Is torturing prisoners Biblical?

[Timsings]

. . . This pathetic view is sad and twisted.

The pathetic view that is sad and twisted is the one that says that it is all right to torture people regardless of what they have done, what we think they have done, or what we think that they know.

A lot of people on this forum get all bent out of shape when posters take positions and don't support them with scripture. So I am going to give you scripture to support my "pathetic view".

. . . Do not resist those who wrong you. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn and offer him the other also. . . . If someone in authority presses you into service for one mile, go with him two. . . . Love your enemies and pray for your persecutors; only so can you be children of your heavenly Father, . . .
[selections from Matthew 5.38-48]

This passage does not exempt terrorists or bombers or radical members of Al-Qaida or the Taliban. So the question must be asked: Do you believe these words of Jesus and follow them, or not?

Tim Reynolds

 

[righteousdude2]

No Need to Quote the Word!!!!

I notice you didn't offer any scripture to support your beliefs. Nor did you engage any of the scripture that has been quoted to demonstrate why you think someone is "trying to bend" it.

You just stated a bunch of stuff that could have been stated by any non-Christian. You are bordering on blaspheming. Before you smear God you should study the OT a little better, Pastor Paul.Again, you are incorrect. Mankind invented warfare. Gen 6:11 "Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence." (v.13) "Then God said to Noah, 'The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them;'"

peace to youraying:

Why quote scripture when scripture has little to do with a subject that has risen out of the flesh, not of the spirit. The liberals of this country want to criticize everything being done by this administration, and I for one believe this is nothing less than the flesh speaking. Oh, you can quote all the Scripture you want kiddo, but do not throw the word blasphemy in my direction. I'm not bordering on blaspheming by any means......that accusation is your opinion, BUT it is also pious and highly judgmental [a fleshly spirit lives within you, canadyjd ], and your judgmental comments about my relationship with Jesus is highly offensive and uncalled for in a Christian forum.

I apologize for saying that God invented warfare :type: . What I meant to say was, God approved warfare when He instructed Israel [many, many times]to destroy other nations; often providing His supernatural assistance in many of the battles, i.e., Gideon (Judges 6-7), Joshua @ Jericho (Joshua 6:2 - Then the LORD said to Joshua, "See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men.come to mind). God definitely approved of war, which meant death and destruction for the enemies of Israel.

I hope this satisfies your hunger for supportive Scriptures,canadyjd? I, too, have access to Bible Gateway!

Shalom,

Pastor Paul

 

[canadyjd]

Why quote scripture when scripture has little to do with a subject that has risen out of the flesh, not of the spirit. The liberals of this country want to criticize everything being done by this administration, and I for one believe this is nothing less than the flesh speaking.

The question of the thread was "Is torture biblical?" That supposes, it seems to me, that scripture must be addressed to answer the question. I haven't said anything about politics, nor do I care to.

Oh, you can quote all the Scripture you want kiddo, but do not throw the word blasphemy in my direction. I'm not bordering on blaspheming by any means......that accusation is your opinion,

You said God killed people during the O.T. times without regard for the sanctity of life. I find that comment to border on blasphemy, and I don't make the accusation lightly. The only one who has infinite regard for the sanctity of life is Almighty God. Whatever God condoned or commanded concerning wars was not done without regard for the sanctity of life, but with a full understanding and appreciation of the sanctity of life. I truly hope you have simply misspoken and don't believe what you said.

BUT it is also pious and highly judgmental [a fleshly spirit lives within you, canadyjd ], and your judgmental comments about my relationship with Jesus is highly offensive and uncalled for in a Christian forum.

I made no comments about your relationship to Jesus. Read the posts a little closer.

I hope this satisfies your hunger for supportive Scriptures,canadyjd?

My hunger for scripture can never be satisfied.

I, too, have access to Bible Gateway!

I don't know what that is.... but good for you.

peace to youraying:

 

[righteousdude2]

Wow...I Understand Now....

Touché! You may have scored a point, but allow me to make this observation about your spirit: I think I can better understand why the sinner is often "turned-off" with Christianity........if they run into people like you, I can see why they'd run the other way.

