Is to be Cleansed or Free From All Sin, Sin?

[DHK]

. Repenting is being sorry for your sins and desire to stop those sins.

What you have defined is reformation, not repentance. You have been corrected many times but refuse to be taught. Your definition is wrong. Reformation is not repentance. An alcoholic, waking up in the morning with a headache is sorry for what he had done and said the previous morning. He may express genuine sorrow. He may even say he won't do it again. Even if he doesn't do it again, that is reformation, exactly as you described it. It is not repentance. It doesn't save.

Are you one of the people here that claims we do not have to be sorry for our sins before Jesus saves us?

Sorry for sins doesn't save. It never did. It is not repentance.

If you say yes, then no wonder you have so much trouble understanding what I say.

It is like talking to a cult. They have one definition of salvation and you have another. You talk past each other because you define terms differently and are not on the same page. For example the COC, when he speaks of salvation will always speak of salvation as belief in Christ but including baptism. Salvation does not include baptism. So his definition is different than ours.

You do not understand things in the Bible, no wonder you do not understand things that I say. It is not an excuse though for you to accuse me of things that are not true.

Who is accusing who? When you define words according to your own whim and wish, you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say, and that is what you do.

 

[Moriah]

Back to the OP. "Is to be cleansed or Free from all sin, sin?" No, the Bible calls that glorification.

Give scriptures please.

However, to claim this BEFORE glorification is sin as that claim is explicitly dealt with in scripture and called self-deception and those who teach it are said to have NO TRUTH in them:
"If we say WE HAVE NO SIN we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."
Moriah and HP make this claim. Hence, they are self-decieved and there is "no truth" in them.

Show where HP or I have said what you say we said. Give exact quote and location, or else recant your rant.

Indeed, that is only the tip of the iceberg. For anyone to make such a claim requires ignorance of the Law of God, ignorance of the true gospel of Jesus Christ and ignorance of the essentials of salvaton.

You have convinced me that we believe in different Gods, since in your god’s view I have not truth in me.
You do not believe in the same God that I believe in. My God is the atoning sacrifice for my sins, and not only for mine but also for the sins of the whole world, see 1 John 2:2. Your god died for a select few. My God is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe, see 1 Timothy 4:10. Your god is not the Savior of all men.

They are ignorant of the Law of God because they neither understand or know what the Law defines as righteousness or sin. Righteousness is defined by the law of God as to be "even as" God's sinless state - never in need of repentance, never have sinned, never will sin - sinless in the absolute sense - this is the "GLORY" of God and Moriah and HP HAVE come short of that glory (Rom. 3:23 and do come short of that glory every single moment of their existence and that is precisely why Paul said "I AM" the cheif of sinners because those with any spirituallity see more of their own PERSONAL sinfulness the closer they walk with the Lord and more righteousness that belongs solely to him and obtain solely through faith in Him.

Paul did not stay the chief of sinners by continuing to sin. Could you give scripture that says what you say here? Could you give scripture that says, “Those with any spirituality see more of their own personal sinfulness the closer they walk with the Lord”? What you say here is the speech of one who continues to sin or how else could you say you see more of your own personal sinfulness the closer you walk with the Lord?

They are ignorant of the Biblical definition of sin as they define sin just like the Pharisees - restricted - so they can live above it. However, anything you say or do for the wrong motive is sin (1 Cor. 10:31) as the only right motive is the "glory of God." Living above sin requires loving both God and man with 100% of your whole being 100% of the time. Failure to resist wrong thinking is sin and there is WRONG/SINFUL thinking.

Show me where HP or I have said we believe in a restricted sin so we can live above it. Stop making up things and falsely accusing us.

They are ignorant of the true gospel of Jesus Christ. They reject Jesus Christ because they reject the absolute sufficiency of His own personal righteousness to have completely satisfied the righteousness demanded by the Law of God against sinners in behalf of believers but instead "they go about trying to establish their own righteousness have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

Quote us exactly where we say what you claim. Quote us or repent for making things up. From your explanation here, you believe that Christ died for the end of stop sinning, do I understand you correctly? You believe the law in which God nailed to the cross was the law of not sinning. Not sinning was not nailed to the cross. Doing right was not nailed to the cross. Jesus did not die so that you do not have to stop sinning! God nailed the written code with its regulations to the cross. That has to do with circumcision, and sin offerings. Show me one scripture that says we do not have to stop a sin. Show me one scripture. If you cannot show me one scripture that says we do not have to stop a sin, then repent for all the falseness you preached about the Word of God, and falseness you said about HP and me.

