Is this why Jesus died?

[Marcia]

It seems that the reason for Jesus' death on the cross is getting watered down or changed. Certainly, the real reason is being avoided or disregarded.

Donald Miller, one of the Emerging Church spokespeople and authors (Blue Like Jazz), gave the closing prayer at the Democratic Convention (this is NOT a political thread so please, no political comments here or I would have posted this in Politics).

You can see the prayer here:
http://www.donaldmillerwords.com/


Here is how he closed:

I make these requests in the name of your son, Jesus, who gave his own life against the forces of injustice.

This is one of the problems I see with some of the Emerging spokespeople. Sure, Satan is behind injustice, but is this why Jesus died?

If you had the chance to say why Jesus died in front of national TV and all those people, would you have said that? What would you say?

Also, comments on the prayer itself welcome.

 

[Dale-c]

Yes it was for injustice.
But not injustice merely against our fellow man but injustice against God directly.
All injustice is of course a sin against God first and foremost.
BUt more importantly He died to ransom the souls of those whom the Father had given him.

 

[Tom Butler]

There was injustice on the part of Jesus' enemies who crucified them. But Jesus did not die against the forces of injustice. He died for sinners, who deserve eternal separation from God. He died for people just like the perpetrators of injustice.

Jesus railed against injustice during his life and ministry. He railed against it in his preaching. But not in his death.

 

[JustChristian]

It seems that the reason for Jesus' death on the cross is getting watered down or changed. Certainly, the real reason is being avoided or disregarded.

Donald Miller, one of the Emerging Church spokespeople and authors (Blue Like Jazz), gave the closing prayer at the Democratic Convention (this is NOT a political thread so please, no political comments here or I would have posted this in Politics).

You can see the prayer here:
http://www.donaldmillerwords.com/


Here is how he closed:


This is one of the problems I see with some of the Emerging spokespeople. Sure, Satan is behind injustice, but is this why Jesus died?

If you had the chance to say why Jesus died in front of national TV and all those people, would you have said that? What would you say?

Also, comments on the prayer itself welcome.

Every time you pray in the name of Jesus do you fully define the reason behind His death and resurrection?

 

[nunatak]

If you had the chance to say why Jesus died in front of national TV and all those people, would you have said that? What would you say?

Also, comments on the prayer itself welcome.

I thought the prayer was an appropriate social gospel prayer.

If I could have been in his place (which I couldn't since I wouldn't pray a social gospel prayer) the following might be a good invocation:

"For I pray in Christ's name, who died for our sins and rose the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. Amen."

 

[Marcia]

Every time you pray in the name of Jesus do you fully define the reason behind His death and resurrection?

1) No, but I would not say this.

2) In this situation, I would say something along the lines of what nunatak said. What an opportunity to give the gospel in just the closing of the prayer! People have been saved hearing very short statements. I know of a man who was saved hearing "Behold, the Lamb of God."

 

[Dale-c]

This prayer basically makes Jesus into a martyr rather than a savior.

 

[TCGreek]

I know you cautioned against turning this thread into a political one, but here's my impression:

He was on a political platform and felt he had to politicize the Gospel.

 

[Marcia]

I know you cautioned against turning this thread into a political one, but here's my impression:

He was on a political platform and felt he had to politicize the Gospel.

Could be, except I think he is like that anyway. In other words, I think he believes what he said.

This is one of the hallmarks of many of the emerging leaders - they are going to the social gospel, or have already gone there.

 

[Amy.G]

Jesus died because "God so loved the world". He died in my place, for my sin, when I did not deserve His grace or mercy. :godisgood:


I get so tired of people who claim to be Christians, but when given a platform, do not proclaim Christ, but rather dance around the truth for fear of offending someone. It's a shame they do not fear offending God.

 

[John Toppass]

Jesus died for "whosoever"!! I am included in whosoever, you are included in whosoever, we are included in whosoever, all of mankind is whosoever. The fact that we have sinned, (and all whosoevers' have) makes anything else we do, no matter how good, not enough to get us into the Kingdom of Heaven. Jesus died so that whosoever believes on Him shall have everlasting life.

The mercy given us by God through the death of His Son, Jesus Christ is the only way we can receive salvation. Stating this anyway less is being ashamed of Jesus before men.

I would have ended the prayer, "I pray this in the name of Jesus Christ your most perfect Son, who died then rose again for all our sins and our only way to Your Kingdom of Heaven." Amen

In the content of the prayer I would have prayed for the children this nation allows to be murdered before birth, also for our children who are not allowed to pray in schools they must attend. I am sure I would ask God to "unite this nation under God" once more.

But, something tells me this would have made me ineligible to pray before that group.

 

[rdwhite]

I know you cautioned against turning this thread into a political one, but here's my impression:

He was on a political platform and felt he had to politicize the Gospel.

I imagine his prayer/speech was written for him, I doubt they would allow him to ad lib a prayer.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I make these requests in the name of your son, Jesus, who gave his own life against the forces of injustice.

