Is this the Arminian Stumper?

[Yelsew]

Samuel,

My brother answered this sufficently. BTW, where do you find support of that in scripture? And you need to talk with Yelsew, he still thinks faith is from man, not God. At least you recongize it's from God--That's good.

EXCUSE me Sam, you misstate me! If God created me with faith as an attribute, which he did, then Faith is of God! I believe that in the creation, man was given all of the non-eternal attributes that are also true of God. What man did not receive are the omni-attributes. Typical of what man received as attributes are love, grace, mercy, justice (at least a sense of), faith, intellect, and free will. With all of that, man was deceived into trying for more...godhood! Man sinned and that sin (disobedience of God) became part of man's essence too! Thus separating created man from creator God. That sin did not strip man of any of the attributes that God gave him in the creation, but did remove the state of holiness that Adam and Eve enjoyed with God. Sin taints how man uses his attributes. Since man no longer has a holiness state, the attributes God gave him cannot be used in holiness. The lack of a holiness state is not Total Depravity, but rather a "lost" state, a state where what was, is no longer.

God gave man faith as an attribute similar to God's own faithfulness. God's attribute of Faithfulness is the condition of always being true. Man's faith is a condition of dependency upon that which is true. What is true to man is dependent upon what man believes. That is where intellect, another attribute given to man by God, comes in. Intellect is the mechanism whereby man arrives at what is or is not believable, and thus establishes what man will have faith in. Each man, using his own intellect, determines what is believable to him. That is why these discussions on this BBS indicate the diversity of beliefs among "Christians". If God caused all of our beliefs, there would be no diversity, we would all believe exactly alike.

That is where the Holy Scriptures come in. They contain the Word of God. My intellect has convinced me that is true. God's Holy Spirit does not 'control' the spirit of man, that simply is not God's plan. The Holy Spirit does however influence, by affirmation, what a man, who is inclined toward spiritual matters, intellectually determines to be true. If it is true, man accepts it into his faith. If not true, man does not accept it. So long is man's spirit is inclined away from depravity and sin, the Holy Spirit remains to "guide" the man in his affairs. However, while man is inclined to sin, the Holy Spirit being Holy cannot co-abide with sin, so man is "given over" to his sinful inclinations, many to depravity and a few to total depravity, (as Paul told the Roman church about Romans. It is not true that as the Romans were, all man are).

What a man believes, that is "has faith in", determines his salvific state, because it marks his spirit by what he has faith in. If the man, as Jesus says, believes in Jesus, even in his name, and confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, the 'mark of Jesus' upon his spirit is indelible, and the greater is the affirmation by the Holy Spirit to the man that his belief is true.

Does God cause man to believe one way or the other? I believe that God place his indelible mark into the essence of man, after all He created man in his own image, even so, I do not believe that God determines what man will believe beyond the influencing power of the Holy Spirit.

I believe that God has done all the work to persuade man, including an already established eternity and all that implies. God has already accomplished all the work, and has made the facts of the work available to all mankind. So, there is nothing for man to do to be redeemed except mentally and spiritually weigh the facts and arrive at belief in Jesus. No work to do, and works is not a possible route to belief, which is the only means of Salvation available to man.

Does this render God powerless? Absolutely not! God is in every aspect of man's salvation. Without God there would be no redemption or salvation! But it remains man's choice to believe or not believe. Thus man determines his eternal destiny. Example:

[Acts 26:28] Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian.

With tongue in cheek, I guess that Agrippa, whom God appointed to be the king, was simply not 'elected' to be a believer.

[ January 24, 2003, 02:05 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
With tongue in cheek, I guess that Agrippa, whom God appointed to be the king, was simply not 'elected' to be a believer.

How do you know Agrippa never came to believe after that conversation?

Why do you assume that salvation of the elect is only a supernatural process, and does not also involve God using people like Paul as a conduit for the Spirit to speak to people like Agrippa?

You seem to think that because people can be persuaded that this therefore excludes the possibility that they are only able to be persuaded because they are the elect.

 

[Ray Berrian]

I disagree that minimizing sin is only an Arminian problem. First, let me say I strongly believe in the security of the believer, which of course means that that person has received grace and knows the Lord. In other words, I am a one point Calvinist.

Having graduated from two Arminian schools, one a Bible College and the other a seminary, they blame Calvinists for being those who teach antinomianism which means against the Law. Since once saved always saved, some have inadvertently given the idea that after one is saved it doesn't matter how you conduct your life. Since we still retain the Adamic nature until the hour of death, we all have to fight against sin. Hopefully, a true Christian does not want to 'grieve the Holy Spirit.' The problem of carelessness as sinning goes, it is more a matter of the human heart and our dependency and devotedness to Him.