They are ignorant of the nature of true salvation as they reject justification by faith in the righteousness of Christ but turn salvation into the Phariseeic equivilency of self-righteousness by do good works. They pervert the Biblical doctrine of progressive sanctification by making it the substitute for justification by faith and they reject glorification by substituting progresssive sanctification in its place.

Is that what you would say to Jesus when he says, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him”?

In short, they must deceive themself about the whole Biblical doctrine of soteriology and therefore there can be "no truth" in them.

Again, you have finally convinced me that there is no way you believe in the God that I believe in.

 

[Moriah]

What you have defined is reformation, not repentance. You have been corrected many times but refuse to be taught. Your definition is wrong. Reformation is not repentance. An alcoholic, waking up in the morning with a headache is sorry for what he had done and said the previous morning. He may express genuine sorrow. He may even say he won't do it again. Even if he doesn't do it again, that is reformation, exactly as you described it. It is not repentance. It doesn't save.

Sorry for sins doesn't save. It never did. It is not repentance.

It is like talking to a cult. They have one definition of salvation and you have another. You talk past each other because you define terms differently and are not on the same page. For example the COC, when he speaks of salvation will always speak of salvation as belief in Christ but including baptism. Salvation does not include baptism. So his definition is different than ours.

Who is accusing who? When you define words according to your own whim and wish, you can make the Bible say anything you want it to say, and that is what you do.

Everything you say here to me, back at you, but more of it.

 

[DHK]

Everything you say here to me, back at you, but more of it.

What does that mean???

I give you explanations and correct your definitions. And that is the rude response I get? It doesn't even make sense.

 

[The Biblicist]

Give scriptures please.

Fine! Philippians 3:21; 1 Jn. 3:1-2; 1 Cor. 15:51-57; etc.

Show where HP or I have said what you say we said. Give exact quote and location, or else recant your rant.

You have convinced me that we believe in different Gods, since in your god’s view I have not truth in me.

If you are convinced that is the veiw of my God it must be the same God of the Scriptures because all I did was refer to 1 Jn. 1:8-10! Hence, your god must not be the source of the scriptures.

Paul did not stay the chief of sinners by continuing to sin.

Wrong again because Paul said this near the end of his ministry not when he was unconverted or just converted:

1 Tim. 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Do you realize that this was said to Timothy near the end of his life as almost all conservative scholars date it about 60-61 AD and Paul died just five years later. So he said this statement at the end of his life as a MATURE Christian using the present tense "AM"! Do you actually think you are more spiritual than Paul? Could you say these same words of yourself as Paul did of himself???

"Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I Moria AM chief"???

You can't say that can you? You wouldn't say that would you? Because your Christ is not the Christ of Paul??????????????

Could you give scripture that says, “Those with any spirituality see more of their own personal sinfulness the closer they walk with the Lord”? What you say here is the speech of one who continues to sin or how else could you say you see more of your own personal sinfulness the closer you walk with the Lord?

1 Timothy 1:15! Do you regard yourself more spiritual, more mature than Paul? Here is the progression of Paul:

1. Early Ministry - "AM LEAST of the apostles" - 1 Cor. 15:9

2. Prison ministry - "AM LEAST of all saints" - Eph. 3:8

3. Near end of ministry - "save sinners, of whom I AM CHIEF" - 1 Tim. 1:15


Do you see the progression in his sin sensitivity as he grew spiritually? At first he was the "least" of APOSTLES. Later he regarded himself "least" of ALL SAINTS. Late in life he regarded himself "chief" of SINNERS.

Do you see a progression of sin sensitvity in your spiritual growth?

Show me where HP or I have said we believe in a restricted sin so we can live above it. Stop making up things and falsely accusing us.

