every man will die anyway. The question is: Have you been saved? Are your sins covered with the blood of Christ? It matters not if there is unconfessed sin in your life (as far as your salvation is concerned).

Christ never said that an adultress could not enter heaven.
But he did say: "Except your righteousness exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees you can in no wise enter into the Kingdom of Heaven."

All sin has its consequences, including pride and self-righteousness.

 

Not heresy... just wrong.

Sinless perfection is the unattainable goal of every passionate follower of Jesus Christ. Thankfully, repentance and faith are the marks of the believer. All else is gravy.

 

As others have said, it isn't heresy, but it is terribly misguided.

I appreciate his desire not to sin, but if we were capable of not sinning on our own, then we wouldn't have needed a savior in the first place.

 

from Brother Bob: He told the woman to "go and sin no more". Didn't say, I will see that you don't sin no more.

I think that, first of all, the 'go and sin no more' referred specificially to adulterous relationships, which she had been caught in. Secondly, however, it should be noted that this incident cannot be found in the earliest mss. It may have happened, but, like the end of Mark, it may well be a later insertion.

He said My Grace is sufficient to keep thee, and for your temptations I will make a way for your escape.
I believe Him.

Is anyone arguing this?

Fear of God is the beginning of Wisdom

Just the beginning! We have to ask for the rest!

Departing from evil is understanding.

One can depart from evil and still sin. I know I do! I want no part of evil in my life, but I know I still sin....

If a man don't ever fear God, he will die in his sins.

Actually, Jesus said that if we do not believe He is the I AM, we will die in our sins. That's a little different.

You say Christ Knows you and I believe that. I also believe His Grace will keep you and by the Grace of God I am what I am. I don't see how a adultereous could say "by the Grace of God I am what I am".

You seem to be arguing -- and please correct me if I'm wrong -- that a born again Christian would want to be involved in adultery, or some state of sin. When we are given a new life by God, we are given a new heart, and are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Our wants and goals have changed. No one who is born again in Christ is going to want to live in a state of sin and then claim it is 'by the grace of God.' Living in a state of sin is radically different from sinning sometimes.

Living in a state of sin involves feeling natural (if defensive) about that lifestyle, whatever it happens to involve. But living the new life means that the heart WANTS to follow Christ and sinning is a sometimes thing which we feel horrid about when we realize what we have done. The person who lives in a state of sin is being left alive by the grace of God, hopefully so that that person will turn to Christ and really start to live. The born again believer is changed, and that by the grace of God, so that sin is abhorrent, but still occasionally happens.

Again, I am sure I do not know all the sins I may have or will commit. God is incredibly gracious that way! But when there is something that can be used to correct a bad habit or turn my attention toward something that I was not paying attention to, He is VERY faithful to point out to me my errors! But I am also quite sure that there are a number of them He 'lets slide' in terms of immediate correction or even knowledge of them, because He has my welfare at heart and knows that if this old rose bush that is me got pruned of everything wrong immediately, there would be nothing left! So He goes slow, but sure, and the changes I have seen in myself in the last thirty + years are ample testimony that He knows what He is doing.

Too much teaching that men can continue in sin while serving God, Destroying the churches. Somebody is going to pay.

Is that what you think we have been saying? That is certainly not what I have been trying to say! It is not that we have been given 'permission' to sin once we are born again, but that, like it or not, we will sin. They will get less, and our attitude about them is sure different than before salvation entered our lives, but the fact is that we sin. John's first letter makes a very clear point of that, which I know you know. We no longer live in sin, but we do stumble and fall sometimes. Our perfection is only in Christ, and not in ourselves, and the Holy Spirit is working on us -- but it can be a slow process!

That being said, I agree fully with you regarding the churches and teachings which make light of sin. I think that may be what you are actually getting at? This business of 'OK, now I've said the magic words and gotten baptized and all my sins are forgiven and life is fine and dandy now and I don't have to worry about the past or the future....'