Just to be perfectly clear: I did not say that God killed without regard to the sanctity of life. I did say that He killed many people in the OT, and will kill many more people when their failure to come to Him through His Son ends up in their being sent to Hell. Does that mean He doesn't care for the sanctity of life.......well, those destined for a life time of hell fire and brimstone may tell you that God didn't care for the sanctity of THEIR life!.......so, you tell me.

And you did insinuate that my response was non-Christian. Let me quote you: "You just stated a bunch of stuff that could have been stated by any non-Christian." It sounded as if you were lumping me in with non-Christians, but, that was my take on your words.

In closing, I do believe that mankind has been adequately warned, and their eternal destination [damnation] is their own doing, or undoing!

I wish you well Canadyd, and want to end my discussion with you on a note of brotherly/sisterly détente! :wavey:

Shalom,

Pastor Paul

 

[Bob Alkire]

Would this fit the bill? Judges 1:5-7;

And they found Adonibezek in Bezek: and they fought against him, and they slew the Canaanites and the Perizzites. 6 But Adonibezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes. 7 And Adonibezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their thumbsa and their great toes cut off, gathered their meat under my table: as I have done, so God hath requited me. And they brought him to Jerusalem, and there he died.
I would say the Israelites probably cut off this man’s thumbs so he could not wield a sword and his big toes so he could not run away, as well as to humiliate him. I would say these were temporary measures till they could carry out God’s will and slay him. The loss of these digits also made it impossible for him to serve as a priest as well as a warrior, a dual function among many ancient eastern kings.

Our papers and TV reporters would go wild over the above.

 

[canadyjd]

Touché! You may have scored a point, but allow me to make this observation about your spirit: I think I can better understand why the sinner is often "turned-off" with Christianity........if they run into people like you, I can see why they'd run the other way.

I see that you turn to personal attacks when you begin to lose the debate. Now you have hurt my feelings.:tear:

Just to be perfectly clear: I did not say that God killed without regard to the sanctity of life.

righteousdude2: post#58 "Don't forget, God did a lot of things to mankind throughout the OT that was very bloody and often without regard for the sanctity of life."

I did say that He killed many people in the OT, and will kill many more people when their failure to come to Him through His Son ends up in their being sent to Hell. Does that mean He doesn't care for the sanctity of life.......well, those destined for a life time of hell fire and brimstone may tell you that God didn't care for the sanctity of THEIR life!.......so, you tell me.

I'd say that I would not presume to judge God. I know from scripture that God has revealed Himself to be longsuffering, full of compassion and mercy and the very essense of love. He alone has the full understanding of the sanctity of life.

And you did insinuate that my response was non-Christian. Let me quote you: "You just stated a bunch of stuff that could have been stated by any non-Christian." It sounded as if you were lumping me in with non-Christians, but, that was my take on your words.

That was a comment on your lack of scripture in support of your argument. I said nothing concerning your relationship with Jesus.

I wish you well Canadyd, and want to end my discussion with you on a note of brotherly/sisterly détente! :wavey:

peace to youraying:

 

[righteousdude2]

I know When I Need to Quit

I see that you turn to personal attacks when you begin to lose the debate. Now you have hurt my feelings.:tear: I'd say that I would not presume to judge God. I know from scripture that God has revealed Himself to be longsuffering, full of compassion and mercy and the very essense of love. He alone has the full understanding of the sanctity of life.That was a comment on your lack of scripture in support of your argument. I said nothing concerning your relationship with Jesus. peace to youraying:

As I said in my last post.....you are too "crafty" for me canadyjd. You have put a lot of personal time in tracking down and finding sentenes to use in your response to me. I applaud your efforts. Now, ask yourself this canadyjd, if you put this much time and effort into things for the Kingdom, how many people could you reach for Jesus.

It's time for you to move. Take this directive to do so: Matthew 28:18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Blessing to you, and I'm sorry for hurting your feelings.

 

[canadyjd]

As I said in my last post.....you are too "crafty" for me canadyjd. You have put a lot of personal time in tracking down and finding sentenes to use in your response to me.