I have battled with both of you in regard to sin as evil THOUGHTS without evil actions following but still sin. I have battled with both of you in regard to the term "perfect" which is defined by Christ in regard to entrance into heaven (Mt. 5:20) as to be "EVEN AS" the Father in heaven - NEVER HAVE SINNED, NEVER WILL SIN, NEVER HAD ANY NEED OF FORGIVENESS OF SIN - that is what the Law demands to be justified as "righteousness" or "good" before God.

HP till this day cannot respond to the Lord's words to the Rich Young Ruler that there is "none good but ONE and that is God" which is found both in Luke and in Mark besides Matthew. Why, because both of you deny that fundementl truth about sin and sinlessness.

From your explanation here, you believe that Christ died for the end of stop sinning, do I understand you correctly?

No, you do not understand me correctly. Christ died for all my sins and paid for all my sins and forgave me all my sins. However, he did not IMMEDIATELY remove all my sins from my person and will not remove all sin from my person until the resurrection (Philip. 2:20-21; 1 Cor. 15:51-57; 1 Jn. 3:1-2).

You believe the law in which God nailed to the cross was the law of not sinning.

I believe that God nailed to the cross THE CONDEMNATION of the entire law to the cross and that we are under grace not law - any law of God for justification or for santification. The law was never given by God for justification or to give spiritual life but it was added to define sin and lead us away from self-effort righteousnesss for justification to faith in Christ's righteousness for us.

The law is still valid to point out and define sin. We are not saved by keeping the ten commandments but we are saved by faith in Christ and Spirit generated LOVE COMPELS us to keep His commandments not to be justified but because we are justified and love God.

Is that what you would say to Jesus when he says, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him”?

It says "IF anyone LOVES me" it does not say "IF anyone wants to go to heaven they must obey my teaching." Jesus is referring to experiential fellowship and blessing not justification and eternal life. HE IS TALKING TO THOSE ALREADY HIS DISCIPLES and those the HOly Spirit is already "WITH" as individuals - HE IS NOT TALKING TO THE LOST.

 

[Moriah]

Fine! Philippians 3:21; 1 Jn. 3:1-2; 1 Cor. 15:51-57; etc.

Wow. You use Philippians 3:21 to support your beliefs that you cannot stop sinning until you die and are given a new body. You neglect the scriptures right before that one, which says, “Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven, And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Does that sound like Paul is telling us what you are telling us, that Jesus expects us to keep sinning? NO!

You also use 1 John 3:1-2, that is about the type of immortal bodies the saved will receive…it is not about Jesus expecting us to sin until then. Did you not read what John says in the next scripture? John says, “Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
Biblicist, this is serious, you say Jesus expects us to keep being sinners, then you give 1 John 3:1-2 as proof that we can sin until we are given new bodies, yet those who are waiting for their new bodies PURIFY THEMSELVES, JUST AS HE IS PURE. That is NOT telling us that Jesus expects us to sin until he give us new bodies!

1 Corinthians 15:51-57 is also about receiving a new body, it is not about Jesus expecting us to continue to sin until then

You never did show where HP or I have said what you say we said. Give exact quote and location, or else recant your rant.

If you are convinced that is the veiw of my God it must be the same God of the Scriptures because all I did was refer to 1 Jn. 1:8-10! Hence, your god must not be the source of the scriptures.

No, you do not merely quote scripture; you also give explanations that are not in the scriptures. Just like you explaining that Jesus expects us to keep sinning until he gives us new bodies. That is NOWHERE in the scriptures! My God says those who are waiting for their new bodies purify themselves JUST AS JESUS IS PURE.

Wrong again because Paul said this near the end of his ministry not when he was unconverted or just converted:
1 Tim. 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
Do you realize that this was said to Timothy near the end of his life as almost all conservative scholars date it about 60-61 AD and Paul died just five years later. So he said this statement at the end of his life as a MATURE Christian using the present tense "AM"! Do you actually think you are more spiritual than Paul? Could you say these same words of yourself as Paul did of himself??? You can't say that can you? You wouldn't say that would you? Because your Christ is not the Christ of Paul??????????????

As for my beliefs, it is sick to believe what you say about Paul after Jesus saved him. Paul did not continue sinning in a way that qualifies him to be the chief of sinners. Paul persecuted Christians and was there when Stephen was stoned to death. Paul spoke of himself as the worst of sinners because he tried to stop Christianity!

