Islam trying to be the worlds pariah

[mioque]

I think the following bits of Huffington's blog are worth repeating here.

"The trouble with this line of reasoning is that terrorists have never needed an Iraq debacle to justify their violent jihads. What exactly was the Iraq of 1993, when Islamic radicals tried to blow up the World Trade Center? Or of 2000, when the USS Cole was attacked? Hell, that assault took place after U.S. military intervention saved thousands of Muslims in Bosnia.

If staying out of Iraq protected anyone from terrorism, then why did "insurgents" last year kidnap two journalists from France -- the most anti-war, anti-Bush nation in the West? Even overt solidarity with the people of Iraq, demonstrated by CARE's top relief worker in the area, Margaret Hassan, didn't shield her from assassination."

 

[church mouse guy]

Huffington deserves to be ignored and not just for her profanity but for her floundering. She is a smart lady but she has no anchor. I feel sorry for her for her terrible personal life but I think that she should settle down and get out of politics for which she seems to have no knack. Sorry, Mioque.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

CMG,

I think if you read that again, you will find that she is saying the same thing that Bush and conservatives have been saying for several years since entering this war...that terrorism is not America's fault. I normally think Huffington is pretty nutty, but here, she is dead on.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[church mouse guy]

I agree, Joseph, that she is correct on this issue, but she has been all over the political spectrum. I think that she is pretty and quite intelligent but I think that she should retire from politics. I don't care for her profanity in the instance quoted.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by church mouse guy:
I don't care for her profanity in the instance quoted.

I agree.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Daisy]

Originally posted by jet11:
When is the last time you saw a Buddhist claim responsibility for a terrorist bombing?

Are you familiar with the Tamil Tigers? Informative Link

Jews always retaliate to attacks against their people.

Whatever that means.

Islam is a perverted religion period.

It denies the deity of Christ, sure, but otherwise it's human nature that is perverted, not one particular religion.

You are right. So-called Christians have taken things to extremes. But have you ever heard Christian leaders stand up and support such action.

Well, yeah. Definitely depending on who you mean by "Christian leaders" - leaders who are Christian or heads of churches.

I have not.

I suspect selective hearing is responsible. That and cognitive dissonance.

Muslim clerics, Muhlah's, etc. support the attacks.

Some do, some don't. Is that too nuancy for you?

I believe there is a big difference.

Yes, evidently you do.

 

[church mouse guy]

Daisy, I know that you have said that you like to debate so let me quote you, "It denies the deity of Christ, sure, but otherwise it's human nature that is perverted, not one particular religion."

Tell me, Daisy, do you agree with the Islamic teachings about women? Huh? Could it be that some religions are especially perverted?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

CMG,

Two questions:

1. What does Islam teach about women?

2. Do all Muslims teach the same thing about women?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[church mouse guy]

From Answering Islam, Joseph:

"While it is true that Muhammad raised the status of Arabian women in some respects,...we cannot let this fact cloud certain other issues, namely, (1) that Muhammad permitted husbands to beat their wives, (2) that he repeatedly proclaimed the inferiority of women’s intellectual abilities, (3) that he taught that women’s prospects for the afterlife are extremely bleak, and (4) that, according to Muhammad, it is acceptable for men to rape their female captives. When combined with the above passages describing Muhammad’s beneficial impact on society, these four facts allow us to arrive at a more accurate and well-rounded picture of Muhammad’s view of women."

Islam has human rights abuse built into the theological system. That is the reason that any Islamic country has to separate Islam from the government as Turkey did in order to survive.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

There is, I think, an alternative to seprating, although I agree it would be wonderful if everyone converted to Christianity. The alternative is that they reform their position on human rights and interpret their Koran differently, as Irshad Manji and others do. It cannot be denied that just as Christianity has had extremists used the Bible for evil purposes, so the same could be said of Islam, and probably every other religion in the world. That does not mean that all Christians are terrorists, and neither does it mean that all Muslims are terrorists. And neither does it mean that Muslims have to reject Islam in order not to be considered terrorists. They do need to reject Extremist Islam, just as we should reject extremisy Christianity.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[church mouse guy]

It's more than just that. Christianity teaches love your enemies and pray for them.

