Is this to be taken literally??????

[HankD]

Thanks Grasshopper,

After 40 plus years with the Lord I am still unable (after several changes) to give full credence to any of the various eschatalogical view points but I take pleasure in the study.
I am not too vocal about this matter seeing that so many are so quickly given to heated debates and exchanges (its the Baptist way).

I lean towards an ammended kind of dispensationalism but avoid the title of dispensational.
I am not a typical "secret rapture" fan.

I guess I'll just have to wait and see, that's why I call myself a pan-millenialist (it will all "pan" out in the end).

Perhaps not the best of positions but alas, it is what I am.

A few essentials : The Second Coming of Jesus Christ will be bodily and visible to those upon the earth. We don't know when.

"Occupy till I come"

HankD

 

[DeafPosttrib]

I do have book - "Last Days Madness" by Gary DeMarr.

I did read that book. He is partial-preterist.

I do not alway agree with him. But, he do believe Jessu will come again in physical and literal at the second coming is future event.

Obivously, he disagree on pretribulational.

Many things, he intepreting scriptures into spiritualizes.

Some Christians saying, sun, moon, and stars are symbolic meanings, not literal. I disagree with them.

Joel 2:31 supports Matt 24:29 that the world will SEE sun, moon, and stars become darkened - literal event, that will be after the tribulation at the second advent.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Tim]

HankD's quote,",OK I would be interested in what your interpretation of the following if it is not literal. And if not, what is the non-literal fulfillment in history along with the dates and historic documentation such as when all the tribes of the earth mourned.

I am looking forward to your exegesis.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Hank, I think your question is sincere--so here's my exegesis. With a little intro first.

The sun, moon and stars first mention in prophecy was Joseph's prophetic dream in Gen. 37. His father accepted the figurative meaning of those celestial objects without the blink of an eye. The sun was the greatest authority, the moon a complement (or reflection) of that authority, and the stars were offspring in Gen. 37. So what if we apply the same basic model to other potentially figurative prophecies about celestial bodies (as in Joel and Mat)?

The sun darkened, or hidden from view--God's favor upon the sinful nation of Israel withdrawn. The moon giving no light--Israel no longer reflecting God's light of truth. The stars falling--the leaders of the tribes of Israel (often represented by stars, beginning in Gen 37) falling, or being destroyed. The powers of heaven shaken (refer to Heb. 12)--a massive change in God's dealing with His people.

Then Christ comes in judgment upon Jerusalem (first century, sign spoken of by Josephus). All the tribes (Jewish 12 tribes) of the earth (the word means "land" far more often than "globe") mourn--God will not deliver them! At that time "every eye shall see Him, even them that crucified Him" (prophesied at Jesus trial, again in Rev. 1--the guilty of Isreal would see him as their judge "coming in power")

Out of this destruction, Christ calls out His faithful remnant from all around the world (as Col. 1:6 notes that Christianity had so spread all over the Roman "world")--the church, gathered out of Israel and the heathen nations round about.

Additionally, I believe Joel confirms this interpretation by his prophecy, first the darkening of sun, moon to blood (destruction of Israel)--stated by Peter as "this is that" in Acts 2. Then in association with that, salvation to "whosoever believes" (not just Jews, Rom. 10:12,13), through the chosen believing remnant (the church).

That's pretty much the way I see it.

Tim

 

[LadyEagle]

Originally posted by Grasshopper:
Matthew 24:21

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Literal? and what do you think it means?

P.S.there will be a follow-up question.

Literal (feeling sorry for those who think it is figurative or not going to happen at all....sigh)

 

[Me2]

theres two tribulations or times of testing.

which parallel the OT tabernacle template.

the OT tabernacle template of Heaven:
the first veil allows the priest to fellowship with the mediator (lord) and their fellow priests inside the tabernacle.
the second veil allows one to fellowship with God.
inside the Holy of Holies.

both veils symbolising times of testing or trials.
as paralleled in our NT language.

the first tribulation in the sanctification process involves recognising the love of God to self. and the capabilities of the Father and his accomplishment of Raising Jesus From the dead.

in 1 john, this is described as between children and young men stage.

wisdom and understanding is required, and is directly given by the holy spirit to the believer and their faith will be tried. success or failure will be concluded. either one proceeds to the next level, or trial, or is reproved and possibly denied further access to the knowledge within the sanctifiaction process.Now, the young priest may either be able to enter into the veil of the tabernacle and fellowship within or they are denied.

