Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Where are we told to give sacrificially? I read that obedience is better than sacrifice. I read that every man is to give as he purposes in his own heart to give. I read where we are to give cheerfully.
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Is Tithing For Today?
- Thread starter Jedi Knight
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Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Archangel, I scanned over that article. I quote part of it...
Tithing is a set amount, (10%) generosity is not.DA Carson said:
Methinks that those that preach the loudest on tithing and 'sacrificial giving' may also be those whose livelihoods and/or standard of living depends upon the flock's tithing or 'sacrificial giving'.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Agreed. I have never argued that we are "required" to give only 10%. In fact, when you study the Old Testament in depth, we see the Israelites were required to give far more than 10%--some 20-25% in most cases.
As for "sacrificial giving" read 2 Corinthians 8:1-15.
Generally speaking, most (but not all) of people who are making arguments against Tithing are looking for an excuse to give a mere pittance to their local congregations. This is something the principles of giving in the New Testament simply will not allow.
Here are two links (both .pdf) by Dr. Andreas Köstenberger AND David Croteau. Note particularly the second link and go to p. 21 for the "Summary Chart."
'Will a Man Rob God' (Malachi 3:8): A Study of Tithing in the Old and New Testaments
Reconstructing a Biblical Model for Giving: A Discussion of Relevant Systematic Issues and New Testament Principles
Happy reading!
Blessings,
The Archangel
Like somebody said: tithing is fixed, generosity is not.
I can earn a thousand dollars over my fixed thousand dollar a month, and give two hundred dollars, and feel I've done my part.
on the other hand, I may have made only a dollar for the whole month and give it all away, and isn't that the whole point of Jesus' example of the widow and her mite ?
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
See previous post.
But, your appeal to "obedience being better than sacrifice" is out of line in this discussion. The context of that phrase is the outright disobedience of King Saul. He is trying to justify his sinful rebellion by saying he saved the animals (which he was supposed to destroy completely) in order to sacrifice them to the LORD.
He was not to take spoils (because they were devoted to destruction). The animals to be destroyed already had been claimed by God. The destruction of them was, in an informal sense, a sacrifice. In this case, Saul neglected to realize that obedience was itself sacrifice.
Read 1 Samuel 15
The Archangel
The opening of the letter (1:1-5) was addressed to the nation. The nation had gone astray, but the letter zeroes in on the priests as the cause for leading the people to do wrong. The priests were being partial in the law (2:9) and caused many to stumble at the law (2:8). They corrupted "the covenant of Levi" (2:8).
Mal 1:6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name? [question #1]
Mal 1:7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? [question #2] In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
Mal 1:8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor [the person filling Nehemiah's role as Persian governor in his absence]; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 1:9 And now, I pray you, beseech God that he will be gracious unto us: this hath been by your means: will he regard your persons? saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 1:10 Who is there even among you that would shut the doors for nought? neither do ye kindle fire on mine altar for nought. I have no pleasure in you, saith the LORD of hosts, neither will I accept an offering at your hand.
Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 1:12 But ye have profaned it, in that ye say, The table of the LORD is polluted; and the fruit thereof, even his meat, is contemptible.
Mal 1:13 Ye said also, Behold, what a weariness is it! and ye have snuffed at it, saith the LORD of hosts; and ye brought that which was torn [possibly stolen; see every other occurrence of gâzal], and the lame, and the sick; thus ye brought an offering: should I accept this of your hand? saith the LORD.
Mal 1:14 But cursed be the deceiver, which hath in his flock a male, and voweth, and sacrificeth unto the Lord a corrupt thing: for I am a great King, saith the LORD of hosts, and my name is dreadful among the heathen.
God was cursing the priests because they were profaning the altar of the Temple by offering blemished things contrary to the Law. God asked if the governor would accept these blemished things as gifts. Obviously neither should He. The priests were robbing God in offerings by breaking the sacrificial Laws. This is exactly what is meant in 3:8 when God said that they were robbing God in offerings. He pronounces a curse on the priests in 1:14, 2:2, and 3:9.
The lashing at the priests continues:
Mal 2:1 And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.
Mal 2:2 If ye will not hear, and if ye will not lay it to heart, to give glory unto my name, saith the LORD of hosts, I will even send a curse upon you, and I will curse your blessings: yea, I have cursed them already, because ye do not lay it to heart.
Mal 2:3 Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it.
Mal 2:4 And ye shall know that I have sent this commandment unto you, that my covenant might be with Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:5 My covenant was with him of life and peace; and I gave them to him for the fear wherewith he feared me, and was afraid before my name.
Mal 2:6 The law of truth was in his mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity, and did turn many away from iniquity.