Read just before the scripture you referenced, Philippians 3:21. Does it sound to you like Paul is still practicing being the chief of sinners?

Join with others in following my example, brothers, and take note of those who live according to the pattern we gave you. Philippians 3:17.

You said Paul is still a practicing sinner which sins mark him as the worst, and chief of sinners. LOL Yet Paul wants us to follow his example! LOL That is just too funny not to laugh at.

1 Timothy 1:15! Do you regard yourself more spiritual, more mature than Paul? Here is the progression of Paul:
1. Early Ministry - "AM LEAST of the apostles" - 1 Cor. 15:9
2. Prison ministry - "AM LEAST of all saints" - Eph. 3:8
3. Near end of ministry - "save sinners, of whom I AM CHIEF" - 1 Tim. 1:15
Do you see the progression in his sin sensitivity as he grew spiritually? At first he was the "least" of APOSTLES. Later he regarded himself "least" of ALL SAINTS. Late in life he regarded himself "chief" of SINNERS.

Paul regarded himself as the least of sinners because he tried to stop Christianity, he went after Christian men and women, he had them beat and put them in prison.

Acts 26:10 And that is just what I did in Jerusalem. On the authority of the chief priests I put many of the saints in prison, and when they were put to death, I cast my vote against them.


Acts 22:19 "'Lord,' I replied, 'these men know that I went from one synagogue to another to imprison and beat those who believe in you.

Acts 22:4 I persecuted the followers of this Way to their death, arresting both men and women and throwing them into prison,

Acts 8:3 But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off men and women and put them in prison.

Acts 9:1 Meanwhile, Saul was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples. He went to the high priest

Acts 9:13 "Lord," Ananias answered, "I have heard many reports about this man and all the harm he has done to your saints in Jerusalem.

Acts 9:21 All those who heard him were astonished and asked, "Isn't he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn't he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?"

1 Corinthians 15:9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

ARE YOU GOING TO STOP SAYING PAUL WAS THE LEAST OF THE APOSTLES BECAUSE HE CONTINUED TO SIN?
Paul was the least of the apostles because he tried to stop Christianity. All the other Apostles were always believers of Jesus.

Galatians 1:13 For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it.

1Timothy 1:13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

 

[Moriah]

Do you see a progression of sin sensitvity in your spiritual growth?

I do not recognize what you say about sin sensitivity in the word of God. I only live by God’s Word, and what you say is not there. What you say about sin sounds to me like you are feeling more guilty for CONTINUING to sin.

I have battled with both of you in regard to sin as evil THOUGHTS without evil actions following but still sin.

God tells us what to things to think of. Practice doing what God says!

I have battled with both of you in regard to the term "perfect" which is defined by Christ in regard to entrance into heaven (Mt. 5:20) as to be "EVEN AS" the Father in heaven - NEVER HAVE SINNED, NEVER WILL SIN, NEVER HAD ANY NEED OF FORGIVENESS OF SIN - that is what the Law demands to be justified as "righteousness" or "good" before God.

Jesus has made me perfect and holy.
Hebrews 10:10 and by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Hebrews 10:14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

Hebrews 11:40 since God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

Hebrews 12:13 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood.

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Hebrews 2:11 Both the one who makes people holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers and sisters.

John 17:19 John 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified

Ephesians 5:26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,

No, you do not understand me correctly. Christ died for all my sins and paid for all my sins and forgave me all my sins. However, he did not IMMEDIATELY remove all my sins from my person and will not remove all sin from my person until the resurrection (Philip. 2:20-21; 1 Cor. 15:51-57; 1 Jn. 3:1-2).

I explained those scriptures to you. Those scriptures are NOT about Jesus expecting us to sin until we receive new bodies.

I believe that God nailed to the cross THE CONDEMNATION of the entire law to the cross and that we are under grace not law - any law of God for justification or for santification. The law was never given by God for justification or to give spiritual life but it was added to define sin and lead us away from self-effort righteousnesss for justification to faith in Christ's righteousness for us.
The law is still valid to point out and define sin. We are not saved by keeping the ten commandments but we are saved by faith in Christ and Spirit generated LOVE COMPELS us to keep His commandments not to be justified but because we are justified and love God.