easy earmark of accomplishment. Jesus is Lord

and notice the ones who dont succeed at the acknowledgement of Jesus as lord. they are now called disobedient. unable to entter into the veil of the tabernacle (or heaven).

the second tribulation or great tribulation parallels the OT tabernacle template with the sanctification of the High Priest. The only one that could enter into the veil of the Holy of Holies. the veil here symbolises more trials of faith and further sanctification concerning the character of God and grace toward fellow man. this in 1 John is between the young man stage and the father stage.

another earmark. God is Love. forgiveness and mercy for Fellow man

again in revelation in reference to tribulations and resurrections. language disguised as merely a jew describing the spiritual sanctification and growth processes in the believers life.although colorful and imaginative. Its in detail of the Lord destroying all the believers enemies.
this is involving the spiritual growth of the believer in our lives. not hoping that one is good enough someday when we die but, concerning todays relationship with God.

jesus was mentioning the same process in various ways. as did paul, peter, and john.

so great tribulations, huh ... try giving up your life for some one other than for self. just because one believes that is who God is.

thats faith being tested. thats tribulation.

and mat 24 is still figurative.

Me2

 

[HankD]

That's pretty much the way I see it.

Tim,

Interesting, Is this the preterist point of view?
If not what?

Also, is Christ coming back to earth literally at any time in your point of view?

HankD

 

[Primitive Baptist]

HankD,

You stated that those things in Isaian 13 have not happened yet. Actually, they did. Isaiah 13 was a prophecy of the destruction of Babylon in 539 BC.

 

[Me2]

HankD...try breaking down just what is happening when a new babe in christ "wakes up".

as did thousands (millions?) of Jews on the day of Pentacost

theres their old carnal mind, their New spirit, the Holy Spirit, Satan, and the law.

all within you competing for control of your will.

and all you want is to know God. but how do you go about this. do you succumb to the power of the holy spirit or by following a set of "rule" given to you through the law.

you choose to follow the law..you will fail eventually. and theres satan accussing you of failing.

or do you follow the advise of the holy spirit and believe in the unseen savior that has already accomplished this..and died.

unfortunately we are greedy. we take the law.
here's a hint. thats Gods way. the law was given to man to kill us of our carnal desires to think we can act towards being good before God. when its impossible. remember the curse.

but yet theres the spirit waiting in the wings..
forever entreating us to rest. making us more desiring to try it our way. (were still greedy)

if we fail at following the law..we win. we are killed by the law..but saved by the spirit with the acknowledgement of accepting someone who has been risen from the dead.

all that to say..thats tribulation.
choices and confusion and greed and guilt
trying, trying, trying..
failing, failing ,failing.

we lust after the things of the spirit.
until it kills us.

 

[HankD]

You stated that those things in Isaian 13 have not happened yet. Actually, they did. Isaiah 13 was a prophecy of the destruction of Babylon in 539 BC.

Literally or figuratively or both?

HankD

 

[HankD]

Dear Me2,

It is evident that Christ spoke in parables and His disciples were always after Him for explanations. Nothing has changed and we all still quarrel amongst ourselves assured within our hearts that we ourselves have the correct point of view.

As to the "end times", Christ prediction/prophecy of the destruction of the Temple and the sack of Jerusalem was indeed literal as history has proven. My problem (admitedly rooted in my flesh) is that many other prophetic things in the Scripture exist side by side with these prophecies of the literal destruction of the Temple , etc which (other prohecies) some declare as figurative.

There seems just too many "end-of-world/age" global type prophecies in Scripture for it to be all figuratively fulfilled in 70AD. Matthew 13 in particular.

Sorting it all out is not only my problem but many others as well. In fact as I said before, this is one place where there seems to be "more heat than light".

But keep talking and perhaps the light will come on.

HankD

 

[Grasshopper]

For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. (Isaiah 13:10)

Read vs. 17. Unless the Medes are to be re-born, this has already happened.

 

[Tim]

HankD, yes my interpretation of Mat. 24 is a preterist interpretation. But overall, I am a partial-preterist--still looking for the Lord's return, though not associated with the signs of the first century.

Me2, I find your posts to be good spiritual application, but questionable interpretation. There is a historical base to these prophecies.