Could he have been making reference to Romans 8:31-38?

NASB: Romans 8:31-38

What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all
...
Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ?
...
For I am convinced that neither death,nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[Marcia]

I imagine his prayer/speech was written for him, I doubt they would allow him to ad lib a prayer.

According to him, he prepared it, he didn't ad lib it.


http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctpolitics/2008/08/a_sneak_peak_at.html

 

[Marcia]

Could he have been making reference to Romans 8:31-38?

I don't see the connection. Jesus did not die "to fight the forces of injustice," but to pay the penalty of sin.

"To fight the forces of injustice" plays well to an audience big on social justice but who does not believe Jesus is the only way to heaven or that everyone needs Jesus. To pray that Jesus died to pay the penalty for sins or to provide forgiveness for sins to those who believe would be extremely unpopular at that convention.

It's a way to water down - or one might say actually change - why Jesus died.

I am not sure if Miller is a universalist, but some of the emerging people are. They would say something like this because Jesus to them is a Che Guavara Jesus.

 

[TCGreek]

I imagine his prayer/speech was written for him, I doubt they would allow him to ad lib a prayer.

Then his theology allowed him to go along. What else can I say !

 

[Marcia]

TC Greek, look at my response to rdwhite above. Miller prepared the prayer.

Miller is one of the emerging church leaders; this is an area Chiristians need to become more aware of because the influence of this group is on teens and young adults. They don't care about people over 30 or 35 so sadly, most Christians are totally oblivious to this. I know believers who have never heard of Rob Bell's Velvet Elvis, Don Miller's Blue Like Jazz, and other books that are influencing tens of thousands of young people.

These books do point out some failings and problems of the evangelical church, but their solution is to reinvent Christianity along unorthodox lines. Many of them disavow the bible as God's word, some are inclusivists, some are universalists, some are panentheists, some endorse New Agers.

This is not a fringe group; they are already in the mainstream of influence on young people.

 

[TCGreek]

TC Greek, look at my response to rdwhite above. Miller prepared the prayer.

Miller is one of the emerging church leaders; this is an area Chiristians need to become more aware of because the influence of this group is on teens and young adults. They don't care about people over 30 or 35 so sadly, most Christians are totally oblivious to this. I know believers who have never heard of Rob Bell's Velvet Elvis, Don Miller's Blue Like Jazz, and other books that are influencing tens of thousands of young people.

These books do point out some failings and problems of the evangelical church, but their solution is to reinvent Christianity along unorthodox lines. Many of them disavow the bible as God's word, some are inclusivists, some are universalists, some are panentheists, some endorse New Agers.

This is not a fringe group; they are already in the mainstream of influence on young people.

Marcia, I quite aware of the Emerging/Emergent community. I've read a few of McLaren's work.

Yes, quite unorthodox.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I don't see the connection. Jesus did not die "to fight the forces of injustice," but to pay the penalty of sin.

"To fight the forces of injustice" plays well to an audience big on social justice but who does not believe Jesus is the only way to heaven or that everyone needs Jesus. To pray that Jesus died to pay the penalty for sins or to provide forgiveness for sins to those who believe would be extremely unpopular at that convention.

It's a way to water down - or one might say actually change - why Jesus died.

I am not sure if Miller is a universalist, but some of the emerging people are. They would say something like this because Jesus to them is a Che Guavara Jesus.

While we emphasize the primary reason for Christ died that was to die for the forgiveness of our sins, there are also many secondary reasons. In the Romans passage I quoted, Paul is saying that Christ and His death also brings us closer to God and defeats those things that separate us from him. Things he lists include principalities and powers which include the forces of injustice.

I grant that this is not a very direct interpretation and may not have been what Miller was talking about. I would also be surprised if Miller felt that the forgiveness of our sins was not the reason Christ died. That doesn't nullify other reasons he died.

 

[Marcia]

While we emphasize the primary reason for Christ died that was to die for the forgiveness of our sins, there are also many secondary reasons. In the Romans passage I quoted, Paul is saying that Christ and His death also brings us closer to God and defeats those things that separate us from him. Things he lists include principalities and powers which include the forces of injustice.

I see what you are saying but I would contend that being brought near to God is a result of being saved from the penalty of death, not another reason for the atonement. The primary purpose of the atonement is to save us from the penalty of death; that in turn reconciles us to God, and thus we are brought near to Him. Being brought near to God is part of or is a result of the atonement.

I grant that this is not a very direct interpretation and may not have been what Miller was talking about. I would also be surprised if Miller felt that the forgiveness of our sins was not the reason Christ died. That doesn't nullify other reasons he died

But why give a secondary reason when one has a national tv audience - one of the largest for a political conventino (I think 80 million viewers or something like that), instead the THE reason for the death of Christ? My own view is that Miller has bought into or wants to appear he supports the Che Guavara Jesus, as I call him. This is the Jesus of many of the emerging "conversation" spokespeople/authors/leaders.