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Islamists murder Brit soldier in London

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poncho

poncho

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Nevermond these guys were already being watxhed by MI5 for years. Now I don't agree with these "laws" that allow the government to detain people indefinately just because the government suspects did ya catch that? I say because the government SUSPECTS they may be a "threat" like the NDAA. I'm pretty sure the UK has it's own version that allows people to be detained forever without charge. So why weren't these guys locked up in an MI5 dungeon somewhere instead of being allowed to walk around free with meat cleavers?

Evidently they were "suspected" of being a threat which is all the government needs to disappear them "legally" and yet there they were walking around free with meat cleavers. When are you guys gonna ban meat clevers over there? My goodness people shouldn't be allowed to have such deadly weapons like that.

Well at least the government can use this event to take away more civil liberties from everyone over there. Big Brother loves the Brits too.
 
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Dennis324

Member
Ooo...I don't know if I think its a good idea to lock someone up simply because they are suspected that they might commit a crime.

"When are you guys gonna ban meat cleavers over there?" :laugh: That's a good one.
 
poncho

poncho

Well-Known Member
Dennis324 said:
Ooo...I don't know if I think its a good idea to lock someone up simply because they are suspected that they might commit a crime.

"When are you guys gonna ban meat cleavers over there?" :laugh: That's a good one.
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I couldn't agree more but as long as the government claims it can do that "legally" why weren't these "suspects" detained indefinately? If the government can use that power to detain an ex US marine for making "anti government" statements on Facebook why can't it detain two real threats they've been watching for years?
 
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Squire Robertsson

Squire Robertsson

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Which government: the US or her majesty's?
poncho said:
I couldn't agree more but as long as the government claims it can do that "legally" why weren't these "suspects" detained indefinately? If the government can use that power to detain an ex US marine for making "anti government" statements on Facebook why can't it detain two real threats they've been watching for years?
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poncho

poncho

Well-Known Member
Squire Robertsson said:
Which government: the US or her majesty's?
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Is there a difference? All the same "anti terror laws" are being passed by western governments. If we in the US have a "law" that allows the government to indefinately detain and or execute terror "suspects" without due process of law it's probably safe to assume the UK either already does or shortly will claim the same power.
 
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Dennis324

Member
poncho said:
Is there a difference? All the same "anti terror laws" are being passed by western governments. If we in the US have a "law" that allows the government to indefinately detain and or execute terror "suspects" without due process of law it's probably safe to assume the UK either already does or shortly will claim the same power.
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About that... has the US been detaining American citizens without due process? Or are they just enemy combatants found on the field of battle?

See, to me it's one thing to capture an enemy combatant and detain him without giving him Miranda rights, etc. It's another thing altogether to detain an American citizen the same way.

Personally I don't feel that non-citizens of our country should have the same rights as our citizens. I'm not saying that we should throw non-citizens in a cell and just forget em (like people used to do with an oubliette) . :smilewinkgrin: I mean they should have their day in some sort of court (maybe a military tribunal).

Imo, the folks in Guantanamo bay ought to have had their military hearings years ago. Politics is why this hasn't happened imo.
 
poncho

poncho

Well-Known Member
The NDAA allows the government to detain and or execute anyone including citizens if they are SUSPECTED of being a threat. Note the operative word is SUSPECTED. No charges no trial and the government doesn' t even have to provide evidence. Obama has already killed American citizens he has "claimed" were terrorist threats including a 16 year old boy while he was having a cook out with his friends. His crime? His father was alleged to have made anti US government statements.

Not long ago an ex US marine was detained for several days without being arrested or charged with a crime. His where abouts were unknown his family didn't know what happened to him. He was held in a psych hospital against his will. His crime? He made "anti government statements" on Facebook.

Adam Kokesh Iraq war veteran was just taken into custody a couple weeks ago by Philidelphia police and held in a federal prison for several days without being allowed to make a phone call. He was charged after the fact with resisting arrest and assaulting a federal officer. Several videos show him being tackled by police while his hands were raised in submission. These charges were dismissed after videos of the incident appeared on youtube. He was then given several citations which he refused to sign and released. His crime? Organizing a protest in support of the second amendment in Washington DC and being a speaker at a protest in Phili.