SheEagle, No pity necessary. Just because we don't focus on modern Israel, doesn't mean we don't look forward to Jesus' return.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Me2]

tim,

keep in mind the bible is read by two groups of believers.
obedient and disobedient.

some view the bible through their carnal eyes and receive a carnal message from their "carnal" God.

although God could weave historical relevance into his words. there secondary to the focus of the message. the focus was that a spiritual upheaval was about to occur "within" these people when they would soon be facing this internal spiritual war.

Gods method of teaching is to withstand suffering and to lower ones attitude towards self so that Gods power could be expressed and experienced.

some expect God to return to destroy their enemies. that may be true partially. He comes to destroy the power that they have over the believer making the enemy powerless yet not destroyed from existence. only to the point where the enemy becomes understandable. thats tribulation for some. some expect their enemies demise, but God does not do this. and they become angry and misunderstand God intentions.

while others depend on God that His methodology of expressing himself becomes one of equality among all where enemies only become powerless. even pitied to the point of the believer offering agape love to restore anothers misunderstanding of Who God is and His overall Plans for his creation.

thats tribulation through suffering.

so I attempt to stay focused on the main theme of God. first the spiritual change within the believer and then maybe some historical or literal events could be woven into Gods message.

understanding Gods plan and his character is paramount to understanding His Focus of His Message.

misunderstanding Gods character and Plans only leads one to focus on the literal, carnal interprtation while overlooking the actual spiritual message.

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by Tim:
SheEagle, No pity necessary. Just because we don't focus on modern Israel, doesn't mean we don't look forward to Jesus' return.

Tim, as you and I have discussed on more than one occassion, I don't focus on modern Israel and am still a dispensationalist. I am just not a Larkinist. Sheeagle is. He was a radical dispensationalist.

 

[HankD]

Amazing! How divergent the views amongst believers concerning the Second Coming.

Actually I think it is a good thing.

Every time I try to redefine/define my own position I am amazed all over again.

HankD

 

[Tim]

Daniel David,

I'm cool with your lack of focus on modern Israel.

BTW, I guess congrats are in order.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Tim]

me2,

First let me say that it's nice to have someone on the board that's even more into figurative and allegorical interpretation than I am--it makes me look like a literalist!

I believe our sovereign God uses history as the source of His object lessons. It only becomes a carnal reading of Scripture if we don't apply the spiritual lessons there, but instead focus on historical events just for the sake of history, prediction of future events, etc. I think O.T. stories are chock full of figures and allegories pointing to Christ and His work, but they are still accurately recorded historical events--orchestrated by the hand of God. I think prophecy is much the same--historical events which paint spiritual truths.

I can't remember the last time I got scolded for being too literal. It was a nice change of pace.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Me2]

Hi Tim,

Im not on anyones case. Just expressing my thoughts....like..

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? [them that are] weaned from the milk, [and] drawn from the breasts.
Isa 28:10 For precept [must be] upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little:
Isa 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
Isa 28:12 To whom he said, This [is] the rest [wherewith] ye may cause the weary to rest; and this [is] the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Isa 28:13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, [and] there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Isa 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which [is] in Jerusalem.
Isa 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.
Isa 28:19 From the time that it goeth forth it shall take you: for morning by morning shall it pass over, by day and by night: and it shall be a vexation only [to] understand the report.
Isa 28:20 For the bed is shorter than that [a man] can stretch himself [on it]: and the covering narrower than that he can wrap himself [in it].


Isa 29:10 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.
Isa 29:11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which [men] deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it [is] sealed:
Isa 29:12 And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:
Isa 29:14 Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, [even] a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise [men] shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent [men] shall be hid.


Is this literal enough for you?

like I posted previously...
God teaches us each personally.
first wisdom and then understanding.

the bible, or parchments only gives us hints into the lives of others that God interracted with. It helps us (our carnal reasonings) understand what He is doing in our own lives. through the spirit that understands and relays this information to parallel with the experiences of others.

reading a book is nice but first God speaks wisdom to us and we also have to experience the understanding.
its a two part lesson plan. and the bible allows us to mentally file the experience for witnessing purposes.

Knowledge of God and self is two parts:
wisdom and understanding (proverb 2:1-6)
then you get to hunt for the mental comprehension and expression.

line by line, precept by precept.

so I know that many spiritual things are hidden to others.

whether it be allegorical or contextual

Me2

 

[rufus]

Literal and Literal!!

Rufus 0)

 

[LadyEagle]

I am just not a Larkinist. Sheeagle is. He was a radical dispensationalist.

Amen!