Isaiah on the "Free Will" of the Unregenerate Man

[MorseOp]

Thank you and convicted1for the correction. I agree that is what it says. I must have been brain dead when I wrote what I did on the order..

Thank you for your charitable spirit in receiving correction.

Blessings!

 

[MorseOp]

How can an unsaved person NOT seek after God? I agree that God must initiate before we can respond, but we all were unsaved until we were placed in Christ.

I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, but this quote cuts to the heart of the matter. I think we are, at least in some respects, in agreement. I believe that the unsaved man can seek after God, but only after God makes the first move (Eph. 2:4, 5). God can (and I believe, does) work in the life of an unbeliever to bring him/her to the point where they will hear the Gospel and believe. That period of time may take years. But is that person truly seeking God on their own or is God the one ordering events to bring them to the point of belief? Because I believe in total inability I cannot accept the fact that man seeks God apart from God first drawing him. That drawing is the work of the Spirit and is very much the process of salvation (IMHO).

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, you are not using your common sense. It is impossible to be alive until you believe and your sins forgiven, faith must precede regeneration.

This is wrong as I have clearly shown above.

As far as Romans 8, look at verse 9.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

No man is regenerated, no man is born again, spiritually alive or quickened until the Holy Spirit DWELLS IN YOU.

This passage does not say that the Holy Spirit has to "dwell" in you in order for you to be regenerate. It doesn't address ordo salutis at all.

Now you simply have to search the scriptures to see when a man receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and it is ALWAYS after first believing.

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

There are numerous different ways in which we receive the Spirit. For example, we receive his PERSON when we are SAVED.

We receive his POWER repeatedly AFTER we are saved.

We do not receive EITHER BEFORE we are saved.

But he works ON us and IN us before we are saved. Part of that work is regeneration whereby we are enabled to turn to and trust Christ.

Paul's question demands the answer that a person receives the Spirit after believing.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This verse directly says we receive the Spirit after believing.

Once again, you prove that you do not understand the issue.

NOBODY ON EARTH IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD HAS EVER BELIEVED THAT YOU RECEIVE THE SPIRIT BEFORE YOU ARE SAVED.

You constantly prove that the reason you are wrong on so many things is because you do not even know the issues- much less how they work themselves out.

Use your brain.

Get some brains, Winman.

 

[Luke2427]

The word regeneration only occurs once in the Bible, in Titus 3:5. The verse says:

“But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit” (Titus 3:4-5, ESV)

As this is the only Biblical usage of the word, any theory which puts regeneration before salvation, and thus, before faith (which is the condition of salvation), is operating from an un-Biblical definition. Titus makes it perfectly clear, and Spurgeon got it right: salvation and regeneration cannot be separated, and a man, being regenerated, is saved already.

As salvation and regeneration cannot be separated, the Calvinist will have to show from the Scriptures where anyone is said to have been regenerated/born again before they exercised repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. What saith the Scriptures? Does regeneration precede faith, or does faith precede regeneration?

“And he said to them, ‘Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.’” (Mark 16:15-16, ESV)

“But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God.” (John 1:12, ESV)

“[T]hat whoever believes in him may have eternal life. ‘For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.’” (John 3:15-16, ESV)

“Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.” (John 3:36, ESV)

“Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.” (John 5:24, ESV)

“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.” (John 5:39-40, ESV)

“I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” (John 6:51, ESV)

“So Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day … As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me.’” (John 6:53-54, 57, ESV)

“Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.’” (John 11:25, ESV)

“ut these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.” (John 20:31, ESV)

“Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses.” (Acts 13:38-39, ESV)

“And they said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” (Acts 16:31, ESV)

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.” (Romans 1:16, ESV)

“ecause, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” (Romans 10:9-10, ESV)

“For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.” (1 Cor. 1:21, ESV)

“And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” (Heb. 11:6, ESV)

In each of these cases, faith clearly precedes salvation/regeneration/the new life in Christ. But as being regenerated or born again involves the reception of the Holy Spirit, the question must be asked: Does the Holy Spirit quicken the spiritually dead before or after they believe? Again, the Scriptures are clear:

“Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’ Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.” (John 7:38-39, ESV)

“And Peter said to them, ‘Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.’” (Acts 2:38, ESV)

“Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us–for it is written, ‘Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree’– so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.” (Gal. 3:13-14, ESV)

“And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’” (Gal. 4:6, ESV)

“In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.” (Eph. 1:13-14, ESV)

As these Scriptures make perfectly clear, receiving the Holy Spirit comes after belief.