Mal 2:7 For the priest's lips should keep knowledge, and they should seek the law at his mouth: for he is the messenger of the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 2:9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us? why do we deal treacherously every man against his brother, by profaning the covenant of our fathers? [the covenant of Levi]
The recipients thus far are still the priests. There has been a lot of cursing involved here. The priests led the people astray in the same way that the priests did not follow the sacrificial code.
Without looking at the context, some mistakenly do not see that the next verses are still directed to the priests.
Mal 2:11 Judah [the divided portion of Israel that was in exile from Persia] hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem [the city where the Temple was]; for Judah hath profaned the holiness of the LORD which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god. [see Nehemiah 13:23-30; especiall 28-30. The priests were responsible]
Neh 13:28 And one of the sons of Joiada, the son of Eliashib the high priest, was son in law to Sanballat the Horonite: therefore I chased him from me.
Neh 13:29 Remember them, O my God, because they have defiled the priesthood, and the covenant of the priesthood, and of the Levites. [see "the covenant of Levi" in Malachi]
Neh 13:30 Thus cleansed I them from all strangers, and appointed the wards of the priests and the Levites, every one in his business;
The actions of the priests introduced this sin of intermarrying with pagans. The priests were especially culpable because they were only permitted to marry other Levites.
Mal 2:12 The LORD will cut off the man that doeth this, the master and the scholar, [priests and lawyers] out of the tabernacles of Jacob, and him that offereth an offering unto the LORD of hosts. [This is parallelism, indicating that the doers of these actions were the same. Only priests were the ones that offered the offerings because only they had legal access to the altar of the tabernacle]
Mal 2:13 And this have ye done again [indicating that the priests, still the recipients, were the ones committing the abomination of intermarrying], covering the altar of the LORD with tears, with weeping, and with crying out, insomuch that he regardeth not the offering any more, or receiveth it with good will at your hand. [God also did not regard the offering because it was offered from a position of sinful disregard]
Mal 2:14 Yet ye say, Wherefore? [question #3] Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.
Mal 2:15 And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.
Mal 2:16 For the LORD, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the LORD of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.
Mal 2:17 Ye have wearied the LORD with your words. [Who has been giving the words so far? The priests!] Yet ye say, Wherein have we wearied him? [question #4] When ye say, Every one that doeth evil is good in the sight of the LORD, and he delighteth in them; or, Where is the God of judgment? [question #5]
Still the priests. The priests led the people to do wrong by their actions. God disregarded their priestly sacrifices because of their abominations. All the questions are from the priests and the replies from God are to the priests.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
I'm sorry, but you are hopelessly wrong here--probably because the KJV which you are using is not understanding the overwhelming force of the Hebrew.
The KJV: Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation
The Israelites were under God's curse for their disobedience. In fact, in Hebrew, it is not "a curse." Rather, the Hebrew uses the definite article so it is better translated as "the curse." (The ESV also misses this). What curse? This one: Deuteronomy 28:15 and following. Deuteronomy 28 is the "blessings" and "curses" that are part of any covenant between a Suzerain (God) and a Vassal (the Israelites). "The curse" is for the disobedience of the nation, not the Levites only, just as "the blessing" would have been for the entire nation as well.
The "whole nation" part of the verse is a tag-on to the end. It refers to the "you," which is plural and is intended to clarify who is robing God." "Whole nation" comes from two words--"goy" (nation) and "col" (all). "Goy" is usually used of nations other than Israel (usually "Ami" is used of Israel). However, when God rebukes Israel, He often uses "goy" as an embarrassing and in-their-face reminder that they are not acting as God's chosen people.
So, in this two-word phrase added to the end of verse 9, it is clear the KJV translation is quite misleading. The whole nation is robing God, it is not just one group.
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me [John the Baptist]: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant [Jesus], whom ye delight in [They thought they would delight in the Messiah, but the One Who came was not whom they expected]: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. [Hmm. This still seems to be all about the priests and their poor offerings in the Temple.]
Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem [i.e. the Temple] be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Sounds like the target is still the priests, sacrifices, and Temple worship.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. [priests still according to the context]
Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. [see 2:8-9] Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? [question #6]
The priests are still asking questions and God is still responding to the priests.
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me [Who? Priests!]. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? [question #7] In tithes [Nehemiah 13:4-14] and offerings [Malachi 1:6-14, 2:13, 3:3-4].
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse [1:14, 2:1-2]: for ye [priests] have robbed me, even this whole nation [of you priests; see Numbers 26. There were several priestly cities and apparently all the priests were involved in this wickedness].
