Isaiah 53

[psalms109:31]

Election sure

If we keep our focus on Jesus are election is sure, if you not focusing on Jesus then yes you need to examine yourself, because your faith has been misplaced.

We are chosen in Christ from the beginning.

God had the plan from the beginning to save those who are in Jesus, the church the body with Jesus being the head.

 

[johnp.]

But you have no certainty of salvation as you are depending on yourself to walk the walk or walk away yet I am guaranteed my salvation as all Christians are why are you not?

guarantee : 2 an assurance that something will have a specified outcome

Eph 1:13-14 ...Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance...

Our inheritance is guaranteed to us regardless of us psalms. If you work out your salvation you will find that There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18.

The Jews has always been His from the beginning...

Beginning of what? They were not a nation until Abraham and that was a long way from the beginning.

john.

 

[psalms109:31]

Depending on Jesus

You are depending on yourself by saying God choose you over another.

There is no way I'm depending on myself that is just a lie from the devil, I'm depending on God through Jesus for my salvation.

We are saved by grace through faith, which this faith comes from the word of God.

God is not depending on us either, we are depending on God.

 

[psalms109:31]

Nation

Beginning of what? They were not a nation until Abraham and that was a long way from the beginning.

Since Adam and Eve.

 

[J.D.]

I suspect that if you took a poll of the Calvinists on the Baptist Board, you would find few if any who presumed that they were Christians because they are Calvinists. When the Lord saved me, I didn't even know what Calvinism was. Most Calvinists will say the same thing.

Both Calvinists and non-Calvinists, if they are consistent, will hold that the proof that they are elect springs from the fact that they repented of their sins and trusted Christ for their salvation.

Nice reply Tom. It's amazing that in spite of all his bluster and Calvin-quoting, this guy still can make an ignorant statement like that.

 

[psalms109:31]

guarantee : 2 an assurance that something will have a specified outcome

Eph 1:13-14 ...Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance...

Our inheritance is guaranteed to us regardless of us psalms. If you work out your salvation you will find that There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18.

Those who endure to the end will be saved, if you walk away, then you were never His in the first place.

I know Jesus will save me. How can I return back to my old life knowing Jesus suffered for it.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

John P

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

...I see we are included in Christ when we hear, he who has ears that is, unless one is born again.

Based upon Ephesians 1:13, which you've cited, at what point do you suppose that someone becomes "in Christ"? Is it before they believe, or after? In other words, do you suppose that a person hears, believes and then becomes in Christ, or is a person preemptively born in Christ, and then hears, and then believes, and then is sealed in Christ? What say you?

 

[DQuixote]

Since this is a debate forum, and you do not debate, I'm wondering why you aren't willing to go beyond your statement and defend it with scripture, as Rippon did.

So you want Rippon to post his scriptures, and I'll post mine, and then we'll both declare the other wrong, is that it? That's what happens in debate. The first "rule," if you will, of spiritual interpretation of scripture, of spiritual exegesis, of spiritual analysis, is that we NEVER pit one scripture against another. Not on my watch.

 

[Rippon]

DQ , this is a debate forum . What did you expect ? Earlier you had said that you simply like to state what you believe and leave it at that . But if you're a Christian wouldn't you want to feature scriptural reasons as to why you believe as you do ? Give the hope for what lies within my man .

 

[johnp.]

Hello ex.

...at what point do you suppose that someone becomes "in Christ"?

When one hears. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth

You were included. Having believed you are marked. One is marked as one believes. One believes as he is regenerated. Being born of God is being given ears that we can hear spiritual truths with. Understanding is a sign of regeneration.

Regeneration is faith being received. He circumcises the heart, opens the ears and eyes to spiritual things. One is justified. There is no time gap between having believed and receiving the Holy Spirit for it is the Holy Spirit that enlightens us to believe, (John 6:29), the work of God. One is included in Christ as one hears and when one hears one is marked.

john.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JP

What translation are you using for Eph 1:13? The NASB and KJV reads a little differently.

NASB: In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

KJV: In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

By way of comparison, Arminianism teaches that one receives Prevenient Grace (illumination, heart opened, pricked and convicted) through the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8) and faith produced by the Gospel (Romans 10:17), and upon believing in the Gospel, he is sealed in Christ as one spirit with God (1Cor 6:17-18) with the Indwelling and Sanctification of the Holy Spirit whereupon he is made a new creature in the new birth of being made born again with a new heart and a new spirit. (2Cor 5:17; Ezek 36:26)

I perceive that what Calvinism teaches, as per James White, quote available upon request, that the "elect" person in the alleged, eternal flock of the Father, is born in Christ, and hence being regenerated with the Holy Spirit, believes when he hears and is thus "saved."

Thoughts JP?

 

[johnp.]

Hello ex.

What translation are you using for Eph 1:13? The NASB and KJV reads a little differently.

I have no idea why you ask this, I use the NIV. You know there is no after in the Greek.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also heard word truth gospel your salvation: in whom also believed with holy Spirit promise (Strong) http://www.studylight.org

In Him we heard the word of truth.