NOBODY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD BELIEVES THAT YOU RECEIVE THE SPIRIT BEFORE YOU ARE SAVED.

At the same time, no one in the history of the world has ever denied that the Holy Spirit works on and in a man BEFORE he is saved so that he CAN be saved.

You guys need to learn the issues before you waste time making long, irrelevant arguments.

 

[Luke2427]

NOBODY IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD BELIEVES THAT YOU RECEIVE THE SPIRIT BEFORE YOU ARE SAVED.

At the same time, no one in the history of the world has ever denied that the Holy Spirit works on and in a man BEFORE he is saved so that he CAN be saved.

You guys need to learn the issues before you waste time making long, irrelevant arguments.

Let me submit an addendum.

I am utilizing hyperbole in the all caps.

There have been, doubtlessly, some people who have taught that you receive the Spirit before you are saved because there have been people who have taught all kinds of nonsense.

Also, there are instances where people received the Spirit before "profession of faith" in the Bible. John the Baptist, for example, was filled with the Holy Ghost in his mother's womb. What we are talking about, though, is God's normative means.

The point is that receiving the Spirit BEFORE salvation is not necessary to have the Spirit do the work of regeneration on the totally depraved sinner so that he CAN turn to Christ in faith and be saved.

 

[Luke2427]

You are right, it could not be any clearer that your position is false. Nothing in that verse says anything remotely close to what you have said. Nothing divides regeneration from salvation. You have made it clear that you are reading into scripture what is not there. It does say that those who are born again will and do believe in Jesus and the Father. Trying to pull anything else out of that passage is to do violence tot he text and add to the Word of God. Regeneration making faith possible is not even in view in this passage.

Thanks for clearing that up.

No one is trying to "divide" them.

What we are doing is pointing out to you that one precedes the other.

It is called in theological terms the ordo salutis.

That verse absolutely does prove that regeneration precedes faith.

 

[Luke2427]

Actually the passage you presented shows that regeneration, the New Birth, is the work of God the Holy Spirit he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy. There is no mention of faith or repentance as a prerequisite.

I fail to understand why people will not believe what Jesus Christ tells us in John 3 regarding the New Birth and in Ephesians 2:4-6[NASB]

4. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5. even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6. and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus,

This simply states that God made us alive because He loved us and He made us alive while we were still dead in our transgressions. And who are those he loves. Scripture tells us in Ephesians 1:3-6:

3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

No one who believes the Doctrines of Grace separates regeneration and salvation any more than they separate salvation and glorification. Even those on this Board who believe in the sovereignty of "free will" choose not to divorce glorification from salvation. I believe they call themselves one point Calvinists. They are not ashamed to use that pejorative, Calvinist, in this instance.:smilewinkgrin:

One additional point: I have seen no indication by anyone who believes the Doctrines of Grace reject faith as an integral part of Salvation. I believe it was the reformers, Doctrines of Grace people, who, after the dark ages, insisted on Justification by Faith Alone.

Well said.

 

[Winman]

Let me submit an addendum.

I am utilizing hyperbole in the all caps.

There have been, doubtlessly, some people who have taught that you receive the Spirit before you are saved because there have been people who have taught all kinds of nonsense.

Also, there are instances where people received the Spirit before "profession of faith" in the Bible. John the Baptist, for example, was filled with the Holy Ghost in his mother's womb. What we are talking about, though, is God's normative means.

The point is that receiving the Spirit BEFORE salvation is not necessary to have the Spirit do the work of regeneration on the totally depraved sinner so that he CAN turn to Christ in faith and be saved.

You use the words "regeneration" and "saved" as though they are different things. To be regenerated is to be saved, even Spurgeon said this.

You personally said a few weeks ago that you believed a person can be regenerated "a long time" before they are "saved". Would you please explain in detail exactly what you meant when you said this?

Regenerated literally means to be "generated" or made alive "again". No one can be alive again until their sins have been washed away. And no one can have their sins washed away until they believe on Jesus.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus himself said unless a person believes they shall die in their sins, so how is it possible to be spiritually alive before you believe?

 

[Luke2427]

You use the words "regeneration" and "saved" as though they are different things. To be regenerated is to be saved, even Spurgeon said this.

Spurgeon believed regeneration precedes faith just like I do.

That quote from Spurgeon that you and Jerome keep posting is taken out of context as we have shown you numerous times.

In some cases "regeneration" is used as a synonym for salvation. But technically speaking it is not a synonym- it is a part of it.

