Is this what Limited Atonement means?

WELL SAID bbmember!

Forget about Calvin and Arminius! All they do is bring contention and division to the body of Christ!

 

Hello bbmember.

Nice to meet you.

When my six year old son heard that Jesus could produce fish sandwiches out of thin air he remarked that He must be a magician then. That I thought was quite good reasoning from a six year old! Was the feeding of the crowds magic? Maybe for the crowd!

Imputes you mean? Imputes righteousness you mean?

Sinful mankind do you mean? Is He obligated to this 'needy' mankind?

This does not ring a bell with me. I always thought we were saved at God's good pleasure. He bases His choice on His own will. For He said to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy." Romans 9:15.

Sola scripture is a Calvinist belief. Do you accept scripture alone? I know of no Calvinist who would claim anything if it was not in scripture. Part of our great heritage. A burning passion one might say.
What's RN/Paralegal? Are you into law?

johnp.

 

Hi rlvaughn;

If a nation is lost and on the road to destruction and God offers them a choice. What would make one think that a single individual wouldn't have the same choice?.
If man didn't have the ability to trun from his own sin and choose life then why did God plead with the israelites to trun from there evil ways;
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

God told them earlier in chapter 18 to make them selves a new heart and a new spirit and turn.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Can a man be regenerated and not converted? I don't believe so. Even if we were regenerated first there could be no way we wouldn't be converted as well. Yet the night that Christ was arrested Peter had not been converted yet he had faith that Christ prayed for;
Luk 22:31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:
Luk 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Just to show the time of this statement Peter replied;

Luk 22:33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.
Luk 22:34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

All things are possible with God. There is literally nothing He can't do Yet this doesn't mean that He has to do everthing.

Yes God does know the end from the beginning He would know that regardless of whether or not, (man without being regenerated), chose one way or the other. Because he does know doesn't mean man cannot choose to follow Christ. It doesn't mean that your future is written in stone and will happen regardless. God is still the potter and can remold you. Because God created men for righteousness His plan for man has always been for man to succeed to Salvation. If man does meet His destiny it's mans own fault. We are not predestined to destruction. The Bible doesn't say this at all.

Maybe I should have said "It seems to me" Your right actually both sides of this issue has it's problems. In truth No one can understand all the things of God.

I believe Romans 3:10 -17 is what a sinner says in His heart because Paul is quoting Psalm 14 and Psalm 53. Many argue that the first verse is merely what a fool says or sinner but the rest is a view of the natural man. But no where in the psalm is this pointed out. The beginning states.
Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

To try and devide this into what the fool said and what natural man is. Is only imagination. Any one with any reading skills at all would know that the whole passage is about what the fool has said in his heart.
In Romans 3;
If Paul used this quote to support something different, then I would have to doubt Paul. I don't doubt Paul, but the Calvinist interpretation. No where in that passage is it stated that this is unsaved man. Yes it says we are all sinners there is no difference between Jew or Greek. Yet that still doesn't reach the stretch that Calvinism places on this passage.
You say "man cannot seek God" I disagree because the knowledge of God is written on mans heart,

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

just as is the Law. Man obeys the Law and man seeks God.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us all;
Mike

 

God's dealings with nations as nations is not an individual call to salvation. In Nineveh it seems that the people as a whole repented and believed God. Sometimes, as in the five-city confederacy of Sodom, Gomorrah, Admah, Zeboim, and Bela, (Gen. 18:16ff) the presence of a few believers or righteous individuals can (or at least could have) stay judgment. All situations are not the same. While individuals can and do change because of God's broader dealings, as with a nation for example, nevertheless to read eternal salvation to God and from Hell into a national deliverance from chaos, judgment and destruction can be bad interpretation.

I'm not sure I follow you. Do you mean that, at the time of Luke 22, that Peter was neither regenerated nor converted? Would he have been bound for Hell?

I don't think the fact that God "knows the end from the beginning" speaks directly to the question of whether salvation is offered to all or predestinated for some. I just meant that to speak to your description of God "changing His mind". When God deals conditionally (If you..then I..) we may tend to view it as changing His mind in the same way we do. That cannot be the same if He really knows the end from the beginning.