By way of comparison...

God hates those He chose for Hell and any sunshine they receive from the Despot will go towards their punishment. If it is said man benefits from a delay in wrath I would say that any delay stores up more.

...and upon believing in the Gospel, he is sealed in Christ as one spirit with God...

Unless a man is born of God he cannot see to believe in anything. Unless a man is born of God he is at enmity with the One he hates. I should not have to tell you that.
JN 3:10 "You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11 I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12 I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things?

I perceive that what Calvinism teaches, as per James White, quote available upon request, that the "elect" person in the alleged, eternal flock of the Father, is born in Christ, and hence being regenerated with the Holy Spirit, believes when he hears and is thus "saved."

I don't believe he refers to the sheep as the 'alleged eternal flock of the Father'. I don't need any quote though, what difference does White make to scripture?
Your tactic to have a discussion about men and their differences with us is not working is it?

...is born in Christ, and hence being regenerated with the Holy Spirit, believes when he hears and is thus "saved."

If one is regenerated one understands and is saved is one event. If one is saved one is regenerated and believes. Seeing is believing or so I'm told and only the regenerate see. JN 3:3 In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again. "

My thoughts ex.

john.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JP

What's with all of the smily faces, in seemingly every post that you make? Are you actually giggling in every post?

At Eph 1:13, I asked about the translation that you used because it seemed in stark contrast to the NASB and KJV.

Unless a man is born of God he is at enmity with the One he hates. I should not have to tell you that.

At John 3:3, the idea that unless one is born again, he cannot "see" the kingdom of God, is reiterated at John 3:5 where "see" is understood from the perspective of "enter." Obviously this line of discussion next takes us to John 1:12-13 and 1st John 5:1, which I've done writeups on.

I don't believe he refers to the sheep as the 'alleged eternal flock of the Father'.

White does not use the word "alleged." I did. In fact, I always refer to it as the "alleged" eternal flock of the Father, obviously because I'm not a Calvinist. Here is White's quote: "When the time comes in God’s sovereign providence to bring to spiritual life each of those for whom Christ died, the Spirit of God will not only effectively accomplish that work of regeneration but that new creature in Christ will, unfailingly, believe in Jesus Christ (‘all that the Father gives Me will come to Me’). Hence, we are not saved ‘without’ faith, but at the same time, Christ’s atonement is not rendered useless and vain without the addition of libertarian free will.” (Debating Calvinism, p.191) So his point is that a person must first be "in Christ" in order to believe, meaning that the "elect" person must first be "in Christ" before they are sealed in Christ. That was the point that I was contrasting as the Calvinist view. The Arminian believes that you become in Christ only upon being "sealed" in Christ, upon hearing and believing in the Gospel, as in 1) hear Gospel 2) believe Gospel 3) sealed in Christ. (Eph 1:13)

God hates those He chose for Hell and any sunshine they receive from the Despot will go towards their punishment.

Notice that I did not post a comment from Calvin, because he actually agreed (being a 4-Point Supralapsarian), not that you care, but nevertheless, Spurgeon refers to such a radical form of supralapsarianism as "blasphemy," as well as R.C. Sproul calling it a "monstrous assault of the integrity of God" which inevitably "makes God the author of sin" and is "hyper Calvinism."

Here is a link to the quotes of both Spurgeon and Sproul:
http://www.examiningcalvinism.com/files/Paul/Romans9_22.html

I realize that you do not care what White says, what Calvin says, what Spurgeon says, what Sproul says, but it just seems to me, that what I'm reading from these Calvinist authors does not seem to be indicative of the avg Calvinist, which seems to be much more inline with the Arthur Pink model.

 

[DQuixote]

DQ , this is a debate forum . What did you expect ? Earlier you had said that you simply like to state what you believe and leave it at that . But if you're a Christian wouldn't you want to feature scriptural reasons as to why you believe as you do ? Give the hope for what lies within my man .

Why I believe as I do? Just stop to think about what you are saying. In spite of the fact that ALL scripture is spiritually discerned by those who are born again, in spite of the fact that the Holy Spirit enables our understanding, you want to pit scripture against scripture; you want to debate. You want me to confess to believing one way while you believe another. Then we compare our beliefs, for crying out loud! There is nothing holy or spiritual or scriptural in that!

You want to win someone over to your intellectual interpretation.

Those of us who are born again, who study with the light of the Holy Spirit, are supposed to collapse and say, "Gosh, I got that wrong. Thanks so much for clearing that up for me." Salami, Salami, Baloni. Lean not to your own understanding -- in all your ways acknowledge Him. That does not happen when Christians debate scripture, tossing it around like its some advertisement from the local newspaper.

I already know what the response will be. I've seen it in these forums before. "Oh, so you're spiritual and we aren't? So what makes you so right?"

You prove my point precisely.

:godisgood: :jesus:

 

[Rippon]

DQ , I do not see the validity of your protestations . Why do you choose to post here if you don't want to back up your contentions with Scripture ?