You personally said a few weeks ago that you believed a person can be regenerated "a long time" before they are "saved". Would you please explain in detail exactly what you meant when you said this?

I explained it when I said it. To do so again is to let you off the hook for the exposition above that you cannot answer where it is shown that the Bible teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

Regenerated literally means to be "generated" or made alive "again". No one can be alive again until their sins have been washed away. And no one can have their sins washed away until they believe on Jesus.

Wrong, as I have shown above.

Jhn 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Jesus himself said unless a person believes they shall die in their sins, so how is it possible to be spiritually alive before you believe?

That is absolutely HORRIBLE hermeneutics yet again.

The "die" there is talking about physical death.

 

[quantumfaith]

What about the 20+ other verses he listed that DO mention faith, repentance, belief, etc.?

Not to mention, there is no implication that salvation is not the work of God. This accusation of "works or righteousness" is a dead horse that keeps being trotted out over and over.

 

[Winman]

Spurgeon believed regeneration precedes faith just like I do.

I am not so sure, look what he said in The Warrant of Faith;

In our own day certain preachers assure us that a man must he regenerated before we may bid him believe in Jesus Christ; some degree of a work of grace in the heart being, in their judgment, the only warrant to believe. This also is false. It takes away a gospel for sinners and offers us a gospel for saints. It is anything hut a ministry of free grace.

That quote from Spurgeon that you and Jerome keep posting is taken out of context as we have shown you numerous times.

Spurgeon was quite clear that he considered regeneration and being saved to be the same thing;

If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already,

Spurgeon is very clear here that a man who is regenerated is saved already.

In some cases "regeneration" is used as a synonym for salvation. But technically speaking it is not a synonym- it is a part of it.

I have noticed that to a Calvinist words can mean anything they want them to mean at any particular time, whatever is convenient.

I explained it when I said it. To do so again is to let you off the hook for the exposition above that you cannot answer where it is shown that the Bible teaches that regeneration precedes faith.

You did not explain it, and I can completely understand why you do not want to it explain it now.

Wrong, as I have shown above.

You haven't shown anyone wrong except in your own mind.

That is absolutely HORRIBLE hermeneutics yet again.

The "die" there is talking about physical death.

You are correct, Jesus was speaking of physical death, and he said that if a person does not believe, they will die in their sins and be lost. So, how can any man be spiritually alive until he believes on Jesus and his sins are forgiven?

You Calvinists can't seem to understand that it is sin that causes spiritual death. Adam and Eve were spiritually alive until they sinned. Once they sinned they spiritually died.

Until a man believes, he remains spiritually dead in all his trespasses and sins. He cannot possibly be spiritually alive until he believes on Jesus and his sins are taken away.

You teach a man can be spiritually alive for "a long time" before he believes and his sins forgiven. This is utterly illogical and impossible. But worse, your doctrine denies Jesus Christ, because it teaches a man has spiritual life before he believes on Jesus. This is life without Christ. Serious error.

 

[Luke2427]

I am not so sure, look what he said in The Warrant of Faith;





Spurgeon was quite clear that he considered regeneration and being saved to be the same thing;



Spurgeon is very clear here that a man who is regenerated is saved already.

Wrong.

Here is Spurgeon as he preached his famous sermon "Faith and Regeneration".

We must now pass on to show that WHEREVER IT (faith) EXISTS IT IS THE PROOF OF REGENERATION. There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul, and there never will be while the world standeth.

He then illustrates:

How know we that the new-born child lives except by its cry? Yet a child's cry—what a simple sound it is! how readily could it be imitated! a clever workman could with pipes and strings easily deceive us; yet was there never a child's cry in the world but what it indicated the mysteries of breathing, heart-beating, blood-flowing, and all the other wonders which come with life itself. Do you see yonder person just drawn out of the river? Does she live? Yes, life is there. Why? Because the lungs still heave. But does it not seem an easy thing to make lungs heave? A pair of billows blown into them, might not that produce the motion? Ah, yes, the thing is easily imitated after a sort; but no lungs heave except where life is.

He concludes that great paragraph with this:

Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate.

This is what the Bible teaches. It is what Spurgeon believed. It is what you ought to believe.

I have noticed that to a Calvinist words can mean anything they want them to mean at any particular time, whatever is convenient.

No one I have ever known is worse at this practice than you.

You take, for example, the word "regeneration" which has it's own definition and strip it of it's definition and replace it with the definition for salvation.