One of the reasons I mentioned your next to last post as interesting is this interpretation. It is one I haven't run across before. I don't dismiss it for that reason, but I don't see in it what you see. I can't see how that interpretation fits Paul's use of it for making a point in Romans 3. But also, if this (Ps. 14 & Ps. 53) "whole passage is about what the fool has said in his heart", then you have the atheist (who doesn't believe there is a God) saying first of all that God looked down from heaven, that "God is in the generation of the righteous", and finally that "Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad." Even if your interpretation were correct, it does not contradict the ideas of depravity and man's inability, and there is still the problem of other verses, such as John 6:44. Even if you believe that all men are drawn, the fact remains that something must happen before any man can come to Christ - the Father must draw him.

The point here is that the creation speaks clearly to all that there is a God, and no one has an excuse for not believing in God from that respect. Yet, Jesus still says man cannot come to Him except the Father draw him.

 

Hi rlvaughn;

Maybe not but why would man have the ability to turn from his sin with out being regenerated? Calvinism tells us we can't do that. Not to mention they were going to die if they didn't turn or repent.

My point is that none of the disciples were saved yet the Holy Spirit hadn't come to them yet. Peter had been with Christ for 3 years at least and He denied Christ;
Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
Is this enough to convince you that Peter was on his way to hell when he denied Jesus. To deny means to reject if you're rejected by God your lost. Not only this but why would Christ have to pray for Peters faith to fail not if he had been regenerated so that he could have saving faith? This passages proves the disciples were not saved before they were regenerated.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
The word repented means God changed His mind There is no way around that fact as far as I can see.

Well lets say your right.
How do you get the inability out of this passage when there is nothing saying man lost his ability.
You presented this verse;

("1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.")

To back you up on mans lost ability. But this verse isn't talking about the gospel that is preached. This is what this verse is talking about;
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

The deeper things of God aren't known by young Christians because it takes time, Prayer, and study, to know them. Yet they are saved.

The drawing does happen to all because Christ was lifted up.
Can you show me with scripture where it says that something must happen to man. Why does something have to happen to man. You haven't proven that man needs anything to happen first. Romans 3 doesn't say something has to happen. Jn. 6:44 doesn't say it either because all men are drawn;
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
To deny that all men are drawn is denying scripture is truth.

And scripture says that all men are drawn.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hi, Mike. I've enjoyed discussing this with you, and appreciate the spirit of it. I must say that I began with several assumptions about what you believe, but have found that I was incorrect in assuming that you believe the same as most "non-Calvinists" that I know. So I have found this enlightening. After tonight I probably won't be posting on the BB very much for awhile, so I'm going to try to wrap up with some final commments, but will try to check back in case you have any questions for me.

Self-preservation might easily cause one to outwardly repent. We see this type of outward "not-of-the-heart" repentance in the Scriptures and in our experiences with others.

I can't agree that none of the disciples were saved yet. Jesus had previously clearly stated that God the Father, not flesh and blood, had revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God (Matthew 16). Matt. 10:33 does not indicate to me that Peter was on his way to hell when he denied Jesus. If you apply an absolute, without comparing other Scriptures, it would mean he will ultimately be denied before the Father and perish eternally in Hell, because whosoever shall deny Jesus before men (Peter did this), him will Jesus also deny before the Father which is in heaven (which Jesus will still have to do). But the Bible also says, "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. (II Tim. 2:12,13)." Jesus says that all the disciples, except Judas, were clean (Jn 13:10,11); that they would follow him (later) to where He goes (Heaven) (Jn 13:36); that He was in them (Jn 17:23); and consistently presents all as His, except on who has a devil (e.g. (Jn 6:70,71). Your statement that "this passage proves the disciples were not saved before they were regenerated" makes me wonder if I understand how you are using the word "regenerated" and when you think it took place.

I have no disagreement with Genesis 6:6, only with the human meaning applied to God. God did repent, but did not repent in the same way man repents; He does deal conditionally with mankind, but He doesn't "change His mind" as if He didn't know what was going to take place or what He purposed or as if He doesn't understand.

I don't remember presenting 1 Cor. 2:14 (But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned) in any of my posts, but I certainly agree with it. I can't agree that natural man refers to the "young Christians". Where does it say that?

Again I would reiterate that John 6:44 stands even if you believe that all men are drawn. What does CANNOT COME mean? That he can come? No - that he cannot come. So how do some men come? He can't EXCEPT the Father draw him. Would any come if the Father didn't draw? No, no man can come except...

John 6:44-45 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. Jesus further says that all those that come are taught of God. If every man that hears and learns of the Father comes to Jesus, then evidently either we have universal salvation (every person who ever lives) or specific redemption.

Thanks. Have a great weekend.