Is this statement true or false?

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
John 1 "IN the beginning WAS the WORD and the Word was WITH God and the Word WAS GOD"

Rev 19 - Christ appears at the 2nd coming and His name is WRITTEN "THE WORD OF GOD".

But of course - you have to "care" about what the Bible says "AS IF" it matters.

My question above is about doing actual research into the number of times "YHWH" is referenced as "The Angel of the Lord".

In Christ,

Bob

Thanks to Claudia and Kamaroso for actually looking up the references in "scriptura" to see what the "sola scriptura" response would be to this question about "the TEXT".

Odd that they are the only ones so far that seem to care enough to go look and SEE what "the text" says "sola scriptura" when it comes to this simple question.

Now I have the task of compiling their answers into a single reference document of "sola scriptura" examples that apply to the question asked.

What a great thing it is when you can discuss a subject like this "sola scriptura"!!

How wonderful if a few more posters on this thread that appear to have interest in the topic HAD had enough interest "sola scriptura" to look into the facts and respond with the examples "sola scriptura".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Dustin:
FALSE FALSE FALSE. The Bible says that the Word WAS God. Angels are a creation of God. If Jesus was an angel, technically He wouldn't be God. He'd be a creation lesser than God. Which goes against the Scriptures. In fact, believing such a thing would be calling the Bible a lie and God a liar. Christ is God the Son. Blessed be the name of God, Amen.

All true, except for the fact that the term "angel" merely means messenger. It do not always mean angelic being.

For example:

"And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush
burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed." Ex. 3:2

Then this Angel says in verse 6:

"Moreover He said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

Of course this is Jesus (John 8:24,58) sent by the Father as a messanger, i.e., an Angel of the Lord.

You will find Jesus also called an Angel of the LORD in Judges 6 and 13.

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by tamborine lady:

And here all this time I thought it meant an angel was sent to speak for the Lord, or for God!!

How silly of me to think it was not God.

How crazy!! When the bible says an angel of the Lord spoke, he is talking for God; at least that's the way I see it!

Peace,

Tam

I disagree. When angelic beings appeared to such people as Daniel in the OT, they never told him to take off his shoes because they are standing on holy ground as God told Moses in Ex.3. According to Rev. 19:10 they are just fellow servants.

That was indeed Jesus in Ex. 3 sent by the Father as a messanger, an Angel of the LORD, as the Lord Himself attests in John 8:24,58.

And anyone who knows any Hebrew knows that one can call Jesus, Who is fully God, an Angel of the LORD without making any reference to an angelic created being.

 

[BobRyan]

My first "reference file" summary of the points listed by Keith and Claudia "sola scriptura" deals with their first point observation from scripture on this subject.

When God (YHWH) appeared to Moses in the burning bush, He was first referred to as the angel of the Lord, and then plainly referred to as the LORD (YHWH). When ALL caps are used for LORD in the OT it means the word translated is YHWH!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Exod 3:
"2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the LORD (YHWH) saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I”’

6 Moreover he said, *I am* the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. .

Notice that the angel (messenger) of verse 2 is really none other than God Himself. This is confirmed in the New Testament-

The angel of the LORD which spoke to Moses, was in fact YHWH according to this text above!

Is God an “Angel” ?? No! But He appears at times in the OT as the “Angel of the LORD”. In Gen 18:1-3 he appears along with two Angels as “3 men walking toward Abram”. Is God simply “a man”? Are angels really “men”?? No!

Acts 7
30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sinai an *angel of the Lord* in a flame of fire in a bush.
31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,
32 Saying, *I am* the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

Now note the following-

Exodus 3[/b]
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, *I AM* THAT *I AM*: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, *I AM* hath sent me unto you.

God IS the great *I AM*. In fact specifically Christ HIMSELF is the great “I AM” (YHWH) of the OT

John 8
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, *I am*.

God, YHWH, “The Angel of the Lord” – Jesus Christ (God the Son) all referenced in that term.
</font>[/QUOTE]Many thanks for that "sola scriptura" response Keith and Claudia! Always good to have this important "first point" on the subject.

Now for the "Second point".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Dustin]

Right Right.

 

[BobRyan]

Second point from their posts -

Now for one of the most compelling sequences in all of scripture showing that the “Angel of the Lord” speaks and once again calls Himself YHWH!!


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Gen 22:
1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

11 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

15 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD (YHWH), for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Who will bless Abraham and multiply his seed? Notice the transition from *angel of the LORD* in verse 15 to the LORD (Jesus Christ) in verse 16? In vs 16 the reader (and Abraham) is told by it is “saith the LORD (YHWH)”
</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[Eliyahu]

It is a great pity that you guys don't distinguish between El and Malack as English Bibles don't distinguish them.

