Islam and Pedophilia

[Will]

One of the amazing facts about Islam is how widespread pedophilia is accepted as a common practice in the Islamic world. It all started with the prophet Muhammad and his child bride Aisha.

We read the following from Sahih Bukahari, vol. 5, bk. 63, no. 3894, "Narrated Aisha: My marriage (wedding) contract with the Prophet was written when I was girl of six (year)...My mother, Umm Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became normal, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age."

"Narrated Urwa: 'The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years."

What does the Qur'an say about child brides. Well in Sura 65:4 it says this about the rules for divorce: "The same shall apply to those who have not yet menstruated."

What prospects do you think prepubescent divorcees had/have?

What do Islamic apologists say about the subject? What I could find is a large range of opinions. This site, http://www.submission.org/women/Aisha.html states that the "source of the above information can only be the Hadiths books which are nothing but lies attributed to prophet Muhammad. It has no support in Quran. " This ignores the fact that the Hadith books are accepted by the vast majority of Islamic people.

The site leaves itself an out though as far as what age is acceptable however when they go on to state, "As we all know maturity varies from one continent to another, from the hot countries to the cold ones, from one sex to another, and from one civilization to another. God knows that and he deliberately and out of His mercy, did not put an age rule for us. He left it for every community to decide while following the general rules of maturity supplied in the Quran."

Clearly the Qur'an allows for the divorce of prebubescent wives and their marriages are common throughout the Islamic world.

This site, http://www.muslim-answers.org/aishah.htm doesn't deny Aisha was 9 but proudly defends the fact. They say that "At this point, it should be mentioned that it is absolutely pointless from an Islamic standpoint to say that the age of 'Aishah is "not found in the Qur'an", since the textual sources of Islam are made up of BOTH the Qur'an and the Sunnah (Hadith) - and the Qur'an tells us that."

They go on to state "This evidence having been established, there doesn't seem much room for debate about 'Aishah's age amongst believing Muslims. Until someone proves that in the Arabic language "nine years old" means something other than "nine years old", then we should all be firm in our belief that she was "nine years old"

They go on to attack Christians as being hypocritical for criticizing Muhammed for consumating his marriage with his 9 year old bride. It gets a little old after a couple thousand words.

Let's look at today. The Ayatollah Khomeini at 28 married a ten year old. She became pregnant and had a miscarriage at age 11. Khomeini taught that marriage to a girl before her first menstrual period was "a divine blessing." My source for Khomeini and his child bride is Robert Spencer, a leader in the Christian-Islamic Forum for the past 20 years, in his excellent book "Islam Unveiled." The original source is Amir Taheri, prominent Iranian journalist in exile, who wrote the definitive biography of Khomeini, "The Spirit of Allah." The legal age for a girl to marry in Iran is 9.

UNICEF reports that as many as 50% of all girls are married in Bangladesh and Afghanistan by the age of 13. This is prevalent throughout the Islamic world.

Andrew Bushnell reported in March of 2002 that "in Egypt 29% of married adolescents have been beaten by their husbands; of those, 41 % were beaten during pregnancy. A study in Jordan indicated that 26% of reported cases of domestic violence were committed against wives under 18."

Lisa Beyer of Time magazine in November 2001 reported that the practice of marrying adolescents in Islamic countries, "has occasionally been exploited by pedophiles, who marry poor young girls from the provinces, use and then abandon them."

[ February 06, 2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Will ]

 

[Johnv]

Yes, you'll find that less advance countries often still cling to marrying at an early age. Christianity and Judaism went through this at one time as well. Even Mary was likely 13 when she was married, which was the custom then, but would be unacceptible now. Generally, it seems that as countries move out of third wirld status, they tend to abandon pracrices such as these. Islam in the US and Canada, for example, don't adhere to this practice, even though many states allow the marriage of minors with parental consent.

And then there's Jerry Lee Lewis

 

[Will]

Johnv,

Are you saying that there is no difference in this area between Islam and Christianity?

Are Muhammed and Jesus comparable here?

Are the Bible and the Qur'an comparable here?

Are the teachings of Christianity and Islam similar at all?

How do you know Mary was likely married at 13?

Don't we know and isn't it acknowledged by the vast majority of Islamic adherents that Muhammed consumated his marriage with a 9 year old?