The law is not merely valid to point out and define sin. We are not only to believe, WE ARE TBEY. How are you a new creature if you are doing the same old sins as before? In addition, if love compels you to keep his commandments, then why do you still defend sinning until you get a new body? Please answer that question. Faith in Jesus justifies us, but our actions work together with faith. Even demons believe that there is One God.

It says "IF anyone LOVES me" it does not say "IF anyone wants to go to heaven they must obey my teaching." Jesus is referring to experiential fellowship and blessing not justification and eternal life. HE IS TALKING TO THOSE ALREADY HIS DISCIPLES and those the HOly Spirit is already "WITH" as individuals - HE IS NOT TALKING TO THE LOST.

Jesus is telling all that they will get the Holy Spirit if they get his commands and obey them. How do you get that those who do not love Jesus will get to go to heaven? ANSWER THAT!

 

[12strings]

Jesus is telling all that they will get the Holy Spirit if they get his commands and obey them.

I'm sorry, I got lost about which verse you & Bib. were talking about...

Where does Jesus say we get the Holy Spirit if we obey his commands? And BTW...which commands are we to obey, and how well do we need to obey them before we get the Holy Spirit?

It seems it would be very hard to keep his commands without the Holy Spirit.

 

[The Biblicist]

Wow. You use Philippians 3:21 to support your beliefs that you cannot stop sinning until you die and are given a new body. You neglect the scriptures right before that one, which says, “Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven, And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ.”

Paul repudiates your extreme doctrine in Philippians 3:12-15 and then repudiates the other opposite extreme that we should sin that grace may about in verses 16-20. However, Philippians 3:21 marks the precise time when sin is removed from our own person and not until that day, just as 1 Cor. 15:51-57 and 1 John 3:1-2 define the precise time when sin will be removed from our own Person - only then will we be totally "conformed" to the sinless Person of Jesus Christ.

Does that sound like Paul is telling us what you are telling us, that Jesus expects us to keep sinning? NO!

Stop perverting our position. We have never said that the justified "should" sin or that Christ "expects" us to sin or "promotes" our sinning or that we should not "resist" sin - that is all your fabrication. Our position is spelled out in crystal clear detail in Philippians 3:12-14 which you and HP avoid like the plague and when you do refer to it you NEVER give an exposition based upon honest exegesis. Instead you just run and jump to another text and PIT scripture against scripture.

You also use 1 John 3:1-2, that is about the type of immortal bodies the saved will receive…it is not about Jesus expecting us to sin until then. Did you not read what John says in the next scripture? John says, “Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.

He is condemning your position and you can't see it! Look at his word "purfieth"!! In English it is a present tense continuous action and it represents a Greek present tense continuous action. He is denying that any child of God has ATTAINED purification but they are still in the process. Verses 1-2 is denying anyone has ATTAINED sinless perfection like Christ but it is yet future. You cannot see he is repeating exactly what he said in 1 John 1:8-10 but in a positive statement. He is condemning your very doctrine as false!

As for my beliefs, it is sick to believe what you say about Paul after Jesus saved him. Paul did not continue sinning in a way that qualifies him to be the chief of sinners. Paul persecuted Christians and was there when Stephen was stoned to death. Paul spoke of himself as the worst of sinners because he tried to stop Christianity!

If Paul was referring to your intepretation he would have said "I WAS" as all the scriptures you quote refer to his PAST state. However, he says "I AM" referring to his present state! Do you understand the "present tense"???? All those scriptures you listed referred to his PAST TENSE state - NOT ONE USED THE PRESENT TENSE! Hence, your interpretation of the present tense "I AM" is false and obviously false as your scriptures don't match, don't fit, don't support your doctrine.