Islam teaches that your enemy has to convert to Islam or die. It is built into the Koran.

I don't have a copy of the Koran because you have special rules for handling it and because my toilet is not like those at Gitmo in which Newsweek reported that one could flush a whole Koran down--what a toilet! I would like to flush Korans all day long!

The post is long so I would advise you to visit www.answeringislam.org for yourself, Joseph, and read the truth about Islam. Another area of human rights abuse built into Islam is that of mistreatment of sodomites.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

After so much exploring , my personal interpretation of the Koran leads me to three recurring messages. First, only God knows fully the truth of anything. Second, God alone can punish unbelievers, which makes sense given that only God knows what true belief is. (And considering the Koran’s mountain range of moods, it really would take the Almighty to know how it all hangs together.) Human beings must warn against corrupt practices, but that’s all we can do to encourage piety: warn. Third, our resulting humility sets us free to ponder God’s will — without any obligation to toe a dictated line. “Let there be no compulsion in religion,” states a voice in chapter 2 of the Koran. “Unto your religion, unto me my religion,” echoes another voice in chapter 109. In-between, there’s this: “If God had pleased, he would have made you all one people. But he has done otherwise...” Ain’t that the truth.

My interpretation sheds light on why I, as a Muslim, can’t stay quiet about Islam’s supremacists, whether they’re extreme like Osama bin Laden or mainstream like my madressa teacher, Mr. Khaki. After reaching their own conclusions “without compulsion,” they turn around and prevent others from doing the same. At that point, the Koranically decreed duty to “warn” about practices that try the faith morphs into the Koranically denied permission to intimidate. By my reading, we should not only enjoy the freedom to explore; we have to ensure that this freedom exists for everyone. Anything less undermines God’s jurisdiction as the supreme judge and jury. Such individual, independent reasoning is logical, potentially righteous, and entirely compatible with the ideals I hold as a Westerner.

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/letters.html

This is certainly evidence that reform is taking hold of at least some Muslims. If this interpretation of their own Koran and reform leads them away from terrorism, then should we not encourage these types of reforms instead of holding on to the rage and fear created by past experiences and stating flatly that all Muslims are terrorists and cannot be anything but terrorists unless they leave Islam?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[ASLANSPAL]

I thought this was classic from Ms. Irshad Manji
when she was 13 years old she took on her teacher.

'The Trouble With Islam': Reform From Within
By ANDREW SULLIVAN
THE TROUBLE WITH ISLAM
A Muslim's Call for Reform in Her Faith.
By Irshad Manji.

here is one anecdote in this bracing little book that still makes me crack a smile long after reading it. As a 13-year-old student attending a madrasa in suburban Vancouver, Irshad Manji, a Muslim immigrant of South Asian origins from Uganda, was subjected to a familar tirade against the Jews by her teacher -- to whom she gives the name ''Mr. Khaki.'' Unfazed by the disapproval she knew she would garner and completely unsuited to the kind of supine deference her teacher was obviously asking for, Irshad began to pose some tough questions:

''I remember asking why Prophet Muhammad would have commanded his army to kill an entire Jewish tribe when the Koran supposedly came to him as a message of peace. Mr. Khaki couldn't cope. He shot me a look of contempt, gave an annoyed wave of the hand and cut short history class, only to hold Koran study next. Me and my big mouth.''

But Irshad wasn't done with Mr. Khaki. She kept asking awkward questions throughout the year. A kind of Lisa Simpson of Islam, one day she simply demanded that Mr. Khaki provide some evidence of the alleged Jewish plot. She recalls:

''What he provided was an ultimatum: 'Either you believe or get out. And if you get out, get out for good.'

'' 'Really? That's it?'

'' 'That's it.'

''With my temples throbbing and my neck sweating under the itchy polyester chador, I stood up. As I crossed the partition checkpoint, I could have uncovered my head for all the boys to see, but I didn't want to risk the humiliation of being chased out by an even more scandalized Mr. Khaki. All I could think to do was fling open the madrasa's hefty metal door and yell, 'Jesus Christ!' A memorable exit, I hoped.''