As I have shown this is compatible with Islamic teachings, can you show where it is compatible with Christian teachings?

You wrote,

>Generally, it seems that as countries move out of third wirld status, they tend to abandon pracrices such as these. Islam in the US and Canada, for example, don't adhere to this practice, even though many states allow the marriage of minors with parental consent.<

Didn't you read the quote and link I posted to a U.S. based Islamic apologist site that says it's up to the individual person to judge when the age is appropriate for marriage?

 

[Netcurtains3]

Did God act badly by making Mary pregnant?
God would be put in prison now for rape (in USA).

 

[Johnv]

Are you saying that there is no difference in this area between Islam and Christianity? Are Muhammed and Jesus comparable here? Are the Bible and the Qur'an comparable here? Are the teachings of Christianity and Islam similar at all?
You're trying to bait me into a pro-anti Islam arguement. That was not my purpose.

How do you know Mary was likely married at 13?
That was the common Jewish practice at the time. If she had not gotten married until she was 18, she would have been considered an old maid.

Don't we know and isn't it acknowledged by the vast majority of Islamic adherents that Muhammed consumated his marriage with a 9 year old?
Yes, it was a common practice at the time. I find it reprehsensible today, but it was not then. Likewise, I don't chastise Solomin for having a village of wives and concubines, but that practice is also unacceptible today.

As I have shown this is compatible with Islamic teachings, can you show where it is compatible with Christian teachings?
It's compatible with Muslim traditions, but is not compatible with American Muslim beliefs.

Didn't you read the quote and link I posted to a U.S. based Islamic apologist site that says it's up to the individual person to judge when the age is appropriate for marriage?
Is there anything biblically that says differently? In the US, there are thousands of marriages every year amongst people under the age of 18, and many of them in Christian comunities. That doesn't make it a typical Christian practice. Nor does it mean that marriages under 18 are automatically taboo.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Johnv:
That was the common Jewish practice at the time. If she had not gotten married until she was 18, she would have been considered an old maid.

Please provide some proof that it was the common Jewish practice to marry at 13.

Originally posted by Johnv:
Yes, it was a common practice at the time. I find it reprehsensible today, but it was not then. Likewise, I don't chastise Solomin for having a village of wives and concubines, but that practice is also unacceptible today.

You are glossing over the fact that it was their "Prophet" who married a 9 year old. This provides millions of Islamic followers justification to continue the practice today. I do chastise Solomon for having a village of wives and concubines and the bible points out how this sin helped lead to his downfall.

Originally posted by Johnv:
It's compatible with Muslim traditions, but is not compatible with American Muslim beliefs.

As the links I provided have shown it is compatible with American Islamic beliefs. They are constrained by American Law and the fact that they are a minority in this country. Everywhere they have become a majority in a country this always leads to their theocratic law being enacted. Why would we think they would act any differently if they became a majority here?

Originally posted by Johnv:
Is there anything biblically that says differently? In the US, there are thousands of marriages every year amongst people under the age of 18, and many of them in Christian comunities. That doesn't make it a typical Christian practice. Nor does it mean that marriages under 18 are automatically taboo.

There is no justification from Jesus for this practice. There is justification from Muhammed for this practice.

In the case of Muhammed we aren't just talking about under 18 we are talking about 9. Even in the areas where early marriages were accepted, sleeping with 9 years olds was never accepted. Muhammed was a pedophile. Their "Prophet" they follow was a pedophile. Our savior we follow was beyond reproach.

There is no provision for divorcing prepubescent wives in the bible. There is a provision for divorcing prepubescent wives in the Qur'an.

There is no provision for striking your wife in the Bible. There is a provision for striking your wife in the Qur'an.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Johnv:
You're trying to bait me into a pro-anti Islam arguement. That was not my purpose.

One more thing. Then what is your purpose? I didn't originally bring up a comparison between Christianity and Islam, you did. I respond back showing the differences and you claim I am trying now to "bait" you.

How is this possible when you started this line of discussion? If you aren't defending Islam then what are you doing? And aren't you trying to bring Christianity down to their level when you claim that Christianity and Judaism went through this problem as well (something I dispute.) What else could your purpose be?

What was your intent for comparing the two?