 

[Moriah]

Paul repudiates your extreme doctrine in Philippians 3:12-15

What you call my extreme doctrine is what Jesus says.
Notice that I give you scripture that proves you wrong, but then you only reference more scriptures that you explain falsely.
In Philippians 3:12-15, Paul is explaining that he is pressing on. That he is straining toward what is ahead. Paul is saying to live up to what we have already attained. Where do you get that Paul is saying we are expected to sin because we still have physical bodies? That is nonsense.

and then repudiates the other opposite extreme that we should sin that grace may about in verses 16-20. However, Philippians 3:21 marks the precise time when sin is removed from our own person and not until that day, just as 1 Cor. 15:51-57 and 1 John 3:1-2 define the precise time when sin will be removed from our own Person - only then will we be totally "conformed" to the sinless Person of Jesus Christ.

What you just said is not biblical. What you said is not in the Bible. I do not make up things that I think God says then obey them.

Stop perverting our position.

Do not blame me for things that you do.

We have never said that the justified "should" sin or that Christ "expects" us to sin or "promotes" our sinning or that we should not "resist" sin - that is all your fabrication.

Stop making up things that I did not say. However, it is to be expected, since you make up things that the Bible does not say, like you saying a person gets more sensitive to their sins the closer they get to the Lord, and that we are expected to sin because we still have a physical body.

Our position is spelled out in crystal clear detail in Philippians 3:12-14 which you and HP avoid like the plague and when you do refer to it you NEVER give an exposition based upon honest exegesis. Instead you just run and jump to another text and PIT scripture against scripture.

In your imagination I do those things. Lol
I explained Philippians 3:12-14 here. Paul says to work out our salvation with trembling and fear, not with convincing yourself and others that it is natural and expected for Christians to sin, and that sinning does not affect our salvation.

He is condemning your position and you can't see it! Look at his word "purfieth"!! In English it is a present tense continuous action and it represents a Greek present tense continuous action. He is denying that any child of God has ATTAINED purification but they are still in the process. Verses 1-2 is denying anyone has ATTAINED sinless perfection like Christ but it is yet future. You cannot see he is repeating exactly what he said in 1 John 1:8-10 but in a positive statement. He is condemning your very doctrine as false!

You are the one who said Paul is still a practicing chief sinner, even though Paul says to follow his pattern. LOL Paul beats his body so he will not be disqualified for the prize. Does that sound like someone who condemns my preaching obedience to Christ? LOL

If Paul was referring to your intepretation he would have said "I WAS" as all the scriptures you quote refer to his PAST state. However, he says "I AM" referring to his present state! Do you understand the "present tense"???? All those scriptures you listed referred to his PAST TENSE state - NOT ONE USED THE PRESENT TENSE! Hence, your interpretation of the present tense "I AM" is false and obviously false as your scriptures don't match, don't fit, don't support your doctrine.

You want us to follow someone who is sinning in a worst way. You want us to be a chief sinner too. What you teach is ridiculous.

 

[Moriah]

I'm sorry, I got lost about which verse you & Bib. were talking about...

Where does Jesus say we get the Holy Spirit if we obey his commands? And BTW...which commands are we to obey, and how well do we need to obey them before we get the Holy Spirit?

It seems it would be very hard to keep his commands without the Holy Spirit.

Consider carefully these powerful and beautiful words of Jesus Christ.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.”

Did you hear that? He who loves Jesus is the one who obeys him. God will love those who love Jesus, and Jesus will love him too, AND SHOW HIMSELF TO HIM. You do not even know Jesus if you do not obey him!

1 John 2:3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

Jesus says you are a liar if you say you know him but do not do what he commands.

1 John 2:4 The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

We do not even remain in Jesus love unless we obey his commands. Just as Jesus remains in his Father’s love.

John 15:10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

Jesus will give us the Holy Spirit when we obey his teachings.

John 14:23 Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."

1 John 3:24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

You worry about being able to keep Jesus’ commandments without the Holy Spirit, but Jesus says the forceful take it by storm. Jesus says not to give up. I can give you scriptures for those to, if you are interested.
God’s commands are not burdensome, they are easy, and they are light. 1 John 5:3, and Matthew 11:30.

 

[The Biblicist]

In Philippians 3:12-15, Paul is explaining that he is pressing on. That he is straining toward what is ahead. Paul is saying to live up to what we have already attained. Where do you get that Paul is saying we are expected to sin because we still have physical bodies? That is nonsense.

I explained Philippians 3:12-14 here. Paul says to work out our salvation with trembling and fear, not with convincing yourself and others that it is natural and expected for Christians to sin, and that sinning does not affect our salvation.