1. El or Elohim ( plural) means normal and usual angels who are serving and ministering mankind ( Heb 1:14)

2. There is a special Angel ( I believe 2 including Holy Spirit)named Ha- Malack ( The Angel or The Envoy)
For example, the Angel called Jacob (Gen 31:11) and said I am God at Beth-El (the House of God)
Claudia pointed out the verses showing Malack in OT.
This Angel was in charge of Redemption and therefore He was shown up at the time when Abraham tried to offer Isaac as Burnt Offerfing. Jacob confessed the Angel as Redeemer ( Gen 48:16)

As Kamoroso posted, Ex 23:20-22 shows this Angel very clearly. My Name is in Him ( ex 23:21)

This is Pre-Incarnate Jesus Christ , no doubt.

3. I believe Archangel Michael is different from this Malack, Gabriel is one of the elohim and therefore different from this Malack.


4. The Spirit of Christ is mentioned in NT as the one who worked during OT times.


1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 

[Chemnitz]

I believe Archangel Michael is different from this Malack, Gabriel is one of the elohim and therefore different from this Malack.


4. The Spirit of Christ is mentioned in NT as the one who worked during OT times.

Wow, now the angels are gods what next are you going to come up with?

Your pet theory falls down since Elohim is consistantly used to describe God unless you are going to claim a creature created the heavens and the earth.

El according to the BDB Hebrew English Lexicon is the short from for Elohim which means god generally used in the OT to indicate YHWH.

 

[Eliyahu]

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I believe Archangel Michael is different from this Malack, Gabriel is one of the elohim and therefore different from this Malack.


4. The Spirit of Christ is mentioned in NT as the one who worked during OT times.

Wow, now the angels are gods what next are you going to come up with?

Your pet theory falls down since Elohim is consistantly used to describe God unless you are going to claim a creature created the heavens and the earth.

El according to the BDB Hebrew English Lexicon is the short from for Elohim which means god generally used in the OT to indicate YHWH. </font>[/QUOTE]Please don't respond to my post as we better avoid any further crash.

Do you remember the following exchanges?

Originally posted by Chemnitz:
How dare you insinuate such garbage. . [/QB]

How dare you spout the Garbage from your mouth ?

 

[BobRyan]

4. The Spirit of Christ is mentioned in NT as the one who worked during OT times.


1 Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

True but according to John 16 - the "Spirit of Truth" is in fact this Spirit of Christ - God the Holy Spirit.

Often when you see him referenced in the NT as being active in the OT the text just says "for the Spirit expressly says"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by Jarthur001:
Hi Claudia,


Josh 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Josh 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as *captain of the host* of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Josh 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

**************

This has been shown a few times to be used as a term showing Christ, yet not a angel.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3853/3.html#000036

In Christ..james

James,

But dont you see? The CAPTAIN OF THE HOSTS is Jesus, yes, but what are the HOSTS that He is captain of? Havent you ever heard the tern "Heavenly Hosts" That refers to all the angels! Jesus is CAPTAIN or leader of all the angels and thus, called Michael the Archangel, but this DOES NOT MEAN Jesus is a literal angel just as the Bible when it alludes to John the Baptist as an "Angel" does not mean John the Baptist is a literl "Angel" it just means a term for "Messenger of God".

Mt:25:31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory

John 1:
6: There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7: The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8: He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

Jesus is the number one cheif messenger of God! The Word

John the Baptist:
Mal 3:1 Behold* I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts.

* Matt. 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 1:17; and 7:27.

The first angel or messenger mentioned in the verse alludes to John the Baptist, who preceded Jesus Christ and prepared the way for Him, but the angel of the testament / covenant who comes to His temple is clearly Jesus Christ. So Jesus is described in scripture as the *angel or messenger of the covenant*. That covenant likely being the one made to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15, that a redeemer would come to rescue a fallen humanity, or in addition, as we have previously noted, it was Jesus who appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai in the burning bush, and He also gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on tables of stone, which were placed in the container known as the ark of the covenant.

Therefore, in Malachi both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ are referred to as angels, or messengers, in the broadest sense of the meaning of the word. An angel in scripture can simply be a messenger, without meaning the created heavenly winged-being that most associate with the term. This is the key point to be made, Jesus can be referred to as an angel (messenger) without detracting from His deity in any way at all.

 

[Chemnitz]

Eliyahu, if you don't want people to respond. Don't post, otherwise be prepared to defend your statements.

I will admit what I said in response to your rumormongering was in anger, but it doesn't make what I wrote less true.

 

[Claudia_T]

Whom did God promise would especially guide Israel to the Promised Land?
"Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared ." Exodus 23:20.

Who was the Rock that went with them?
"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ ." 1 Corinthians 10:4.