 

[church mouse guy]

Originally posted by Joseph_Botwinick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />After so much exploring , my personal interpretation of the Koran leads me to three recurring messages. First, only God knows fully the truth of anything. Second, God alone can punish unbelievers, which makes sense given that only God knows what true belief is. (And considering the Koran’s mountain range of moods, it really would take the Almighty to know how it all hangs together.) Human beings must warn against corrupt practices, but that’s all we can do to encourage piety: warn. Third, our resulting humility sets us free to ponder God’s will — without any obligation to toe a dictated line. “Let there be no compulsion in religion,” states a voice in chapter 2 of the Koran. “Unto your religion, unto me my religion,” echoes another voice in chapter 109. In-between, there’s this: “If God had pleased, he would have made you all one people. But he has done otherwise...” Ain’t that the truth.

My interpretation sheds light on why I, as a Muslim, can’t stay quiet about Islam’s supremacists, whether they’re extreme like Osama bin Laden or mainstream like my madressa teacher, Mr. Khaki. After reaching their own conclusions “without compulsion,” they turn around and prevent others from doing the same. At that point, the Koranically decreed duty to “warn” about practices that try the faith morphs into the Koranically denied permission to intimidate. By my reading, we should not only enjoy the freedom to explore; we have to ensure that this freedom exists for everyone. Anything less undermines God’s jurisdiction as the supreme judge and jury. Such individual, independent reasoning is logical, potentially righteous, and entirely compatible with the ideals I hold as a Westerner.

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/letters.html

This is certainly evidence that reform is taking hold of at least some Muslims. If this interpretation of their own Koran and reform leads them away from terrorism, then should we not encourage these types of reforms instead of holding on to the rage and fear created by past experiences and stating flatly that all Muslims are terrorists and cannot be anything but terrorists unless they leave Islam?

Joseph Botwinick </font>[/QUOTE]A straw man, Joseph. No one has said that all Muslims are terrorists. Most of them are trapped in a slave system that means death if they try to leave. You did not answer the point about built-in human rights abuse in the Koran in the instances of women and sodomites. In fact, you have said nothing about human rights abuse under Islam--why?

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I responded by saying that it depends on your interpretation of the Koran. There have certainly been human rights abuses in the name of Islam, just as there have been in the name of Christianity. On the other hand, there are those in Islam who are seeking to reform their religion and don't hold to those same interpretations of the Koran. They don't endorse abuse against women and violations of human rights against non-Muslims. As a matter of fact, as I showed you with a quote from Irshad Manji, they reject the supremecist message of extremist Islam and the idea that non-Muslims should be compelled to convert with the sword. This is a moderate interpretation of Islam and should be encouraged as it will lead Muslims away from terrorism, just as more correct interpretations of our Christian Bible has led us away from segregation and to repent of our role in slavery.

Further, when Jet said:

I know that is not what you said, but these extremists are practicing what is taught by their religion.

and when LE said:

Name one Islamic group that isn't connected either directly or indirectly to terrorism. You can't. If they aren't overtly terrorists, then they support the cause, either financially or in ideology.

and

But as long as they say blessings upon the prophet Mohammed, they support terrorism. He was the original terrorist of the religion.

...they were certainly equating the whole of Islam with terrorists. This is patently false and has been shown to be false when I presented LE with not one, but six Islamic organizations who are not only not connected to terrorists groups, but also condemn Islamic extremism and have been targets of Fatwas themselves because of the stand they have taken. Instead of saying, yeah, maybe you're right. Perhaps there are Muslims in this world who don't embrace terrorism or terrorist groups, she found some reason to dismiss them as terrorists. That is not honest, fair, or just (get mad if you want, but it is true).

Now again, I ask you, CMG, if an Islamic group(s) is trying to reform their faith and interpret their Koran in a manner that leads to more acceptance of others, and leads them away from terrorism, should we not encourage that instead of wagging our fingers in their face in doubt, fear, and hatred?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[church mouse guy]

The Koran is a book of built-in injustice, Joseph. No one denies it. It is a man-made book that is false from page one to the last page. So far all that the Koran has given the world is 1300 years of war to conquer the world for allah, another name for the devil.