You do this kind of thing constantly.

You did not explain it, and I can completely understand why you do not want to it explain it now.

I explained it just a few posts above. You ignored it because you cannot answer it.

You haven't shown anyone wrong except in your own mind.

I have shown you to be grossly wrong in anyone's mind who is at all thoughtful and objective.

You are correct, Jesus was speaking of physical death, and he said that if a person does not believe, they will die in their sins and be lost. So, how can any man be spiritually alive until he believes on Jesus and his sins are forgiven?

You have to have life to maintain life. You have to be made alive so that you can live. You cannot live unless you are made alive.

You will die in your sins unless you believe. You cannot believe unless you are made alive.

It's not that complicated.

You Calvinists can't seem to understand that it is sin that causes spiritual death. Adam and Eve were spiritually alive until they sinned. Once they sinned they spiritually died.

Until a man believes, he remains spiritually dead in all his trespasses and sins. He cannot possibly be spiritually alive until he believes on Jesus and his sins are taken away.

Wrong.

He is dead until he is made alive so that he can believe. This is what the Bible teaches as I have shown you several posts ago.

You teach a man can be spiritually alive for "a long time" before he believes and his sins forgiven. This is utterly illogical and impossible. But worse, your doctrine denies Jesus Christ, because it teaches a man has spiritual life before he believes on Jesus. This is life without Christ. Serious error.

It does not deny Jesus Christ- it denies the efficacy of a dead man's faith. Jesus Christ is the one who makes regeneration possible.

 

[Winman]

We must now pass on to show that WHEREVER IT (faith) EXISTS IT IS THE PROOF OF REGENERATION. There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul, and there never will be while the world standeth.

He is not saying regeneration precedes faith here Luke, you are reading your Calvinist doctrine into his statement. He is simply saying when a person believes it is proof of regeneration. I would agree with that. The moment a person believes they are born again, they are regenerated. It is impossible to believe and not be regenerated.

But he is not saying regeneration precedes faith, in fact, if you notice, he mentions faith first.

The scriptures say faith precedes regeneration;

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This verse clearly says a person must first believe to have life. You even admitted a few weeks ago that this verse "appears" to say that. It doesn't just appear to say this Luke, that is EXACTLY what it says. And Quantum listed nearly 20 verses that ALL said a person must first believe to have life. How can ignore so much scripture, when there is not one verse that says you must have life to believe? You can't show it, because it doesn't exist.

Now, it is true that a baby has life before it cries, but that does not negate the many scriptures that ALL say a person must believe to have life.

Before a baby has life, the two parents have to come together. Likewise, to be born again a person's spirit must come into union with the Holy Spirit, and they become one spirit.

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

It takes TWO to "join". When we believe, our spirit is washed of it's sins and married to the Holy Spirit. They become one spirit, a new creation. It is like physical birth, when two parents come together, a new creation is born. A child is part of it's father, and part of it's mother, but it is a individual, a new creation. We are not our mother and father.

Likewise, when our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit we become a new creation. We are not God, but we are partakers of the divine nature.

2 Pet 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

I showed you Romans 8:9 before that shows a person is regenerated after they believe. Until a person has the indwelling Spirit, he is natural, he is "in the flesh", he is not spiritual.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Until a person has the indwelling Holy Spirit, he is still "in the flesh", he is still a natural man. No man is spiritual until he has the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Then I showed you numerous verses (Gal 3:2, Eph 1:13, Acts 2:28-29, Acts 19:3) that ALL show a person receives the Spirit after believing.

This proves the natural man, or the man in the flesh can understand the simple gospel and believe, and when he does he receives the Holy Spirit and becomes a "spiritual" man.

No man is spiritual, quickened, born again, regenerated until he receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and no man receives the Spirit until he first believes.

 

[psalms109:31]

"There is no life in God the Father for a sinner; there is no life in God the Spirit for a sinner apart from Jesus. The life of a sinner is in Christ. If you take the Father apart from the Son, though he loves his elect, and decrees that they shall live, yet life is only in his Son. If you take God the Spirit apart from Jesus Christ, though it is the Spirit that gives us spiritual life, yet it is life in Christ, life in the Son. We dare not, and cannot apply in the first place, either to God the Father, or to God the Holy Ghost for spiritual life. The first thing we are led to do when God brings us out of Egypt is to eat the Passover—the very first thing. The first means whereby we get life is by feeding upon the flesh and blood of the Son of God; living in him, trusting on him, believing in his grace and power. Our second thought was—there is life in Christ."