Telling the sinner of the hatred that God has against sin and of his rebellion against Christ only magnifies His love and grace when they come to understand that He has outstretched arms toward every lost person. [Isaiah 65:1-2; Romans 10:11]

Even the ligitimate things that the lost people do, appear to God as wicked. [Proverbs 21:4] Sinners need to know that they never can please Almighty God except by receiving His Son and our Lord.

Balance is all-important. Yes, He hates sin and the sinner, but the only way of of the dilemma is by believing in Christ and His saving merits accomplished on the Cross.

 

[Primitive Baptist]

Yes, He hates sin and the sinner, but the only way of of the dilemma is by believing in Christ and His saving merits accomplished on the Cross.

I thought Arminians believed that God didn't hate anybody.

 

[Yelsew]

How can it be that God hates the sinner if He so loved the world that he gave his Son to take upon himself the sins of the world, then to die and take those sins to the grave where they no longer hold sway over the spirit of any man who believes in Jesus?

 

[Brutus]

Yelsew;read your Bible,it's there in black and white!

 

[Yelsew]

You imply that God hates his creation, man in particular. Please help me with scripture references that say God hates man?

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Please help me with scripture references that say God hates man?

Psalm 5:5(NASB)
5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes;
You hate all who do iniquity.

Psalm 11:5(NASB)
5 The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked,
And the one who loves violence His soul hates.

 

[Yelsew]

Sorry Ken H, but the last time I checked David was King not God!

I know, "all scripture is given by inspiration...."
And truly David was inspired to write those words, but they don't prove the point!

God hates sin, He hates Satan, He hates Satan's demons, because these destroy God's creation. And he hates that man chose to sin. But he loved the world so much that he gave his only Son to save the world.

 

[Skandelon]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Sorry Ken H, but the last time I checked David was King not God!

I know, "all scripture is given by inspiration...."
And truly David was inspired to write those words, but they don't prove the point!

God hates sin, He hates Satan, He hates Satan's demons, because these destroy God's creation. And he hates that man chose to sin. But he loved the world so much that he gave his only Son to save the world.

So we now know where you stand on the authority of scripture. But please don't misquote it. John 3:16 never says that "he gave his only Son to save the world." It says that he will save "whoever believes."

But the reason some don't believe is because they "are not his sheep." (John 10:26; 8:47)

You may not believe all of the scripture, but that does not give you the right to misquote it!


If the verses Ken listed didn't make the point why did you say that David was a King not God? I know why, because you know David's words contradicts your beliefs so you assert that David is not speaking God's words. To quote Jack Nicholas, "You can't handle the Truth!"

[ January 25, 2003, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: Samuel ]

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Sorry Ken H, but the last time I checked David was King not God!

I know, "all scripture is given by inspiration...."
And truly David was inspired to write those words, but they don't prove the point!

God hates sin, He hates Satan, He hates Satan's demons, because these destroy God's creation. And he hates that man chose to sin. But he loved the world so much that he gave his only Son to save the world.

1. Not printed in red ink.
3. John 3:16

Wow - 2 out of 3 in one post! If only you had figured out a way to add the part about God not commanding anything unless we could comply, I would have batted 1000.

 

[Brutus]

Yelsew;no one ought to conclude that because God's love is universally extended to all that God therefore loves everyone equally!The fact that God loves every man and woman does not mean that He loves all alike,Rom.9:13.There are those like you who deny that God truly hates anyone.You will say that:God hates the sin but loves the sinner.That my friend is a false dichotomy!Remember this,it is the sinner himself who is judged and condemned and punished.If God hated only the sin and not the sinner,He would strip away the sin and redeem the sinner,rather than casting the whole person into hell,Mt.5:29;10:28.Hell is,afterall,the final expression of God's hatred.Yes,God does hate the reprobate sinner in a very real and terrifying sense!This is clearly taught in Scripture,Ps.5:5-6;11:5.This is not a milicious hatred,it is a holy abhorance for that which is vile,loathsome and evil.But,it is true hatred nonetheless!How can you maintain that God loves all when Paul says that He(God)bears the objects of His wrath,being fitted for destruction,with great patience,Rom.9:22.How can you possibly accept that God loves all men without exception when you survey the acts of God's wrath throughout history?What about the flood which destroyed all but 8 souls?What about Sodom and Gomorrah?And with so specific a chapter as is Rom.1,which declares that sodomy is a sign of reprobation,how can you possibly maintain that God loved the population of those two cities which God destroyed with fire?The love of God for all humanity is not the sort of love that guarantees everyone's salvation.

 

[Yelsew]

Brutus,

The fact that God loves every man and woman does not mean that He loves all alike,

Then by your definition, God becomes a respecter of men.

He did not send his son to die for those he loved, for if he loves some more than he loves others, he'd simply save the ones he loves the most.