You claim that you have explained Philippians 2:12-14 above. Try reading the text before you attempt to explain it. How do I know you never read it? Very simple, you ignored and the denied the very point Paul is making:

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.


You say that Paul had not "attained" but fail to point out what Paul said he had not "attained" unto - "WERE ALREADY PERFECT" The very thing you and HP claim you HAVE ATTAINED!

Being "perfect" is what he has not attained. Being "perfect" is what he is following after. Being "perfect" is what he says he has not "apprehended."

However, even though he admits he has not attained being "perfect" it is nevertheless what he continually strives after and press towards.

He is denying the very doctrine you embrace and are defending. He denies anyone can "attain" being "perfect"!

We know from the context that "perfect" means without sin because that is the "prize" of the High calling to be LIKE CHRIST. Paul denies this occurs until the resurrection:

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Paul did not say "live up to what we attained" but denied that being "perfect" has been attained! YOU MAKE HIM SAY EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT HE ACTUALLY SAID!

 

[Moriah]

You claim that you have explained Philippians 2:12-14 above. Try reading the text before you attempt to explain it. How do I know you never read it? Very simple, you ignored and the denied the very point Paul is making:

You resort to false accusations.

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

I never said I was perfect. God said I was. I preach obedience to Christ. You teach defense of sinning.
Paul teaches us to press on. Paul says to work out our salvation with trembling and fear. Nowhere do I read what you teach, that we do not have to worry about not sinning.
You teach Paul is a practicing chief sinner. Your teaching is blasphemous against Paul.

You say that Paul had not "attained" but fail to point out what Paul said he had not "attained" unto - "WERE ALREADY PERFECT" The very thing you and HP claim you HAVE ATTAINED! Being "perfect" is what he has not attained. Being "perfect" is what he is following after. Being "perfect" is what he says he has not "apprehended."

Paul said he did not yet perfect, that does not mean we are not to be perfect. You are a person who is trying to tell us that Paul wants us to follow him the worst of sinners, as if Paul still is that same sinning person, and you want to give us lessons on the word of God! That is ridiculous.

He is denying the very doctrine you embrace and are defending. He denies anyone can "attain" being "perfect"!

Paul does not say that no one can attain to being perfect. That is you adding to the word of God again.
Jesus says I am perfect and holy and am being made holy. THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD.

We know from the context that "perfect" means without sin because that is the "prize" of the High calling to be LIKE CHRIST. Paul denies this occurs until the resurrection:

The prize is eternal life.

21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
Paul did not say "live up to what we attained" but denied that being "perfect" has been attained! YOU MAKE HIM SAY EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT HE ACTUALLY SAID!

What did you say? Did you say Paul did NOT say “live up to what we attained”? That IS what Paul said! “Only let us live up to what we have already attained.” See Philippians 3:16. Paul is saying exactly what he says, and that is that we live up to what we have already attained. You just denied Paul’s words. Who cannot see what you do?

 

[The Biblicist]

Paul said he did not yet perfect, that does not mean we are not to be perfect..........Paul does not say that no one can attain to being perfect.

Now, either he denied that he atttained perfection or he did not, can't be both as your contradictory words above say.

I could care less what you think. What does Paul say?

12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:

Are you more spiritual than Paul? He denied he "were already perfect" but you claim you are and can be!

 

[DHK]

I never said I was perfect. God said I was.

Are you perfect in your standing, and in your actions?
If so, God also says that "He cannot lie." You are not perfect in your actions therefore you are calling into question the integrity of God--calling God a liar.

I preach obedience to Christ. You teach defense of sinning.

We both preach obedience to Christ. But the Bible also says to confess our sins to God. How can you do that if you say you have no sins to confess?

Paul teaches us to press on. Paul says to work out our salvation with trembling and fear. Nowhere do I read what you teach, that we do not have to worry about not sinning.

1John 1:9; 1John 2:1,2

You teach Paul is a practicing chief sinner. Your teaching is blasphemous against Paul.

Did Paul blaspheme against himself. IT was his testimony.

Paul said he did not yet perfect, that does not mean we are not to be perfect.

You are greater than Paul???