Give your biblical reasons why you think Christ did not die for the sheep , or why goats can be saved or whatever .

 

[psalms109:31]

sheep & goats

All of us are like sheep who have gone astray.

A goat is like saul before he was born again and became Paul.

They use to use goats to slaughter sheep. The goat would walk up this plank that lead to this pit and before it fell into the pit the goat would jump off, but the sheep would continue into the pit of thier own destruction. A goat is a false teacher who really thinks they are doing the work of God, but are just killing His sheep.

Paul was learning just like many of you, it took to almost the end of his life to realize this.

1 Timothy 2:3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles.

This is all we can really do right now for those who have not come to that realization.

2 Timothy 2:24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

 

[johnp.]

ex.

What's with all of the smily faces, in seemingly every post that you make? Are you actually giggling in every post?

Men don't giggle. No.

At Eph 1:13, I asked about the translation that you used because it seemed in stark contrast to the NASB and KJV.

And I answered with Strong and then, In Him we heard the word of truth. Where did we hear the word of truth?

Obviously this line of discussion next takes us to John 1:12-13 and 1st John 5:1, which I've done writeups on.

Obviously you want to skip along but before that, In Him we heard the word of truth. Where did we hear the word of truth? Was it in Christ by any chance?

White does not use the word "alleged." I did.

Then it was a misleading quote from you. You said, I perceive that what Calvinism teaches, as per James White...that the "elect" person in the alleged, eternal flock of the Father, is born in Christ... This might have misled someone who does not know James White like I don't know of him. I know a Brown and a Pink but not a White. Why did you do that? It is your integrity that is under inspection.

Notice that I did not post a comment from Calvin, because he actually agreed (being a 4-Point Supralapsarian), not that you care, but nevertheless, Spurgeon refers to such a radical form of supralapsarianism as "blasphemy," as well as R.C. Sproul calling it a "monstrous assault of the integrity of God" which inevitably "makes God the author of sin" and is "hyper Calvinism."

Not that I care but one cannot be a 4 point supralapsarian can one? In fact I do not recognise any as Calvinist unless they have hold on the 5 points. Any less and one is a usurper of sovereignty. God is the Author of sin and provably so from scripture.
As you are such an expert on all the good men that went before me which of them claimed as I do?

The Reformers were great men of faith and without them I would be in a very gloomy place.

...Spurgeon refers to such a radical form of supralapsarianism as "blasphemy,"
Calvinist, R.C. Sproul, clarifies: “The distortion of double predestination looks like this:

Then you really should talk to Sproul and engage him. For Calvin to be a hyper-Calvinist through to Pelagian is often repeated.
If Calvin is hyper because of this: By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestinated to life or to death. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book 3 chapter 21:5.)

Then so am I. I am not offended by the opinions of those I do not respect the views of.
But whose has learned from the mouth of Christ that all the hairs of his head are numbered, (Matth. 10: 30,) will look farther for the cause, and hold that all events whatsoever are governed by the secret counsel of God. With regard to inanimate objects again we must hold that though each is possessed of its peculiar properties, yet all of them exert their force only in so far as directed by the immediate hand of God. (John Calvin Institutes of the Christian Religion Book Book I Chapter 16. http://www.mbrem.com/calvinism/calprov.htm )

All things happen by the immediate hand of God. I treat God as Wise, I don't expect Him to die for those He chose to chuck into Hell.

...the avg Calvinist...

I am not an average Calvinist am I?

john.

 

[examiningcalvinism]

JP

JP,

Men don't giggle. No.

If not giggling, what is your reason for all of the smily faces in every single post?

Where did we hear the word of truth?

From reading the Bible or hearing a preacher. What exactly is your point?, and realize that you are commenting on Eph 1:13, so you should be able to defend it from the context. From the context, I say: heard, then believed and then sealed in Christ. But you say.....????

Not that I care but one cannot be a 4 point supralapsarian can one?

Are you pleading ignorance?

God is the Author of sin and provably so from scripture.

Can you site a comment from another Calvinist author that makes the same claim as you just did? I need the book title and page#. I cannot find anyone reputable that would make such a bizzare admission as you have just made. If I stated that Calvinism teaches what you just said, then I would be immediately be charged with grossly misrepresenting Calvinism, which then means that you grossly misrepresent Calvinism. You and Art Pink would have been best friends.

 

[johnp.]

ex.

Are you pleading ignorance?

I don't know what do you mean?

john.

 

[johnp.]

ex.

Does Pink believe God is the Athor of sin? That was the question I asked you.
I have never claimed to be a mainstream Calvinist and I always make the point that I am not as smart as the average Calvinist. I have no wish to contend for two wills or two loves in God. If God loves those He intends to burn forever then love has failed. Common grace is a common error.

Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

1CO 13:4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8 Love never fails...

I cannot find anyone reputable that would make such a bizzare admission as you have just made.

I am reputable. I'm also a bit bizzare.

john.