Isa. 59 & Rom. 11 ("and thus all Israel will be saved" in context)

[Dr. Walter]

No sir! It should be "Father's" not "father's" becuse no "father" did the electing but the Heavenly Father.

I never said the Israel he is speaking of is the "entire race of the Jews" but what I said was the nation as a whole in the day of His coming. It is the nation as a whole that has been cut off not the entire race and it is the nation as a whole that will be grafted in again and saved and so "all Israel" shall be saved.

We are not talking about the definition in Romans 2 but the definition in Romans 9:1-7 and Romans 11:1-4 there it is a twice born ethnic Jew.

You have to change the immediate contextual factors in order to escape the fact that it is what has been cut off that is grafted back in again and saved - national ethnic Israel.

They aren't beloved for the Father's sake, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. That is a huge difference.

The Israel Paul is talking about is not the entire race of the Jews. He's talking about God's people among national Israel. In Romans 2 Paul redefines a Jew. He states that he is not a Jew which is one outwardly, meaning that being a natural descendant of Abraham doesn't make one a Jew by his new definition. Rather, says Paul, he is a Jew which is one inwardly. His meaning is, they are not all Israel which are of Israel. Not all natural Jews are real Jews, spiritual Jews, children of God. Only with this definition in mind does the rest of Romans make sense. When Paul redefines the Jew in Romans 2 he is not talking about Gentile believers. That is key. He is talking about Jewish children of God.

Chapters 9, 10, and 11 deal with these redefined Jews. The big question Paul is tackling is, what is going on with Israel? What is God doing with the Jewish people? This is a serious question because most of national Israel is rejecting the gospel. What is going on? Well Paul begins by first expressing his great love for his brethren according to the flesh. This is needful because of his role as apostle to the gentiles. Then he state that not all Israel are of Israel and teaches God sovereignty in election. He goes back to the fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not all children of Abraham were accounted for the seed, only Isaac, the child of promise. Likewise, God chose Jacob and not Esau from Isaac. The point is not all natural Jews are God's people. Next he states how they are caught up in the error of trying to establish their own righteousness before God through the law, and are thus ignorant of God's righteousness. He is praying for their salvation from this ignorance, stating that if they will confess Christ and beleive in Him they will be saved from their state of ignorance and bondage. Finally, He deals with God's dealings with the Jews as large. Israel has been blinded and cut off, and this is according to OT prophecy. Yet, God will save His people.

 

[RAdam]

The fathers are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to whom God began the Jewish nation and made great covenants. Over and over again God has mercy on the Jews based on his covenant with the fathers. You can't change the bible to suit your theology.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The fathers are Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to whom God began the Jewish nation and made great covenants. Over and over again God has mercy on the Jews based on his covenant with the fathers. You can't change the bible to suit your theology.

You are correct and I was wrong in regard to the term "fathers'." I assumed that the term "father's" was a possessive noun and referred to author of election.

Although I was admittedly wrong about the noun my argument still stands solid. The pronoun "you" refers to the GENITLE ELECT presently saved when Paul wrote these words whereas the pronoun "they" refers to the JEWISH ELECT previously designated "all Israel" in verse 26 who are presently lost when Paul wrote these words in verse 28.

Those designed "they" or the JEWISH ELECT were presently lost "enemies" of the Gentile elect when Paul wrote in regard to the gospel. They opposed the Gospel. "They" are those in Romans 10:1-2. They are those "cut off" in Romans 11. "They" are those that shall be grafted in again in Romans 11:23.

No one argues that the remnant were cut off! All admit it was the nation of Israel as a whole that was cut off when they rejected their Messiah and that is the cause for the judgement in A.D. 70. Thus what was cut off is what is grafted back in "again."

 

[RAdam]

You are correct and I was wrong in regard to the term "fathers'." I assumed that the term "father's" was a possessive noun and referred to author of election.

Although I was admittedly wrong about the noun my argument still stands solid. The pronoun "you" refers to the GENITLE ELECT presently saved when Paul wrote these words whereas the pronoun "they" refers to the JEWISH ELECT previously designated "all Israel" in verse 26 who are presently lost when Paul wrote these words in verse 28.

Those designed "they" or the JEWISH ELECT were presently lost "enemies" of the Gentile elect when Paul wrote in regard to the gospel. They opposed the Gospel. "They" are those in Romans 10:1-2. They are those "cut off" in Romans 11. "They" are those that shall be grafted in again in Romans 11:23.

No one argues that the remnant were cut off! All admit it was the nation of Israel as a whole that was cut off when they rejected their Messiah and that is the cause for the judgement in A.D. 70. Thus what was cut off is what is grafted back in "again."

Forget 70 AD for a minute. Paul is not talking about a future judgement on the Jewish people. He's talking about a present judgement on individuals, these individuals being signified by "some branches." If the individuals cast out abide not in unbelief they will be graffed in again. There is a conditional statement. If they do something they will be restored. It's not a guarantee that all broken off will be graffed back in again, it is conditional on them. This is a timely thing, not eternal. It deals with the blessings of the new covenant here in time, namely the gospel church. Paul says the same thing in 2 Corinthians 3 when he says that "when it [the heart of these Jewish people which is vailed to the truths of God] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away." This is talking about a timely blessing God will bestow upon individuals when they confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in their hearts that God hath raised Him from the dead.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Romans 11:17 mentions two different olive trees. (1) wild one; (2) cultured one. The branches are broken off of the wild tree and grafted into the cultured one while the cultured one has natural branches broken off and simply laid aside that are to be grafted back in "again" (v. 23).

So the branches come from two different trees and yet it is only the natural tree that grafting in takes place.

The branches of the natural olive tree refer to natural born Jews and their heritage as the restricted sphere of God's redemptive purposes. Being grafted in or broken off does not refer to either a saved or lost INDIVIDUAL condition but to privildges afforded to them by God's redemptive work among them. The same is true of the wild branches being grafted in or broken off.

The trunk of the natural olive tree refers to the promises and convenants of the fathers.

Neither tree represents the church or the family of God or the kingdom of God but rather represents the Jewish or Gentile nations as dispensations or spheres of God's redemptive activity. We live in a Gentile age or dispensation presently whereas the precross period was a Jewish dispensation or sphere of God's redemptive activities.

What was "cut off" was not INDIVIDUAL Jews or gentiles any more than what was grafted in was INDIVIDUAL Jews or gentiles. What you see here is Jews being cut off versus gentiles being grafted in not as individuals but as CULTURES and spheres of the redemptive work of God.

The contrast is never between INDIVIDUALS but between ISRAEL versus GENTILES. When Paul says "YOU" he is not referring to INDIVIDUALS but to GENTILES that can be "cut off" and when he refers to "THEY" can be cut off or grafted in "again" he is not speaking of INDIVIDUALS but ISRAEL as a nation.

If he were speaking of INDIVIDUALS then we would have saved and lost individual conditions because the "you" that is grafted in is also the "you" that will be cut off and the "they" that has been part is now cut off but will be grafted in "again." And so it is perposterous to believe that he has individual Jews and Gentiles in mind.

Romans 11:25-28 should put to rest the idea that he is talking about a MIXTURE of individual elect from all nations as there is a distinct contrast between gentiles and Israel from start (v. 25) to finish (v. 28).