Keep in mind the government that has done these things has been aiding and abetting terrorists in Libya and Syria, lied about and covered up the murder of Americans in Benghazi, ran guns into Mexico illegaly resulting in the deaths of American border patrol agents and possibly hundreds of Mexicans in order to demonize gun ownership and the second amendment, used the IRS to Intimidate political opponents, while putting out several "reports" that claim gun owners, constitutionalists, homeschoolers, Christians and returning US war veterans should be treated as terror suspects. It's the same government that went all out to push it's gun control agenda by "dancing in the blood" of the victims of the Sandy Hook school shooting in order to demonize gun owners a ban semi auto rifles.

And that's just what I can remember before having my second cup of coffee.
 
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Matt Black

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Nope. For which I am very glad, otherwise there's nothing to stop MI5 saying to me, "We think you're a threat to national security, so goodbye."
 
Squire Robertsson

Squire Robertsson

Administrator
Administrator
The problem with your citations are you missed the last two paragraphs of the first article
Indefinite detention under the 2001 Act was criticised heavily from the start and the procedure adopted by SIAC questioned even by special advocates instructed to appear before it. In 2005 the powers were scrutinised by the House of Lords in A-v-Secretary of State for the Home Department.
The Court considered, in particular, the breaches of Article 5 European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR) that detention under s 23 entailed – the Government had accepted that the powers amounted to a derogation from the Convention but justified this on the basis that that the terrorist threat to the country amounted a “public emergency.” The Court did not seek to challenge that assertion but, crucially, noted that indefinite detention could not be applied to UK citizens. In addition, there was nothing to prevent a foreign terrorist “suspect” being released to any country where he or she would not be at risk of torture. The House of Lords concluded that the powers were therefore discriminatory and made a Declaration of Incompatibility.
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My bold. If I read these paragraphs correctly, the Act has been nullified by the courts.
And in the second the four persons in question are under "house arrest" Under sever conditions mind you, but they are not in one of Her Majesty's prisons and their cases are on appeal. So, the conditions in the UK are hardly as far reaching as one would assume from your post.


My opinion follows: The West is in a war with the Salafists. It is an unconventional and asymmetrical war. Further, in consideration of any American Salafists who get caught up in the meat grinder, they put themselves in the same position as the men under Major General Pickett, CSA when they charged Cemetery Ridge.

poncho said:
http://www.bindmans.com/legal-resou...ation/indefinite-detention-under-the-2001-act



http://www.cageprisoners.com/our-wo...n-the-shadows-indefinite-detention-in-england
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D

Dennis324

Member
poncho said:
Adam Kokesh Iraq war veteran was just taken into custody a couple weeks ago by Philidelphia police and held in a federal prison for several days without being allowed to make a phone call. He was charged after the fact with resisting arrest and assaulting a federal officer. Several videos show him being tackled by police while his hands were raised in submission. These charges were dismissed after videos of the incident appeared on youtube. He was then given several citations which he refused to sign and released. His crime? Organizing a protest in support of the second amendment in Washington DC and being a speaker at a protest in Phili.
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I'd never heard of Adam Kokesh so I had to look him up. There's a few things about this guy that think ought to be mentioned.

He's a self described libertarian anti-war activist and anarchist. This guy brought home a pistol from the Iraq war in '04 for which he was demoted from sgt to corporal. Was initially honorably dischard. Then while in the ready reserve, he participated in an anti war protest, which is against the UCMJ. This led to him being given an "other than honorable" discharge (ie...he was kicked out). He's been arrested a number of times. And on May 20th of this year he was charged with assaulting a federal officer and resisting arrest. So his crime was not because he organized a protest

So this sort of tells us where he's coming from. So I dunno if its fair to say he hasn't been given due process.
 
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Don

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Lock them up for life -- meaning, they have food & shelter for the rest of their lives paid for by the taxpayers...which include the victims, or families of the victims....

Where's the justice in that?
 
Earth Wind and Fire

Earth Wind and Fire

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Site Supporter
Don said:
Lock them up for life -- meaning, they have food & shelter for the rest of their lives paid for by the taxpayers...which include the victims, or families of the victims....

Where's the justice in that?
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I agree & sadly it is a mark of a more liberal society where as execution should be required...particularly the premeditated type of crime.

Lets think about how the family of that murdered soldier views things.
 
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