 

[Netcurtains3]

Hi Will,
This site is mainly read by North Americans and Europeans. In these countries Muslims are spat on, sent hate mail, the answer phones in their mosques all filled up with messages starting f***** and w***** etc.

The Natzi party in the UK sends out your above track (or more or less identical ones) and hands posts them through the letter boxes of the electorate. The BNP (the British Nazi party) is winning more and more seats. This is mirrored in France, Holland and Germany.

Do you want this Christian Baptist site to be part of the problem or part of the cure.

I would like the moderators of this site to remove this thread entirely for the sake of the people in Whitechapel High Street and Oldham who are literally getting **** in their letter boxes.

Net.

[ February 04, 2003, 05:36 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Netcurtains3:
Do you want this Christian Baptist site to be part of the problem or part of the cure.

I would like the moderators of this site to remove this thread entirely for the sake of the people in Whitechapel High Street and Oldham who are literally getting **** in their letter boxes.

Net.

You make the claim that the information I posted resembles Nazi party literature. Which part? The stories from Time Magazine, the reports from UNICEF, the quotes from the Qur'an, the quotes from the Islamic Hadith, or the links to Islamic apologetic sites?

Grow up. Learn to deal with the facts instead of trying to censor information by comparing them to Nazi information. If anyone's techniques resemble Nazis it is yours in your attempt to silence facts you can't answer.

The problem this thread addresses and deals with is the very real abuse and exploitation of young females in the Islamic world. Hiding from the truth does nothing to promote a cure, it accomplishes just the opposite.

Your call for censorship is odd. When has it worked?

Should we censor UNICEF who I quoted as well? The evidence they offer of this abuse is much more extreme then what I have pointed out.

To blame the truth being discussed for other crimes is absurd.

[edited to remove profanity from quote]

[ February 04, 2003, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Clint Kritzer ]

 

[Netcurtains3]

Will
*defamatory*

End of story.

Net.

[ February 04, 2003, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

[Will]

End of story.

Net. [/qb][/QUOTE]Well gee if Netcurtains3 says so, it must be. Give me a break. This is what pre-teenage boys on the internet do when they can't answer an intellectual challenge they call them names.

Nice Netcurtains3. Is this an effective way to silence facts you find inconvenient, by calling someone the most offensive name you can paint them with like a pouty child?

When you come on an adult board please attempt to act like an adult.

[ February 04, 2003, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

[Johnv]

Please provide some proof that it was the common Jewish practice to marry at 13.
You're kidding, aren't you? You make it sound like what I said was something new. Didn't you ever study world history and cultures in high school or college? In Hebrew culture many married at age 13, died at age 30, and there was no modern birth control, so marriage was important for children. Typically, marriages were arranged between the fathers of the boy and girl. In other cases if a man wanted a woman, he knocked on her father's tent, offered the marriage price, and took a wife. The girl had little say in the matter. If he liked the girl he might return with more money to marry some of her sisters. Women were considered property. Adultery was a violation of the husbands' property rights, not morality, and polygamy was the standard.

You are glossing over the fact that it was their "Prophet" who married a 9 year old. This provides millions of Islamic followers justification to continue the practice today.
Many Muslims use that as an excuse to do the same, but like I said earlier, Muslims in more developed countries generally abandon this practice.

I do chastise Solomon for having a village of wives and concubines and the bible points out how this sin helped lead to his downfall.
Solomon had 700 Wives and 300 Concubines. Back then, Concubinage was an official status. God rebuked Solomon not for polygamy and the concubines, but for the fact that many of his wives were non-Hebrew and these foreign wives brought idols in for worship from their pagan cultures, which was contrary to God's teaching. David committed adultery, only because Bathsheba was married. She was not one of his own women. The other 7 wives and 17 concubines that David was sleeping with were given to him by God as a blessing.

They [Muslims] are constrained by American Law and the fact that they are a minority in this country. Everywhere they have become a majority in a country this always leads to their theocratic law being enacted. Why would we think they would act any differently if they became a majority here?
It is no secret that the Muslim world today lacks models of free and open societies with a Muslim majority. But on another thread, there were listed several democratic nations with a Muslim majority. Since the development of these countries has parallelled other non-Muslim countries that became democratic, there is every reason to anticipate that democratic non-theocratic countries with a Muslim majority will be numerous.