It was Christ, by the power of His word, that caused the refreshing stream to flow for Israel. "They drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." 1 Corinthians 10:4. He was the source of all temporal as well as spiritual blessings. Christ, the true Rock, was with them in all their wanderings. "They thirsted not when He led them through the deserts: He caused the waters to flow out of the rock for them; He clave the rock also, and the waters gushed out." "They ran in the dry places like a river." Isaiah 48:21; Psalm 105:41.

[ April 29, 2006, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

[Claudia_T]

One thing I would like for people to grasp is the beauty of this whole thing if understood rightly.

Jesus has been with His people throughout the history of mankind... all during old testament times He was with them... termed sometimes as "An Angel of the Lord" .


"God with us" Immanuel. Even before Jesus came in bodily form as a man, He was with His people in old testament times. (see my post above)

Its too bad that for some it is difficult to get past the "literal angel" aspect of it, which prevents them from seeing this.

 

[Eric B]

Wow, now the angels are gods what next are you going to come up with?

Your pet theory falls down since Elohim is consistantly used to describe God unless you are going to claim a creature created the heavens and the earth.

El according to the BDB Hebrew English Lexicon is the short from for Elohim which means god generally used in the OT to indicate YHWH.

But the word often is used for other beings besides God, including even men (the rulers of Israel--"revile not the gods". It's also of course used for the [false] gods of other nations.
It is just like our word "god/God", meaning both the true God, as well as false ones, depending on the context. (and we of course have capitalization, as well). YHWH was the name that specifically applied to God and no other. El/Elohim was more like a title, that rightly belonged to Him, but could loosely be applied to others as well.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Claudia_T:
[QB] One thing I would like for people to grasp is the beauty of this whole thing if understood rightly.

Jesus has been with His people throughout the history of mankind... all during old testament times He was with them...

But this would be "believed" EVEN if you did not associate God the Son with Michael.

However your point about "seeing the Angel of the LORD" being in fact "SEEING God the Son" and thus showing how close God was to us - would be a point that this idea brings home.

The other thing this brings home is the fact that God the Son "as the WORD" conveys infinite God not only the humans but also to Angels. In other words there is an "infinite gap" between all created beings and infinite God.

ONLY an infinite being like God the Son could bridge that gap and perfectly "explain" or reveal God to finite beings EVEN if they are Angels!

(Not that this is in an actual "voted" - doctrine of SDAs, but still an interesting topic.)

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Often those who object to this subject being discussed - are in fact objecting to the arian views of those like the JW's who claim that Christ was not "God the Son" appearing in the form of an Angel - but was in fact nothing more than a created being.

And of course no one can blame them for objecting to such an error.

Another interesting thing about the "right" view of this subject is that in Rev 12 "Michael and HIS angels" is NOT in fact a statement about anyone BUT GOD actually having "angels" loyal to Him in the proper way.

There is only "Satan and HIS angels" - the rebellion, the evil model, vs God and "HIS angels" the right model where infinite God is the ONE to whom all are devoted, loyal!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

In this world as "parents" we can not be the "friend" of our children and "their parent" in all cases. But God becomes the "friend" of his creation through Christ their "elder brother" at the same time we see in God the Father - "the distant" infinite power, the "distant" authorotative throne of the Universe!

So we have "God near" -- "God with us" and we also have God "far" - almighty, infinite throne of the Universe ruling with omniscient insight.

In this way He can get down on the rug and play with the kids WHILE also commanding from a distance and with just a word - sparing the child from running in the street and getting hurt.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Claudia_T]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
In this world as "parents" we can not be the "friend" of our children and "their parent" in all cases. But God becomes the "friend" of his creation through Christ their "elder brother" at the same time we see in God the Father - "the distant" infinite power, the "distant" authorotative throne of the Universe!

So we have "God near" -- "God with us" and we also have God "far" - almighty, infinite throne of the Universe ruling with omniscient insight.

In this way He can get down on the rug and play with the kids WHILE also commanding from a distance and with just a word - sparing the child from running in the street and getting hurt.

In Christ,

Bob

I just thought of the time when the disciples were walking along and Jesus, posing as a "regular man" came up to walk beside them and they started talking. It wasnt till later that they realized it was in fact, Jesus.

...and so, God does that some times

Luke 24

13: And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14: And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15: And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16: But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17: And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18: And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?
19: And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21: But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22: Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23: And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24: And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25: Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28: And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29: But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30: And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31: And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight
32: And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?.

 

[Claudia_T]

Jesus, walking along posing as a regular man in that last post I did, reminds me of this:


Judg 13:3 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

*Angel of God/the Lord* appears in verses 9,13, and 15-18.
Note what Manoah asks in verse 17 and the answer in verse 18:

Judg 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
Judg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

The Hebrew word translated "secret" in the King James (H6383) also can mean "wonderful". Note that this is a title for Jesus:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

So who had Manoah and his wife been speaking with?

Judg 13:21 But the *angel of the LORD* did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an *angel of the LORD*.
Judg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.