You are a person who is trying to tell us that Paul wants us to follow him the worst of sinners, as if Paul still is that same sinning person, and you want to give us lessons on the word of God! That is ridiculous.

Paul wrote 13 books of the NT, went on 3 missionary journeys, established over 100 churches, and you still think you are better than Paul. Paul commanded "be ye followers of me even as I am of Christ." We are commanded to be followers of Paul."

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

Paul does not say that no one can attain to being perfect. That is you adding to the word of God again.

He says "I have not attained."

Jesus says I am perfect and holy and am being made holy. THAT IS THE WORD OF GOD.

Are you Jesus? Are you God? Are you as holy as God?

What did you say? Did you say Paul did NOT say “live up to what we attained”? That IS what Paul said! “Only let us live up to what we have already attained.” See Philippians 3:16. Paul is saying exactly what he says, and that is that we live up to what we have already attained. You just denied Paul’s words. Who cannot see what you do?

You are not perfect. You can only live up to what you have attained. Methinks you have not attained very much.

 

[Moriah]

Are you perfect in your standing, and in your actions?
If so, God also says that "He cannot lie." You are not perfect in your actions therefore you are calling into question the integrity of God--calling God a liar.

We both preach obedience to Christ. But the Bible also says to confess our sins to God. How can you do that if you say you have no sins to confess?

1John 1:9; 1John 2:1,2

Did Paul blaspheme against himself. IT was his testimony.

You are greater than Paul???

Paul wrote 13 books of the NT, went on 3 missionary journeys, established over 100 churches, and you still think you are better than Paul. Paul commanded "be ye followers of me even as I am of Christ." We are commanded to be followers of Paul."

1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.

1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.

He says "I have not attained."

Are you Jesus? Are you God? Are you as holy as God?

You are not perfect. You can only live up to what you have attained. Methinks you have not attained very much.

I am not even interested in trying to explain to you. Maybe if you learn to talk different to me.

 

[Moriah]

Now, either he denied that he atttained perfection or he did not, can't be both as your contradictory words above say.

I said, “Paul said he did not yet perfect, that does not mean we are not to be perfect..........Paul does not say that no one can attain to being perfect.”
There is nothing contradictory about what I said. Just because you make a false accusation does not make what you say correct. In fact, I would not trust for you to teach me anything concerning the Lord. You are steeped in false doctrines.

I could care less what you think. What does Paul say?
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect:
Are you more spiritual than Paul? He denied he "were already perfect" but you claim you are and can be!

I say what the Word of God says.

 

[DHK]

I am not even interested in trying to explain to you. Maybe if you learn to talk different to me.

It is very simple.
In view of 1John 1:8,10,
how is it possible that any one can claim sinlessness?
How do you explain the consequences of both of these verses when they both begin this way: "If we say we have not sinned...."

How do you explain your position in the light of these two verses:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Moriah]

It is very simple.
In view of 1John 1:8,10,

I have already explained 1 John 1:8-10 for you. If you want to speak to me about my God and the scriptures of my beliefs, then try to remember what I have already told you. Stop repeating your beliefs to me when you speak to me about mine.
1 John 1:8-10 is about being saved. It is about repenting of sins so that one could be saved.

how is it possible that any one can claim sinlessness?

Who has claimed sinlessness? Quote exactly and give the location of the quote, or repent for speaking lies.
God says I am perfect and holy. I am perfecting holiness out of reverence for God.

How do you explain the consequences of both of these verses when they both begin this way: "If we say we have not sinned...."

How many times do I have to explain them to you? If you want to debate others on their beliefs, then try to remember what their beliefs are. Again, 1 John 1:8-10 is about being saved…when Jesus first saves someone. If someone does not believe they are a sinner that needs to repent, then the truth is not in them---which mean they were not saved. Again, and again, it is about being saved.

 

[savedbymercy]

The Blood of Christ continusouly cleanses everyone He died for from all sins before God's Law and Justice ! 1 Jn 1:7

7But if we walk in the light [Gospel light], as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

This blood ceansing is in the present tense, it's always presently cleansing before God's law and Justice ! It never looses it power before the Throne God, not ever ! Blessed are those Christ shed His Blood in behalf of !