There is no doubt, fear, or hatred of Islam. I laugh at allah. Islam is just disgusting like communism and nazism and fascism. Don't move to an Arab League nation, Joseph.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

So, I gather you have decided to join others in this discussion and condemn all Muslims as terrorists and not encourage reform of their faith that would lead them further away from Islam? What a shame.

BTW, there are at least six Islamic organizations which I have listed who do deny that the Koran is a book of built in injustice. They have a different interpretation of it:

Khaleel Mohammed, an imam and professor of Islam at San Diego State University: “Irshad wants us to do what our Holy Book wants us to do: End the tribal posturing, open our eyes, and stand up to oppression, even if it's rationalized by our vaunted imams… She remains obedient to the Divine Imperative: ‘O you who believe! Be upholders of justice, witnesses for God, even if it be against yourselves, or your parents and kin.’ (Quran, 4:135).”

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/aboutirshad.html

Furthermore, she also discusses the contributions to the world of Islam that have been positive, and how to return the Islamic world back to those days in this passage:

I raise positive aspects of Islam throughout my book. In chapter 2, for instance, I identify Koranic verses that support women’s equality and religious pluralism. In chapter 3, I extol the artistic and scientific contributions that Islamic civilization gave to the world. As one of many examples, I point out that Cordoba, a city in Muslim Spain, had 70 libraries. That rivals the number of libraries in most cosmopolitan cities today! Islam had this 1000 years ago.

In fact, the biggest idea in my book is that Islam once exhibited a glorious practice of critical thinking — ijtihad — that allowed Muslims to lead the world in curiosity and creativity. I argue that there is no reason Muslims cannot rediscover our practice of independent thinking, and that’s why the second half of my book outlines a global campaign to revive ijtihad. How? First and foremost, by liberating the talents of Muslim women. I even show how this idea is supported by progressive Islamic traditions and existing Koranic passages.

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/lettersarchive1.html

Now, if you want to say that Islam is a false religion, then I will give you a hearty amen.

However, we should also be fair and honest by recognizing that not all Muslims are terrorists, and that they can have different interpretations of the Koran than the Extremist Muslims that cause them not to be terrorists.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[church mouse guy]

I am so tired of hearing how wonderful Islam was when it ruled countries like Spain for 800 years. The Spanish were very glad to be rid of them. All these scientific advances of Islam were a 1000 years ago. Now they don't even have soap and water. The truth is that we have had 1300 years if jihad to rule the world.

If you don't believe me, listen to Victor Mordecai online for free:

www.vicmord.com

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

The name Victor Mordecai means nothing to me as I don't know who he is. Every nation in the world has had their highs and lows. There may be a day when America doesn't protect the rights of the unborn...oh wait...that day is already here. There may be a day when America does not protect the rights of black people...oh wait...we have already had that day. See my point? All mankind is capable of all manner of evil. Islam has gone through their dark time and many Muslims have themselves suffered for it. There are Muslims who are trying to embrace western ideas of pluralism and reform their religion to where their people don't embrace terrorism, and take them back to a time when they did contribute positively to the world. If you don't want to support that, then I feel sorry for you. I do support these goals however.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LadyEagle]

Islam is the only major world religion today that is cited by both state and non-state actors to legitimize beheadings. And two major aspects of decapitation in an Islamic context should be noted: first, the practice has both Qur'anic and historical sanction. It is not the product of a fabricated tradition. Second, in contradiction to the assertions of apologists, both Muslim and non-Muslim, these beheadings are not simply a brutal method of drawing attention to the Islamist political agenda and weakening opponents' will to fight. Zarqawi and other Islamists who practice decapitation believe that God has ordained them to obliterate their enemies in this manner. Islam is, for this determined minority of Muslims, anything but a "religion of peace." It is, rather, a religion of the sword with the blade forever at the throat of the unbeliever.

http://www.meforum.org/article/713