C. H. Spurgeon

John 6 :
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’[Isaiah 54:13] Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me...53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day...63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[Or are Spirit; or are spirit] and life...66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.

68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

Peter got it right praise Jesus. Following a crowd does not mean you are drawn by the Father only listen and learning from the word of God ,the word of life, the word we are born again by, the word that regenerates us, the word that enable's us. Do not walk away from the only life you have Jesus Christ. Regeneration before faith is ridiculous.


Luke 10:21
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

 

[Luke2427]

He is not saying regeneration precedes faith here Luke, you are reading your Calvinist doctrine into his statement. He is simply saying when a person believes it is proof of regeneration.

Proof always follows. It NEVER precedes.


And you ignored this quote by Spurgeon:

"Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate."

I would agree with that. The moment a person believes they are born again, they are regenerated. It is impossible to believe and not be regenerated.

That's right. It is impossible to believe and not be regenerated. Just like it is impossible to walk and not have legs and it is impossible to sing and not have vocal chords and it is impossible to breathe and not have lungs and it is impossible to think and not have a brain.

Legs precedes walking.
Vocal chords precede singing.
Lungs precede breathing.
Brains precede thinking.

And regeneration precedes faith.


The scriptures say faith precedes regeneration;

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

This verse clearly says a person must first believe to have life. You even admitted a few weeks ago that this verse "appears" to say that. It doesn't just appear to say this Luke, that is EXACTLY what it says.

Wrong. Because the Bible teaches clearly elsewhere that regeneration precedes faith as I have shown just a few posts back.

You must be made alive so that you can live. Why can you not get this?

And Quantum listed nearly 20 verses the ALL said a person must first believe to have life. How can ignore so much scripture, when there is not one verse that says you must have life to believe?

No. You are either ignorant or dishonest. Quantum posted about 20 verses that shows that receiving the Holy Spirit happens AFTER salvation. This was a pointless exercise since no one on earth denies that.

You can't show it, because it doesn't exist.

I HAVE shown it in this very thread. I have shown where the Bible teaches that regeneration both MUST and DOES precede faith.

You have not even attempted to respond to those posts in any meaningful manner because you can't.

Now, it is true that a baby has life before it cries, but that does not negate the many scriptures that ALL say a person must believe to have life.

A person DOES have to believe to have life just like a baby has to breath to have life, Winman. Why can you not get this?

Life precedes breath but a baby, once born must breath in order to have life (continuously).

1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

And??

It takes TWO to "join". When we believe, our spirit is washed of it's sins and married to the Holy Spirit.

Yep. And???

They become one spirit, a new creation. It is like physical birth, when two parents come together, a new creation is born.

Ok. And???? You keep saying things that are not in contention.

A child is part of it's father, and part of it's mother, but it is a individual, a new creation. We are not our mother and father.

Likewise, when our spirit is joined to the Holy Spirit we become a new creation. We are not God, but we are partakers of the divine nature.

And??? What's your point, Winman. Everybody already agrees on these things.

You don't know the issues. Calvinists agree with all of this.

You become one with Christ AFTER salvation. So what????

Everybody believes that.

That has nothing to do with the fact that the Holy Spirit works on and in a person BEFORE he believes enabling him TO believe.

Part of that work is regeneration as I have clearly shown in posts you continue to run and hide from.

 

[Luke2427]

I showed you Romans 8:9 before that shows a person is regenerated after they believe. Until a person has the indwelling Spirit, he is natural, he is "in the flesh", he is not spiritual.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Until a person has the indwelling Holy Spirit, he is still "in the flesh", he is still a natural man. No man is spiritual until he has the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Then I showed you numerous verses (Gal 3:2, Eph 1:13, Acts 2:28-29, Acts 19:3) that ALL show a person receives the Spirit after believing.

This proves the natural man, or the man in the flesh can understand the simple gospel and believe, and when he does he receives the Holy Spirit and becomes a "spiritual" man.

No man is spiritual, quickened, born again, regenerated until he receives the indwelling Holy Spirit, and no man receives the Spirit until he first believes.

You keep making this irrelevant point that receiving the Spirit happens after salvation.

It does not seem to matter how many times I tel you that we Calvinists already believe that.

Are you dumb or are you not reading these posts thoroughly?

 

[OldRegular]

Spurgeon on Regeneration

It appears that those who believe in "freewill" as well as those who believe the Doctrines of Grace like to quote Spurgeon.