Brother, I have done no such thing. I have simply responded to what you have posted. It didn't take much time at all. Obviously, I have hit a nerve leading directly to your sense of pride. I have had to eat my words more than once on the BB. It has made me more careful in what I choose to post.

Now, ask yourself this canadyjd, if you put this much time and effort into things for the Kingdom, how many people could you reach for Jesus....It's time for you to move. Take this directive to do so: Matthew 28:18...

The log in your eye must keep you from seeing the four fingers you have pointing right back at you.

Blessing to you, and I'm sorry for hurting your feelings.

You didn't really hurt my feelings, I was being sarcastic.:1_grouphug:

peace to youraying:

 

[righteousdude2]

Shouldn't you be Apologizing????

Brother, I have done no such thing. I have simply responded to what you have posted. It didn't take much time at all. Obviously, I have hit a nerve leading directly to your sense of pride. I have had to eat my words more than once on the BB. It has made me more careful in what I choose to post.The log in your eye must keep you from seeing the four fingers you have pointing right back at you.You didn't really hurt my feelings, I was being sarcastic.:1_grouphug:

peace to youraying:

If you were being sarcastic, shouldn't you be apologizingraying: to God for your less than Christian witness?

You did not hit a nerve in the armor of personal pride, because I don't wear that armor [coat of pride]. However, I am humbled before your ability to discern what I'm thinking, believing, and doing. You possess some wonderful insight, and again, I applaud your efforts to hit the nail on the head.

You can see through everything I post, and you see it with such spiritual clarity, that I think you are wasting your time on line. You need to set up a psychic hotline and charge for your service canadyjd.

Now I need to leave so I may repent from being sarcastic toward your last post.

Why don't you give it a beak girl, and move on with your life. Surely there must be better things to do than try to poke holes in my psyche and rip me up with your keen understanding of theology before my peers on BB. I surrender in a spirit of humility to you, as you have clearly found me out. I am nothing more than a "rank" amateur, and should not even be attempting to debate with someone who is so far advanced in their walk with Jesus. Your comments and posts leave me utterly ashamed at my meager attempts to argue the points for and against torture.

Pastor Paul:type:

 

[JustChristian]

Why quote scripture when scripture has little to do with a subject that has risen out of the flesh, not of the spirit. The liberals of this country want to criticize everything being done by this administration, and I for one believe this is nothing less than the flesh speaking. Oh, you can quote all the Scripture you want kiddo, but do not throw the word blasphemy in my direction. I'm not bordering on blaspheming by any means......that accusation is your opinion, BUT it is also pious and highly judgmental [a fleshly spirit lives within you, canadyjd ], and your judgmental comments about my relationship with Jesus is highly offensive and uncalled for in a Christian forum.

I apologize for saying that God invented warfare :type: . What I meant to say was, God approved warfare when He instructed Israel [many, many times]to destroy other nations; often providing His supernatural assistance in many of the battles, i.e., Gideon (Judges 6-7), Joshua @ Jericho (Joshua 6:2 - Then the LORD said to Joshua, "See, I have delivered Jericho into your hands, along with its king and its fighting men.come to mind). God definitely approved of war, which meant death and destruction for the enemies of Israel.

I hope this satisfies your hunger for supportive Scriptures,canadyjd? I, too, have access to Bible Gateway!

Shalom,

Pastor Paul

So you reject a New Testament admonition to love our enemies in favor of an Old Testament argument that Israel (only) should destroy other nations. Strange.

 

[Aaron]

So you reject a New Testament admonition to love our enemies in favor of an Old Testament argument that Israel (only) should destroy other nations. Strange.

Loving one's enemies doesn't mean allowing them endanger innocent lives, or to withhold information that would prevent such danger.

 

[righteousdude2]

Quit Bending and spinning

So you reject a New Testament admonition to love our enemies in favor of an Old Testament argument that Israel (only) should destroy other nations. Strange.

You ability to jump in the middle of an ongoing debate and assume I am supporting Israel is truly remarkable. But, the truth remains, God did send His chosen to war, and more often than not, intervened to assure them a victory.

This was pointed out to canadyjd in response that God didn't start wars.