There is no justification from Jesus for this practice.
Granted. But there is justification in the OT for the practice which were not condemned, as earlier stated.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Johnv:
You're kidding, aren't you? You make it sound like what I said was something new. Didn't you ever study world history and cultures in high school or college?

No, I am not kidding you can question my education all that you want. I presented factual evidence that Muhammed, their great “Prophet” consummated his marriage with his 9 year old bride. You then made the rather bold assertion that Mary was probably married by 13. Please provide proof, what I learned in college is that incredulity is not proof.

Originally posted by Johnv:
Many Muslims use that as an excuse to do the same, but like I said earlier, Muslims in more developed countries generally abandon this practice.

And as I have stated this is due to the fact that they are a minority and are constrained by law. In countries where they are a majority, Islamic law applies and children are taken as brides.

Originally posted by Johnv:
Solomon had 700 Wives and 300 Concubines. Back then, Concubinage was an official status. God rebuked Solomon not for polygamy and the concubines, but for the fact that many of his wives were non-Hebrew and these foreign wives brought idols in for worship from their pagan cultures, which was contrary to God's teaching. David committed adultery, only because Bathsheba was married. She was not one of his own women. The other 7 wives and 17 concubines that David was sleeping with were given to him by God as a blessing.

Where was the official status of concubinage sanctioned in the Bible? I’ll be interested to hear the scriptural basis. The Qur’an on the otherhand does provide a basis and sanction for not only polygamy but also for temporary wives. Which allows men to "marry" women for as little as one hour and then divorce these women. This is of course another way to sanction prostitution. Many of these "temporary" wives now were child brides that were abandoned by their husbands.

Where does the Bible state that David’s multiple wives and concubines were a gift from God? Certainly not in 2 Samuel 12:7-8.

You seem to be confusing the Bible reporting a practice with sanction. This is never more clear then in the book of Ecclesiastes. Far from applauding Solomon and his multiple wives, we are taught the emptiness of that life. The Qur'an on the otherhand openly endorses these activities.

Originally posted by Johnv:
It is no secret that the Muslim world today lacks models of free and open societies with a Muslim majority. But on another thread, there were listed several democratic nations with a Muslim majority. Since the development of these countries has parallelled other non-Muslim countries that became democratic, there is every reason to anticipate that democratic non-theocratic countries with a Muslim majority will be numerous.

Now its time for me to ask you your own words, "You're kidding, aren't you? Didn't you ever study world history and cultures in high school or college?" Why should we anticipate this (additional democracies?)

Middle East scholar Bernard Lewis using political scientist Samuel P. Huntington’s criteria for what makes a democratic state, finds that out of the 53 Islamic states only one has a “troubled” democracy. There were 2 now there is one, far from the trend you predict. One that is troubled out of 53 (less then 2%), hardly the basis for optimism.

The rise of the Islamic theocratic groups in Turkey, the Nurcus, the Suleymancis, the Nurs and the Fethullah Gulens threaten this wobbly democracy. In fact Necmettin Erbakan, head of a pro-Sharia (Islamic law) party was prime minister between 6/96 to 6/97. He was forced out by the army which helped preserve the democracy. With the continuing growth of the theocratic groups how long Turkey remain a democracy is anyone's guess.

Originally posted by Johnv:
Granted. But there is justification in the OT for the practice which were not condemned, as earlier stated.

Please share the scriptural basis (sanctions not just mentioning that it happened) in the Old Testament for these activities. I have provided the Qur'anic sanctions in these areas.

Again, I'm going to ask you why did you want to start this comparison between Christianity and Islam in these areas? Was it to attempt to bring Christianity down to Islam's level? If not what was your reasoning?

 

[Johnv]

I presented factual evidence that Muhammed, their great “Prophet” consummated his marriage with his 9 year old bride. You then made the rather bold assertion that Mary was probably married by 13. Please provide proof, what I learned in college is that incredulity is not proof.

I did not argue your assertion that Muhammed's wife was 9. However,you argued my assertion about Mary, but you did not refute it. Here's a link to the Christian Century Magazine which clearly states:

...the biblical narrative stresses her ordinariness...she would have been only 12 years old, maybe 13 at the time. Now, that is not nine, but in our ordinary humble lives impregnation at that age would be, shall we say, frowned upon.
Click here for the full article

Click Here for a site that puts a girl's betrothal age between 12 and 13.

