Is this heresy?

Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

I am so glad to be me "defending thou shalt not commit adultery", than to be you and all the rest who side with you, DHK, ED and some women now who say, "you can die in the act of adultery and go to Heaven". That is shoving God's word back in His own face, and making a mockery of His word. God said "thou shalt not commit adultery", all you say " you can die in the very act of adultery and still go to Heaven", in direct conflict with the word of God.

 

Grace and Peace,

The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace. - Romans 8:6 (NIV)

As much as our Lord commanded us to 'be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect' let us not cause too much stumbling for those struggling with sin 'for the Lord is able to make him/her stand'.

Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. - Romans 14:4 (NIV)

God Bless! raying:

 

Not judging anyone, just quoting scripture. Maybe you would like to try the one "thou shalt not commit adultery"? Maybe you would like to answer if you die in the act of adultery are you "saved", according to the word of God?

 

I have given no "Get out of jail free ticket" to anyone, nor have I in any way condoned adultery, and I deny that to be the case. AND I have never made "fun of those who try to live close to God", either, and hope that all Christians do just that. I have made fun of the attitudes that one can tell what is in anyone's heart because of what they think they observe, and that that is the telling point. That is legalism and Pharisaism!

But I have consistently derided the confusion between the free gift of salvation, and the costly discipleship, that should follow. That it should does not automatically mean that it will, else the admonitions for holy living would not be found in Scripture.

I am not a sinner, folks, I am a bona fide holy, sanctified, saint, according to Scripture. 60 times in the NT God calls the believer as one of these three terms. Only one time is any NT believer ever specifically referred to as a 'sinner', and that is in Paul's pronouncement of himself as the chief of sinners.

And as I do fall short, I am a son and a saint who sins each and every day, according to Scripture. To deny this, is to deny Scripture, which I am not interested in. When I sin, I do not stop being a son (that is what chastizement is for, which is different than condemnation, BTW), nor do I cease to be a saint, as one who is in Christ. AND that is the crux of these whole discussions. I have already said before in one of the two threads i have regularly posted on, one is saved one time, and one time only. There is no second salvation, or third salvation, or "any-other-number" salvation as concerns eternal life. But one's 'fellowship' is not the same as one's relationship, which does not change. Scripture tells of those who's 'lifestyle' is so repugnant to God that they were taken 'prematurely' to 'sleep'. It never implies, even, that any of them 'lost their salvation', or that they really did not have it in the first place.

We discredit God, when we allow that He really cannot and does not forgive all sins, or that he really means only some sins. We also discredit God, and exalt man, to suggest that man can thwart the plan of God, that man can somehow do something so heinous that God cannot and will not forgive it, or that we cannot know for certain if we are even saved until after death, when it is too late. The writer of Hebrews tells us that the Lord Jesus Christ made a one time offering for sins, that he made a one time offering for sin. Each and every sin that I have ever committed, am committing, will commit, or even could have or potentially could commit was covered in that one time offering of His precious blood. And every single one of them was over 1900 years in the future when our Lord ws slain on Mt. Moriah.

There were no "past sins", for me, only "future sins", at Calvary. All of 'em!

Ed

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
Please Bob don't take anything personal. i was writing as objectively as possible using the word "you" generically, meaning anyone, not you personally.
I use the sin of adultery as an example because I know that it is a horrid sin in the eyes of most here. Your definition of a sin unto death and my definition of the same are quite a bit different. Adultery is not a "sin unto death," and one cannot prove it to be so. Perhaps another thread should be started on "sin unto death" or even a bit broader as "types of sin." But adultery does not fall there. Adultery is the same as lying. It is a transgression of the law. They are both breaking the Ten Commandments. So what is the difference in God's sight? None. It is just as bad to die with an unconfessed lie as it is to die with unconfessed adultery or in the act of adultery. What is the difference?
My sins are paid for. They were paid for at the time of salvation. They are under the blood. The minute I put conditions on the work of Christ--like saying that the sin must be confessed before I die, then I take away from grace, and my faith turns into a religion of works. It is no more of grace but of works. One cannot impose conditions on the salvation that Christ provided without any conditions.

Well said, Preach on!

Ed

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Romans 6:
10: For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11: Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12: Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13: Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14: For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15: What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16: Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17: But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18: Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

We can talk all we want but then there is scripture.

And no mockery?

Gotta go, for now. It's 'prayer time'. Think I'll take one from Scripture.

"Lord, I thank Thee that I'm not like these othe...!"



Ed

 

Grace and Peace Brother Bob,

Let's all not get in another Calvinism/Arminianism Soteriological debate... it's really not worth it to me. If someone is 'in sin' it would be wise for them to get out of it and avoid the occasion to sin but such a state isn't the end if we don't loose hope in Christ:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. - 1 John 1:9-10

I don't condemn anyone who still breaths.

God Bless.

 

Hi bound;
That is a answer that don't set your feet anywhere but on the fence.

You don't have to be the judge of anyone but we are sent to preach the word. What is the word and are we afraid to teach it when it is in conflict with someone? Preach the word, be instant in season and out of season, reprove and rebuke,

Are we doing that or just glossing over?

Jhn 8:21¶Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.

Don't you know all these fellows would be hugging my neck, if I would only agree that a saved person could die in the very act of adultery and still go to Heaven and sing with the angels. What kind of preaching is that? Honesty is the best policy.