Thanks for you "strange" response" Baptist Believer.

Pastor Paul:type:

 

[righteousdude2]

Thanks Aaron

Loving one's enemies doesn't mean allowing them endanger innocent lives, or to withhold information that would prevent such danger.

Thanks for your supportive comment. When I joined this forum, I thought I'd be joining a group of folks that were conservative and loved America. I have since found that a lot of these folks are liberals, seemingly wanting the US to be so humble and meek that the enemy smacks their cheeks off both sides of the face.

War has been declared to be "hell" and in war there are many things that go on that would make liberals and conservatives neck hair curl and stand on ends. As a Viet Nam vet, I can tell you that I was taught this one procedure called "search and destroy" which meant we'd dispatch to a local village that was supposedly informed of our operation. The Army taught us that the villagers that remained were VC sympathizers, and we were to eliminate every living thing.

The was something similar to orders given to Israel by God. They were to destroy every living human and animal.

War hasn't changed much since the creation of man in Eden, but, the growth and voice of liberals has. These folks ought to be treated to an America that is weak kneed, because they would be the first to be killed when the enemy come into their city.

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[canadyjd]

Your comments and posts leave me utterly ashamed at my meager attempts to argue the points for and against torture.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

...I thought I'd be joining a group of folks that were conservative and loved America. I have since found that a lot of these folks are liberals, seemingly wanting the US to be so humble and meek that the enemy smacks their cheeks off both sides of the face.

So, if someone thinks torture is evil, they are "......-..." liberals? You're comments are secular. Your words are fleshly.

I find it stunning that a pastor would twist Jesus' command to "turn the other cheek" into a disparaging attack on those who believe torture is evil.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

Loving one's enemies doesn't mean allowing them ...... to withhold information that would prevent such danger.

If the only way to get the information is torture, then, yes it does.

peace to youraying:

 

[npetreley]

I think if "love your enemies" meant what some folks think it means, Jesus wouldn't have said this:

35 And He said to them, “When I sent you without money bag, knapsack, and sandals, did you lack anything?”
So they said, “Nothing.”
36 Then He said to them, “But now, he who has a money bag, let him take it, and likewise a knapsack; and he who has no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. 37 For I say to you that this which is written must still be accomplished in Me: ‘And He was numbered with the transgressors.’ For the things concerning Me have an end.”
38 So they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.”
And He said to them, “It is enough.”

Yes, Jesus was angry with Peter for chopping off the guard's ear, but that was because Jesus had to drink of the cup appointed for him. Jesus didn't reprimand Peter for failing to love his enemy.

 

[canadyjd]

I think if "love your enemies" meant what some folks think it means, Jesus wouldn't have said this:.....Yes, Jesus was angry with Peter for chopping off the guard's ear, but that was because Jesus had to drink of the cup appointed for him. Jesus didn't reprimand Peter for failing to love his enemy.

Luke 22:49 "When those who were around Him saw what was going to happen, they said, 'Lord, shall we strike with the sword?' (50) And one of them struck the slave of the high priest and cut off his right ear. (51) But Jesus answered and said, 'Stop! No more of this.'"

The reason 2 swords were "enough", was because shortly thereafter someone would cut off the slave's ear and Jesus would tell His disciples to put their swords away forever. His Kingdom will not be established by the sword.

peace to youraying:

 

[npetreley]

The reason 2 swords were "enough", was because shortly thereafter someone would cut off the slave's ear and Jesus would tell His disciples to put their swords away forever. His Kingdom will not be established by the sword.

Although I agree His kingdom will not be established by the sword, that has nothing to do with this passage, and I have no idea what connection you're trying to make.

John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest’s servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant’s name was Malchus.
11 So Jesus said to Peter, “Put your sword into the sheath. Shall I not drink the cup which My Father has given Me?”

 

[Alcott]

The reason 2 swords were "enough", was because shortly thereafter someone would cut off the slave's ear and Jesus would tell His disciples to put their swords away forever. His Kingdom will not be established by the sword.

First, is the word "forever" in the text? Second, why were 2 swords enough if they were to be useless?

peace to you

And tigger, too.