Also, the Protoevangelium of James puts Mary as being betrothed at 12.

Now it's possible to assume that mary would have past her age of her first menses. While that's true of girls today, it was not in the Jews of Jesus' time, who would have not done so until closer to 14 or 15. Many societies have customs where a woman is marriageable after her first menses. Judaism at that time was not one of these societies.

And as I have stated this is due to the fact that they are a minority and are constrained by law.
The law in the US allows minors to be married with parental consent, yet you don't see an onslaught of underaged Muslim girls getting married in the US. Per capita, most underaged marriages in the US are among Protestant Christians.

Where was the official status of concubinage sanctioned in the Bible?
Since it was mentioned and not condemned, but since God condemned Solomon for taking Non-Jewish wives, it is inferred that Solomon's polygamy is sanctioned.

Didn't you ever study world history and cultures in high school or college?" Why should we anticipate this (additional democracies?)
Yes, I did, in college, and in depth. What has been happenning in the evolving Muslim world has been repeated in societies prior. It was not until a little over 200 years ago that non-theocratic democracies were taking a foothold in the world. Prior to that, the preferred governments were aristocracies and monarchies.

Again, I'm going to ask you why did you want to start this comparison between Christianity and Islam in these areas?
The original topic was Islam and pedophelia. I had no wish to drift from that topic, only to respond to your original comment about it. I reiterate that one cannot make a moral judgement about people who took young brides several hundred years ago by today's standards, whether it's Muhammed, Solomon, or Joseph. Of course I agree that underaged people should not get married, not even under 18. And I've already stated that this is still a problem in Muslim society. But I stand by my opinion that as the Muslim world evolves, this practice will be abandoned, just as it has, for the most part, in Christianity and Judaism.

I almost feel like you're trying to get me to disagree with you for the sole purpose of having a debate.

[ February 06, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Johnv:
I did not argue your assertion that Muhammed's wife was 9. However,you argued my assertion about Mary, but you did not refute it.

John, what fact is to refute? You made no factual argument and still don't. Your conjecture and that of the writer from Christian Century is irrelevant to the discussion about the fact that Muhammed consummated a marriage with a 9 year old.

The point you seem to be missing by bringing up this comparison in the first place is that no Christians are using the Bible to abuse children. Adherents of Islam are using the Qur'an to do so and have historically done so. The early church on the other hand was so attractive to women because it elevated marriage away from polygamy and concubines to monogamy.

Originally posted by Johnv:
The law in the US allows minors to be married with parental consent, yet you don't see an onslaught of underaged Muslim girls getting married in the US. Per capita, most underaged marriages in the US are among Protestant Christians.

Even if that's true (although you again offer no proof), it is not indicative of what would happen in an Islamic state however. We have 53 examples of what happens in that condition. Again, please provide proof for you above statement.

Originally posted by Johnv:
Since it was mentioned and not condemned, but since God condemned Solomon for taking Non-Jewish wives, it is inferred that Solomon's polygamy is sanctioned.

This is not logical. Please think about what you are stating. There are many things mentioned in the Bible that aren't sanctioned by God.

Also, you seem to have skipped your claim that David's wives and concubines were a "blessing from God." Please back up that previous claim.

Originally posted by Johnv:
Yes, I did, in college, and in depth. What has been happenning in the evolving Muslim world has been repeated in societies prior. It was not until a little over 200 years ago that non-theocratic democracies were taking a foothold in the world. Prior to that, the preferred governments were aristocracies and monarchies.

Please give specific examples how your claim that history is repeating itself makes any sense here. Turkey the only democracy in the Islamic world has actually become less tolerant of non-Islamic people since it became a democracy. In fact Istanbul was estimated to be over 50% Christian in 1914. Today it is estimated to be 99.9% Islamic. Whole areas of Turkey have been systematically cleansed of Jews and Christians over the last 50 years.

What other examples do we have in history of countries moving away from theocracies and actually becoming less religously tolerant as a democracy? Doesn't history show the opposite to typically be true?