Since even the slightest sin makes all men equal in God's eyes, how is it that God can love any one man more than another for all have sinned!

God sent Jesus for All men, not just for the elect or those he loves more than others. He included the most vile and despicable of humanity. For in them, should they choose to believe in Jesus, God gets his greater glory. What glory is there in winning your friends, you already have them? The real glory is winning the most defiled, and restoring them to their rightful place.

That my friend is a false dichotomy! Remember this,it is the sinner himself who is judged and condemned and punished. If God hated only the sin and not the sinner, He would strip away the sin and redeem the sinner,rather than casting the whole person into hell,

God did not create us that way, He does not remove the sin from a person's life, the person must do that by repenting, and we, the person's, are commanded to repent! Over and over we hear, "Repent and be baptized". If we don't of our own free will repent, we remain unrepentant. We can have our confessed sins forgiven multitudes of times, but if we do not repent from sinning, we remain unrepentant! God does not condemn the person, but through the person's unrepentance, he/she self condemns.

Since the person and his unrepentance cannot be separated by any but the person, the unrepentant person is cast out with the sin. God hates Sin. God is holy, and Holiness and sin cannot coexist!

The flood and Sodom and Gomorrah are God's ways of dealing with unrepented sin. Do you think for a nano-second that God would have destroyed the people in Noah's time or the people of Sodom and Gomorrah if the people had repented from their sin? The fact is, they were not willing to change, so God destroyed them, just as he will destroy all who do not of their own free will choose to repent from sinning, which is perhaps the most difficult of things that humanity must do. And that is why God gave us his Holy Spirit to be "our comforter", our guide, the one who convicts us of our sin, so that we will confess and repent from sinning, and thus be made clean from all unrighteousness.

God does truly love all men with equal love. Just as God has but one Grace, God has but one love. The amount we receive of each is totally up to us.

In the case of Grace and Love, we truly can open our bag wider and receive a greater portions of what God desires we should have. However, opening our bag wider exposes our innermost selves to God who sees everything we do. If sin remains in us unrepented, God sees it and convicts us of it. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. But, if we do not deliberately repent by our own free will from sinning, we remain unrepentant. Come judgement day?

 

[Hardsheller]

Yelsew - The conclusion I reach from reading your posts on just about every topic in this forum is that there must be a lot of pastors in "The West" who thank God every day that you refuse to affiliate with their Churches.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Brutus,

I think you said, 'The fact that God loves every man and woman does not mean He loves them alike.' (meaning the same?)

God's attributes are infinite, meaning 'inexhaustible and without measure.' No human being should demean His grace, love or justice in order to mend the fences of his or her theology.

I know where you are coming from as to believing that God loves His elect and apparently loving less or even hating the non-elect. How does your Bible express John 3:16? 'For God so loved the elect, that He gave His only begotten Son, that the predestinated believe in Him and shall not perish but have everlasting life.' I'll check the Greek on this verse as time allows.

 

[Yelsew]

Originally posted by Hardsheller:
Yelsew - The conclusion I reach from reading your posts on just about every topic in this forum is that there must be a lot of pastors in "The West" who thank God every day that you refuse to affiliate with their Churches.

Yes, it is sad that I must report that quite a number of pastors in the West are teachers of false, unsupportable religion. But there are many who are obedient to the scriptures, whom I support, and who welcome me into their midst.

 

[Bondservant]

It is a sad day in the age of the church, when one point of so called doctrine takes presidence over the truth of Scripture. Who is "predestined" and who is not? Just be busy telling every single person with whom you come in contact with and you will not find a loser. Just share what you know and put aside your petty differences and ideas of who God would "elect" and who He would not "elect." Please stop harming the cause of Christ.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Bondservant:
It is a sad day in the age of the church, when one point of so called doctrine takes presidence over the truth of Scripture. Who is "predestined" and who is not? Just be busy telling every single person with whom you come in contact with and you will not find a loser. Just share what you know and put aside your petty differences and ideas of who God would "elect" and who He would not "elect." Please stop harming the cause of Christ.

I thought we were all believers here. Can we not discuss issues that relate to the Glory of God without drawing the conclusion that either side will stop sharing the Gospel outside of the confines of this BBS?

 

[Sularis]

Npet - one would hope so but then one reads comments like

Yelsew - The conclusion I reach from reading your posts on just about every topic in this forum is that there must be a lot of pastors in "The West" who thank God every day that you refuse to affiliate with their Churches.

Then you expect me to play nice - Sorry Im vicious - every time I feel like being nice - I just have to look at my hands typing and I can see the scars that my fellow Christians left me with in their childish attempt to "not" kill me. Then I also remember they believe the same thing you do.

Perhaps in a few more decades the scars will fade - after all its been a decade since I last got the major ones.