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes [or the "whole tithes"--the third-year heap tithes] into the storehouse [they were not in the storehouse because the priests were robbing them from the Levites and feeding them to Tobiah, causing the rotation of Levite families trying to serve in the Temple to have to flee back to the fields where they farmed. See Nehemiah 13:10-11], that there may be meat in mine house ["meat" as in food. Because the priests were stealing the meat from the storehouse; the meat, therefore, was no longer in the storehouse], and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven [rain, see Genesis 7:11-12], and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. [They would no longer face the famines that were pronounced in Deuteronomy 28:15-68. They would begin to receive so much food in their harvests that they would not have enough room to store it all.]
Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer [insects and things that eat crops] for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.
The Law was simple: either the nation followed the Law and was blessed above all, or they did not and were cursed above all. The priests misled the people to do evil. They also were robbing tithes from the Levites.
The storehouse were chambers built in the Temple to house excess food from the "year of tithing" (the third year). The practice became to bring all these instead of using local community bins for the poor.
Mal 3:13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. [Who's words have we been seeing so far? The priests'!] Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee? [question #8]
Mal 3:14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts? [question #9]
Mal 3:15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son [see 1:6] that serveth him.
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Still the priests!
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness. [Hmm. This still seems to be all about the priests and their poor offerings in the Temple.]
Mal 3:4 Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem [i.e. the Temple] be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years.
Mal 3:5 And I will come near to you to judgment; and I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, and against the adulterers, and against false swearers, and against those that oppress the hireling in his wages, the widow, and the fatherless, and that turn aside the stranger from his right, and fear not me, saith the LORD of hosts.
Sounds like the target is still the priests, sacrifices, and Temple worship.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. [priests still according to the context]
Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept them. [see 2:8-9] Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return? [question #6]
The priests are still asking questions and God is still responding to the priests.
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me [Who? Priests!]. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? [question #7] In tithes [Nehemiah 13:4-14] and offerings [Malachi 1:6-14, 2:13, 3:3-4].
Mal 3:9 Ye are cursed with a curse [1:14, 2:1-2]: for ye [priests] have robbed me, even this whole nation [of you priests; see Numbers 26. There were several priestly cities and apparently all the priests were involved in this wickedness].
Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes [or the "whole tithes"--the third-year heap tithes] into the storehouse [they were not in the storehouse because the priests were robbing them from the Levites and feeding them to Tobiah, causing the rotation of Levite families trying to serve in the Temple to have to flee back to the fields where they farmed. See Nehemiah 13:10-11], that there may be meat in mine house ["meat" as in food. Because the priests were stealing the meat from the storehouse; the meat, therefore, was no longer in the storehouse], and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven [rain, see Genesis 7:11-12], and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it. [They would no longer face the famines that were pronounced in Deuteronomy 28:15-68. They would begin to receive so much food in their harvests that they would not have enough room to store it all.]
Mal 3:11 And I will rebuke the devourer [insects and things that eat crops] for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:12 And all nations shall call you blessed: for ye shall be a delightsome land, saith the LORD of hosts.
The Law was simple: either the nation followed the Law and was blessed above all, or they did not and were cursed above all. The priests misled the people to do evil. They also were robbing tithes from the Levites.
The storehouse were chambers built in the Temple to house excess food from the "year of tithing" (the third year). The practice became to bring all these instead of using local community bins for the poor.
Mal 3:13 Your words have been stout against me, saith the LORD. [Who's words have we been seeing so far? The priests'!] Yet ye say, What have we spoken so much against thee? [question #8]
Mal 3:14 Ye have said, It is vain to serve God: and what profit is it that we have kept his ordinance, and that we have walked mournfully before the LORD of hosts? [question #9]
Mal 3:15 And now we call the proud happy; yea, they that work wickedness are set up; yea, they that tempt God are even delivered.
Mal 3:16 Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Mal 3:17 And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son [see 1:6] that serveth him.
Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.
Still the priests!
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
You are not correct. The text of chapter 3 is plain; it is not the priests in view. V. 9 says "the whole nation" and, as I explained here the phrase leaves no doubt that the entire nation is in view.
The Archangel
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
Not with the reference to "Judah." Judah would have included the priests, but it is not only the priests.
Nope. Notice "Sons of Jacob." That is referring to the entire nation. If, as you suggest, the Levites are the only ones being addressed, we'd have expected "Sons of Levi."
In the "old days" the entire nation was disobedient, not only Levites. In fact, the entire history of Israel proves-out that the entire nation (not only its priests) were willfully and woefully disobedient to the LORD.
Nope. "The whole nation" is referring to Israel as a whole, not the priestly caste.
The Archangel
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
Archangel... Are you a pastor trying to justify the receiving of tithes of money?
According to the Word of God, it was only the Levites who were authorized God's tithe. If one is not a Levite, I see no justification for him to receive tithes of his congregation.