Originally posted by Johnv:
The original topic was Islam and pedophelia. I had no wish to drift from that topic, only to respond to your original comment about it.

You drifted from that topic not me. You started the comparisons to Christianity. Again, I ask what was your purpose in doing that?

Originally posted by Johnv:
I reiterate that one cannot make a moral judgement about people who took young brides several hundred years ago by today's standards, whether it's Muhammed, Solomon, or Joseph.

I completely disagree. I will make a moral judgement against any man in history that sexually abuses a 9 year old girl.

Originally posted by Johnv:
Of course I agree that underaged people should not get married, not even under 18. And I've already stated that this is still a problem in Muslim society. But I stand by my opinion that as the Muslim world evolves, this practice will be abandoned, just as it has, for the most part, in Christianity and Judaism.

I almost feel like you're trying to get me to disagree with you for the sole purpose of having a debate.

John, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that this problem will lessen. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that Islam is "evolving" to a more moderate state. In fact the opposite is happening.

I assure you, I am disagreeing with you because I sincerely believe you are wrong.

 

[Johnv]

You made no factual argument and still don't.
No, I was pretty clear that Mary was about 13 when she was betrothed.

I will make a moral judgement against any man in history that sexually abuses a 9 year old girl.
She was not sexually abused according to the traditions of the time. By today's standards, she would be considered sexually abused, and not only would I agree with you, I would lead the battle charge.

Your conjecture and that of the writer from Christian Century is irrelevant...
It is completely relevant, in my opinion. Aditionally, you did not comment about my other resources, including pro Proto. of James, which was written about 70 years after the Gospels. It is specific to Mary's age being 12.

If you disagree, please tell me where in the Bible it states that my view on Mary being 12 or 13 is unbiblical. It is not, and I have cited resources. I will ask you, then, to please tell me at what age you think Mary was betrothed, and to equally support your claim.

You started the comparisons to Christianity
Actually, I brought up a comparison the OT, not to Christianity.


...you seem to be missing by bringing up this comparison in the first place is that no Christians are using the Bible to abuse children.
Perhaps not sexually, but physical abuse is common enough to be an issue. According to a representative from the Orange County Social Services Agency (and a member of my church), about 2/3 of physically battered children come from active Christian homes, and about 1/3 of those from evangelical homes. She tells me that abusive Christan families that she has counseled often cite biblical passages which call for physical punishment of children. Of course, that does NOT in any way mean that the Bibel condones such behavior.

The early church on the other hand was so attractive to women because it elevated marriage away from polygamy and concubines to monogamy. I agree that this was the way of the NT church, but in the OT society, polygamy was freely precticed and not condemned.

Even if that's true (although you again offer no proof)
The marital stitistics I cited were provided by Time, but the statistics were unfortunately not available online. You'll have to trust me on that one.

There are many things mentioned in the Bible that aren't sanctioned by God...you seem to have skipped your claim that David's wives and concubines were a "blessing from God."
David's polygamy was not simply mentioned in passing. His wives/concubines are mentioned in 1 Samuel 18:27; 19:11-18; 25:39; 25:43; 25:44; 2 Samuel 3:3; 3:4-5; 3:13-14; 5:13; 6:20-23; 12:24; and 1 Chronicles 14:3. David receives from Nathan the word of God: Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things. 2 Samuel 12:7-8

For being mentioned so many times, you'd think if it wasn't sanctioned, it would have been dealt with.

Please give specific examples how your claim that history is repeating itself makes any sense here.
It's strictly my opinion, based on what I've observed and studied. You're welcome to disagree.

However, I failed to touch on the fact that you mentioned there being only one democratic country with a Muslim majority. In fact, there are 47 nations with a Muslim majority, and of those, 11 have democracies. Click here to read the article from Crosswalk.com

I assure you, I am disagreeing with you because I sincerely believe you are wrong.
Your opinion is noted, appreciated, and welcome.

 

[Will]

John,

To address a couple of points. Do you understand the difference between your opinion and a fact? Let me give you an example, you can ask 3 people for their opinion on someone's age and get 3 differents answers. A birth announcement is a fact.

I made no claims on Mary's age. I have no claim to support. You did. Evidently you have no facts to support your claim. So I won't consider it valid.