NO! These people claim forgiveness without ever asking for it. They do not apologize to those they have hurt and make no attempt at any reparations when the Holy Spirit -- or any other source -- points out to them the grievous damage they have done in the past. In so doing, they shame the name of Christ and many times actually continue the damage by pretending all is fine and rosy when, in fact, it may well not be -- and because of them.

If that is the kind of thing you are talking about, sir, I am with you all the way, and I think most of us are. And those churches that make this kind of attitude acceptable truly will pay.

On the other hand, again, though, I know that though I sin, and whether or not He shows me all my sins, that I am saved, that He is working on me, and that I don't want to lose a close relationship with Him by NOT repenting and asking forgiveness! But whether or not I have actually come to knowledge of all my sins so as to repent of them, only God knows. I strongly suspect, however, that I have offended Him many more times than He has told me about.

 

1Cr 10:13There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].
DHK; if you don't understand that to scripture as making a way for you to escape your temptation then you just don't have understanding. You want to believe that because he said "that ye may be able to bear it" means he can go ahead and fulfull his temptations and He in no way said that.

2 Corth. 12:

6: For though I would desire to glory, I shall not be a fool; for I will say the truth: but now I forbear, lest any man should think of me above that which he seeth me to be, or that he heareth of me.
7: And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8: For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9: And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

DHK; if you can't read this scripture and see it is saying that Paul was tempted of Satan but the Lord said "My Grace is sufficent for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. If you can't see that the Lord is saying no matter the temptation of the devil, His Grace was stronger. No matter the weakness of Paul who would give in to the temptation, The Grace of the Lord is stronger.

Anyone who says that I am pteaching perfection is just blinded. I am preaching I am saved by Grace and I am kept by Grace. He made me that promise and I believe Him and He has proved it to me for going on 35 years.

Now DHK believes you can die in the act of adultery. If the rest of you believe that then I feel sorry for you for the Lord said the following would not go to Heaven.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1Corth. 6:
18: Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

Now here is what DHK believes and some others if you are among them. I feel for you.

A person who commits adultery may go to heaven. He may even go to heaven while he is in the act of committing adultery. His sins are covered by the blood.

 

Ben;
You say you drink and your dad thinks its a sin. I was wondering what else you do that your dad think is a sin. Also, again I think your dad is probably a good Christian. Please tell me all you do that your dad think is a sin. Maybe it is.

 

Bob, I don't know how the heart of a child of God would allow him or her to become involved in adultery, so I am in absolutely no place to judge there.

But when I think of sinning as a Christian, I personally think of the selfish things I do, or the careless. I don't understand the blatancy of something like adultery. My ex carried on for years with other women while being an active member of the church and claiming to be a Christian. Considering how he lived his life, however, I would be hard pressed to say there was any change of heart with his claimed conversion. I'm not sure what was changed -- certainly his life and heart were not.

So perhaps part of the problem is those who claim the name of Christ falsely?

As far as being involved in a sin at the moment of death, best let the Lord be the judge. He is the one who knows the heart, and we have been explicitely warned not to judge. We can suspect.....but dare not judge.

 

Helen this started this whole thing, maybe you agree with DHK, but I want you and everyone else on this board to know that I don't believe in it for my Bible tells me it can't be true.

DHK:
A person who commits adultery may go to heaven. He may even go to heaven while he is in the act of committing adultery. His sins are covered by the blood.

People who can't go to Heaven.
1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1Corth. 6:
18: Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's

You want to deny the word of God, go for it!

The Lord will be the judge but we are not blind and we can't quote scriptures and lead people down a path thinking they can do such things and still go to Heaven. We would be guilty of leading someone to Hell.

I will amen most of what you said except the below.

If God says it, its true and let every man be a liar.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

 

You are getting kind of nasty, Bob. I hope you know I am not denying the Bible. Please don't imply that I am.