SO! From: http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0130.htm

Regeneration: A Sermon (No. 130) Delivered on Sabbath Morning, May 3,1857, by the REV. C. H. Spurgeon at the Music Hall, Royal Surrey Gardens.

Neither is a man regenerated, we say, in the next place, by his own exertions. A man may reform himself very much, and that is well and good; let all do that. A man may cast away many vices, forsake many lusts in which he indulged, and conquer evil habits; but no man in the world can make himself to be born in God; though he should struggle never so much, he could never accomplish what is beyond his power. And, mark you, if he could make himself to be born again still he would not enter heaven, because there is another point in the condition which he would have violated—"unless a man be born of the Spirit, he can not see the kingdom of God." So that the best exertions of the flesh do not reach this high point, the being born again of the Spirit of God.

And now we must say, that regeneration consists in this. God the Holy Spirit, in a supernatural manner—mark, by the word supernatural I mean just what it strictly means; supernatural, more than natural—works upon the hearts of men, and they by the operations of the divine Spirit become regenerate men; but without the Spirit they never can be regenerated. And unless God the Holy Spirit, who "worketh in us to will and to do," should operate upon the will and the conscience, regeneration is an absolute impossibility, and therefore so is salvation."What!" says one, "do you mean to say that God absolutely interposes in the salvation of every man to make him regenerate?" I do indeed; in the salvation of every person there is an actual putting forth of the divine power, whereby the dead sinner is quickened, the unwilling sinner is made willing, the desperately hard sinner has his conscience made tender; and he who rejected God and despised Christ, is brought to cast himself down at the feet of Jesus. This is called fanatical doctrine, mayhap; that we can not help; it is scriptural doctrine, that is enough for us. "Except a man be born of the Spirit he can not see the kingdom of God; that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." If you like it not, quarrel with my Master, not with me; I do but simply declare his own revelation, that there must be in your heart something more than you can ever work there. There must be a divine operation; call it a miraculous operation, if you please; it is in some sense so. There must be a divine interposition, a divine working, a divine influence, or else, do what you may, without that you perish, and are undone; "for except a man be born again, be can not see the kingdom of God." The change is radical; it gives us new natures, makes us love what we hated and hate what we loved, sets us in a new road; makes our habits different, our thoughts different, makes us different in private, and different in public. So that being in Christ it is fulfilled: "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature; old things are passed away, behold all things are become new."​

 

[convicted1]

In regards to regeneration preceding faith, or vice versa, apparently CHS was just plain ole "wishy-washy". J/K


In all sincerity, could the sermon that both sides have bandied about have been a sermon from earlier in his life, and over time, changed his mind? He does seem to have two entirely different views that are being expressed. Could he have seen regeneration post-faith, and then over time, come to the pre-faith regenration? I ask these in all sincerity. Does anyone know?

 

[convicted1]

Thank you and convicted1for the correction. I agree that is what it says. I must have been brain dead when I wrote what I did on the order..

Brain dead? Naw!! :sleep: Asleep at the wheel? :sleep: Well.......... :laugh:

 

[convicted1]

First off, thanks for the "civilness" in your posts to me. :thumbs:

I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, but this quote cuts to the heart of the matter. I think we are, at least in some respects, in agreement.

That's good to know.

I believe that the unsaved man can seek after God, but only after God makes the first move (Eph. 2:4, 5).

I agree with all of this wholeheartedly.

God can (and I believe, does) work in the life of an unbeliever to bring him/her to the point where they will hear the Gospel and believe. That period of time may take years.

I also agree with this wholeheartedly.

But is that person truly seeking God on their own or is God the one ordering events to bring them to the point of belief?

God is the One who draws any sinner to Himself. However, many will not want to come because of their love of self, pride, haughtiness, etc. Remember, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace to the humble.

Because I believe in total inability I cannot accept the fact that man seeks God apart from God first drawing him.

Can't say that I disagree with this, either. But I do see that man, in a dead state of sin(spiritually seperated from God due to their sins, and not a "lifeless corpse"), can, and does hear God. The dead shall hear, and they that hear, shall live.

That drawing is the work of the Spirit and is very much the process of salvation (IMHO).

We see a triune God at work in salvation. God the Father, sent God the Son, to die for sinful man. When God the Son was received back in heaven to God the Father, God the Spirit came down, and now dwells in the soul of the saved. In reality, we have a triune God dwelling in us, because we don't get one part of the Godhead w/o the other Two.