Also, why would I a Protestant accept a Document used by the Catholic Church to "prove" the Immaculate Conception and that Mary remained a virgin her entire life? And what relevance would Mary remaining a virgin her entire life have to do with Muhammed having sex with a 9 year old?

Why would you use anecdotal evidence, which is considered meaniless for any study, from a church member to smear "evangelical" Christians? Isn't that stooping pretty low.

The article you posted on Muslim democracies uses very loose definitions for a democracy. I gave you very specific sources in this area. Please let me know which of the 11 "democracies" mentioned are worthy of optimism and give specific examples from those countries as I did for Turkey.

Also, if you look at a previous post, as predicted I knew what verses you were aluding to about David. And as predicted they have nothing to do with his wives and concubines being a "blessing from God." Now as a Christian I find such a charge a smear against God's character and take it very seriously.

Now either support your charge that they were a blessing from God or withdraw it. Stop ignoring it and address your claim on God's blessing.

[ February 06, 2003, 11:03 PM: Message edited by: Will ]

 

[Johnv]

Please, then, tell me what age you thing Mary was when she was concieved. Please also tell me, If Mary was to have been betrothed at the age of 12 or 13, do you have a personal problem with that? Also, you have not come up with any information to refute that a betrothal at that age wasn't acceptible. It assuredly was at that time.

Please tell me how you consider a document written circa 150ad to be exclusive to the Roman Catholic Church, when it did not exist at the time.

Please also tell me what your definition of a democracy is.

Finally, please tell me why you think the poloygamy of David and Solomon weren't condemned, especially given that they were mentioned with such prominence.

Again, just so you don't misunderstand my position: I am NOT in favor of polygamy or marriage of persons under 18. But I'm also not one for evaluating societies of the past by contemporary norms.

 

[Will]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Please, then, tell me what age you thing Mary was when she was concieved. Please also tell me, If Mary was to have been betrothed at the age of 12 or 13, do you have a personal problem with that? Also, you have not come up with any information to refute that a betrothal at that age wasn't acceptible. It assuredly was at that time.

I don't have an opinion on the age of Mary at the time of her betrothal. It is irrelevant to this subject. You are the one that brought it up and claimed she must have been about 13. I asked you for proof then. You have so far produced none. I still would like to know why you brought up this subject with no proof, in comparison to Muhammed sleeping with a 9 year old.

Why did you bring up this comparison?

Originally posted by Johnv:
Please tell me how you consider a document written circa 150ad to be exclusive to the Roman Catholic Church, when it did not exist at the time.

John, because if as you say it existed circa 150ad, which by the way there is no proof that it did, then it was rejected as authentic by the early church. Today it is only accepted by the Catholic Church. Can you tell me any Protestant denominations that accept it? Have you ever studied the process of how the canon was established?

Besides that you have avoided my question on how a document purporting Mary remained a virgin her entire life is relevant to Muhammed defiling a 9 year old. How is it?

Do you accept Mary remained a virgin her entire life? Honestly. I've never met a Baptist that did.

Originally posted by Johnv:
Please also tell me what your definition of a democracy is.

I'll tell you what Huffington's definition is, which is commonly used by Political Scientists, it's the successful change of 2 separate elected governments within a particular nation.

What are your standards? You posted a claim that there are 11 democracies in Islamic states. Which ones are they? Let's look at them and evaluate them.

Originally posted by Johnv:
Finally, please tell me why you think the poloygamy of David and Solomon weren't condemned, especially given that they were mentioned with such prominence.

So prove a negative in other words. No thanks. John, seriously a good course in logic might be helpful.

Originally posted by Johnv:
Again, just so you don't misunderstand my position: I am NOT in favor of polygamy or marriage of persons under 18. But I'm also not one for evaluating societies of the past by contemporary norms.

And neither did I evaluate societies of the past by contemporary norms. Rather I showed that this behavior has existed in a continuum from Muhammed until this day within Islamic society. You for some reason made the comparison of the Old Testament with Modern Islam. I still don't know why. You have been unwilling to explain why.

Also, let me try once again. You made the claim that David's wives and concubines were a "blessing from God." If you can support this claim do so.

If not withdraw this claim as it is a slander on God's character?

Why would a Christian misrepresent the Bible to cast God in a negative light in defense of Islam?