 

Double post

 

Well said Ed. :saint: salute

 

Does anyone believe the "saved" don't commit adultery, steal, kill?

Do you all have gays in your church also? If they been saved and go back to the life of homosexuality, then its covered by His blood, so they have the "ticket"?

 

Grace and Peace Brother Bob,

Of course, to varying degrees of Sanctification. This is reminding me of Weslyan Theology more so than Baptist Theology. Can we discuss such views here?

God Bless.

 

Apparently we can't discuss the Laws of God here.

I think you said you believed the saved don't commit adultery, steal, kill, at least I sure hope so. It would be nice to find someone on here who don't believe that accepting Christ is a "ticket" to be able to commit such acts and not be responsible for them before God.

 

Bob, nobody on here has said that being saved is a "ticket" to committing sin without being responsible. You keep stating that, but it's simply not true.

 

Grace and Peace Brother Bob,

Well, I'm sure you know that I'm Arminian but I don't believe that just because a few fall that the race is over. The race isn't over until the end. If we fall, I don't believe, we should necessarily lament our failure and inpending doom, but get up and get back in the race. For me it's about perserverance to the end fighting the good fight. As much as I believe we are given the grace to be righteous and not just 'covered' I recognize in any fight we're going to get a black-eye and maybe even get knocked down a time or two.

From God's perspective our salvation is a done deal but from our perspective it's a daily renewal in the Spirit. The Bible speaks to us from both perspectives and it can get confusing. I've been in these debates before here and it's honestly not worth my time. If some wish to believe that they are given a license to sin by the death and resurrection of our Lord and Saviour, I ultimately wish them well but whole-heartedly disagree. That said I admire your persistance in arguing with them.

God Bless.

 

I been trying to explain how I believe about the Grace and I think you probably put it as well as I have heard it. I have said the same thing over and over but to no avail. I believe we are saved by His Grace and His Grace is sufficient to make a way for our temptations.

With your permission, I will use a part of that for my explaination. "I believe we are given the grace to be righteous and not just 'covered' ".

 

I don't see anyone here who has argued that, Bob. But the ONLY One who managed to always get away from the temptations was Christ.

The 'ticket to sin' line is a giant straw man. NNE is saying salvation gives a ticket to sin.

As humans, we find some sins much more heinous than others -- as they do damage to fellow humans.

But who is to say that God does not find sins directed against Him, with no repercussions regarding other humans even more heinous?

On the cross, Christ tasted death for EVERY man. He was the ONE sacrifice for ALL. There is no sin that will send anyone to hell. It is what you decide to do with Christ which determines your final destiny. He paid for the sins. Or, if you prefer Paul's other picture, the wages were paid. The wages were death and they only got paid once.

LIVING in sin -- sin and rebellion as a way of life -- indicate the heart of a person, even though only God can judge.

Falling into sin as a saved person is different. It is a falling, and it hurts, and we don't want it, and who on earth (or anyone else) wants a 'ticket' for pain and the consequences of sin once you are saved out of it?

Suppose it is a sin for this argument to be continuing this way and you were to die as you were typing an angry response? What then?

Are your sins covered or are they not? I'm not talking about forgiveness; I'm talking about atonement.

 

Helen; When someone says that they can die in the very act of adultery and go the Heaven and sing with the angels because they are covered with the blood of Christ, that is saying it is a "ticket" to sin.

Web: I know you believe someone who does such things will be punished here even up to losing their natural life, but you still believe the saved can commit such acts and I fall back to the "Grace" to keep me righteous.

In the first place, you do not understand me and accuse me of being angry, of which I am not. I am only using scriptures and defending the Word of God. That is not angry. I talk this way and ofter am accused of angry but it is not true. I use the way I talk to get my message across and always have. It is part of me, my make up, my personality, but not anger. I wish you would accept me for what I am.

Have you ever heard the Italians talk? You would think they are angry all the time but they are not. I am not Italian, but that is the way I am.

I also, believe the Lord will make a way for my escape and I have an advocate with God, if I do get too angry. That is what I mean when I say His Grace will keep me righteous.

You fall back to the blood "covered" but I not only fall to the blood "covered" but able to keep me righteous and that is to not let me go to the point of losing my salvation.

As you know I can list the sins that will keep you from Heaven and prove it is talking to the believers.

I ask you Helen, if you receive a Gay person in your church and he falls back to his old life style of homo, would you still keep him in your church?

 

Bob, I too fall back on "Grace" in keeping me righteous. There is no way that I can keep myself righteous...it's all God. If a certain sin could separate me from God, not only is God a liar, but I could never be saved again (Heb. 6).
As I have said, righteous is righteous, regardless of OT or NT standing. A righteous man will never perish.

 

I am glad Web; Only one thing you said that bothered me and that is you could die in the very act of adultery and go to Heaven. Where was the Grace at? If you could explain that then you and I would be close to the right track.

 

Bob, if you think the sins themselves are reasons people will not go to heaven then you are missing the entire point of Jesus' death and teachings.

In addition, what makes you think adultery is worse than other sins? I'm very serious about that question.

I am not in charge of membership in our church. Also, being removed from church membership roles is not the same as losing salvation. We are not Catholics or Mormons....