And still I see no answer to why the 'tither' is not given back part of what he puts in the offering plate each Sunday.
According to the Word of God, it was only the Levites who were authorized God's tithe. If one is not a Levite, I see no justification for him to receive tithes of his congregation.
And still I see no answer to why the 'tither' is not given back part of what he puts in the offering plate each Sunday.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
New Testament giving is not a "tithe." It is supposed to be greater than a tithe--at least in the sacrificial nature of New Testament giving.
Yes, I am a pastor. No I don't have to justify giving. Giving is expected in the New Testament and it is expected to be sacrificial giving.
The Archangel
Do you qualify? Do you really know one person in America like that? Ask any African Christian if Americans give sacrificially while they turn on their TV, drive to church, and turn on their air conditioner. Ask the gypsy churches in Romania that same question.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
My wife and I give sacrificially, yes. It is not as sacrificial as others and it is not as sacrificial as we'd like. We make less than $50,000 combined and we have two kids. We haven't had a vacation since our honeymoon 5 years ago. In many cases, we live at the grace of other Christians (like our land-lady, herself a pastor's wife, that is renting us our house at a greatly reduced rate). My first year pastoring the church I now serve, I took no retirement and let many of my given allowances go unspent so that the church would not be burdened by my salary (we are in better financial shape now, however...not much better, though).
So, while we have been blessed far above others, we are not filthy-rich and we do sacrifice so that we can give.
Generally speaking, however, many (actually, the vast majority) of Americans, myself included, have no clue as to the sacrificial giving of others in so-called third-world countries. Personally, I think third-world Christians generally tend to be much better Christians than American Christians. As John Piper says, American Christians live in the 'Disneyland' of the universe and we don't have a grip on the plight and sacrifice of other Christians outside the USA.
But, that doesn't change the fact that the New Testament expects Christians to give to their local church and it expects them to give sacrificially.
The Archangel
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
My wife and I make less than 16,000 a year combined. We give what we are able to give. We do not give to the point that the household needs are not met. If any provide not for his own house, he is worse than an infidel.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
And did you think I was suggesting that you ignore your own household? If we follow the principle of sacrificial giving, what you give--even though it is a lesser percentage--is perhaps more sacrificial than a family earning a combined $75,000.
I'll reiterate my point: The so-called "tithe" is a good place to start and it's a good target to reach. The principle, however, of sacrificial giving tells us to give in an ever-increasing manner (without ignoring the needs of our own household, of course).
The Archangel
Steadfast Fred
Active Member
The so-called "tithe" is not a good place to start, because it is a set amount. Generosity is not a set amount.
When I hear tithing messages, I cringe... especially when it is inferred that all Believers were to tithe and that they are to tithe of their money. Scripture nowhere teaches these claims.
I have also been told by pastors, (even my own) that I am supposed to tithe and that tithe is supposed to be off of the gross income. Studying the tithe, it is clear it was not off the top. The firstfruits were off the top, the tithe was afterward.
Yes, my pastor did indeed tell me during a time of especially hard financial struggle that I was to tithe. I almost left the Church, but the Spirit would not let me as there are no other Churches within driving distance that teach from the KJV and the KJV is what I prefer because that is what I grew up on and I am fed and led by the Spirit when I read the KJV.
But that's another thread.
The point is, as I have pointed out in the past and as AresMan also pointed out, God's tithe was never money, so how can one call any amount of money 'tithe'?
I also think if a pastor is going to teach that his congregation is to tithe, that he should at least live as God says the receiver of the tithe should live.... neither he, nor the workers of the Church, (treasurers, deacons, ushers, etc.) should own property of their own. Nor should they expect the tithe week in and week out from the same people. God's tithe was not given by the same people week in and week out.
Those that tithe should be given part of that tithe back each service that they place a tithe in the plate. (The Israelites ate of their tithe with the Levites)
Pastors seem to live by a different standard than the congregation. They teach that the congregation must obey the Bible when it comes to tithing, but they themselves do not meet the requirements set forth by God to receive the tithe... yet they receive it anyway.
I believe they will have to answer to God for this.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
But you are confusing "tithing" in the Old Testament with generous giving in the New Testament. Certainly in the New Testament, money is what is given--and an abundance was joyfully given even from the destitute.
Pastors should only teach the tithe as a principle of generous giving, not as a legal requirement. But pastors should challenge people in their congregations to give sacrificially and to increase their sacrificial giving.
Also, I think you are confusing the reason of the tithe/offering system of the Old Testament. Certainly it supported the Levites. But the principle of giving was not to support the Levites; the principle of giving was to demonstrate faith in God--that He would provide.
I hope you read the links that I posted; I think they'll help your understanding greatly.
Blessings,
The Archangel