isn't the ULTIMATE Source of salvation In Classic Arminianism Ourselves?

[Skandelon]

Thanks for all of your replies!

Will ask it again, different way...

IF you can freely reject the offer to save you, based upon your own "free will"...

What really saves you?

Forgive me for answering a question with a question, but it worked for Jesus:

If you can't freely accept the offer to save you, based upon your own "free will" then what really condemns you?

And I think the scripture is clear that those who perish will do so because of their rejection of the truth, their unbelief in what has been clearly revealed and understood.

Cals don't have this problem, as we believe that God both provides the means of grace/ and the grace to alow us to always choose for Christ...

We affirm the means of grace and the grace to allow us to choose as well, we just also affirm that man can resist or reject this grace.

 

[Alive in Christ]

AmyG posted...

I get so tired of being accused of saving myself.

and...

It's so childish to even accuse a Christian of believing such a stupid thing. :BangHead:

I know. Its so ridiculous and so absurd. They must do it for thier own enjoyment or something.

 

[Winman]

AmyG posted...

and...

I know. Its so ridiculous and so absurd. They must do it for thier own enjoyment or something.

No, their concept of salvation is different. They believe God saves man without cooperation from man, while we believe man cooperates with God in salvation.

The question is, which view is scriptural? I believe the view that we cooperate with God is scriptural.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock, if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Does salvation take two? Oh yes. Jesus knocks at our door and desires entry, but we must open the door.
Do we take credit for opening the door? No, because unless Jesus came to us and knocked on our door, we could not have opened to him.


Jn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink: thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Do we have to do anything to get this living water? Yes, we have to ask. Do we get credit? No, for unless God had revealed eternal life to us, and who it is that can give us this life, his Son Jesus, we could not have known of eternal life or who to ask for it, which is only Jesus.

So, the scriptures clearly show we play a part in salvation, but we can take no credit, for unless Jesus had revealed himself to us and the free offer of life he gives, we could not have accepted it.

Jesus is not offended when you open the door, he wants you to open, or else he would not have told us to do so.

Jesus is not offended when you ask him for living water, he wants you to ask.

We do not have to be afraid of doing what Jesus told us to do. Think about that.

 

[Alive in Christ]

JesusFan...

Thanks for all of your replies!

Will ask it again, different way...

IF you can freely reject the offer to save you, based upon your own "free will"...

What really saves you?

Jesus

the Cross, or you decision to accept the offer?

Jesus saves us.

Cals don't have this problem,...

What problem? :smilewinkgrin:

We have no problem at all.

...as we believe that God both provides the means of grace/ and the grace to alow us to always choose for Christ...

Except that some people refuse Christ. I wish they didnt, but God has no robots, and He will honor a persons right to choose to reject Christ.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Winman...

No, their concept of salvation is different. They believe God saves man without cooperation from man, while we believe man cooperates with God in salvation.

The question is, which view is scriptural? I believe the view that we cooperate with God is scriptural.

I agree. But my post was not directed at the reasonable, normal calvinists.

It was the extreme, way out in left field ones that that I was referring to.

 

[Iconoclast]

No, their concept of salvation is different. They believe God saves man without cooperation from man, while we believe man cooperates with God in salvation.
this is the issue

The question is, which view is scriptural?

6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Looks like "they" who believe in grace alone are correct
I believe the view that we cooperate with God is scriptural.

This is why we can never agree.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock, if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
This verse is spoken to those in the church already.
Does salvation take two?
No....God alone saves....We are the objects of the work of God

Oh yes. Jesus knocks at our door and desires entry,
OH no. this sounds so sad,will anyone open the door?
but we must open the door.

As long as "we" do anything it is not really the biblical salvation

1And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Nowadays it could be said this way...
And certain non cals came and said, EXCEPT YE;..................ye cannot be saved
1] open the door
2]co operate with God
3] accept Jesus
4] raise your hand
5] give your heart to Jesus
6]walk the aisle
7]make a decision
8] place your faith

The apostles just commanded men to repent and believe as Jesus commanded.They knew God would enable His people to do so.

Do we take credit for opening the door?
Yes....many have posted and bragged about what they have done,in many posts

No, because unless Jesus came to us and knocked on our door, we could not have opened to him.

The saints in heaven will not have this testimony.....They always and only praise The Lamb that was slain.



Jn 4:10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink: thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

Do we have to do anything to get this living water? Yes, we have to ask. Do we get credit? No, for unless God had revealed eternal life to us, and who it is that can give us this life, his Son Jesus, we could not have known of eternal life or who to ask for it, which is only Jesus.

So, the scriptures clearly show we play a part in salvation,

no...never have and never will

but we can take no credit, for unless Jesus had revealed himself to us and the free offer of life he gives, we could not have accepted it.Jesus is not offended when you open the door, he wants you to open, or else he would not have told us to do so.

Jesus is not offended when you ask him for living water, he wants you to ask.

We do not have to be afraid of doing what Jesus told us to do. Think about that.

Yes..we should command all men evertwhere to repent and believe the gospel

 

[Allan]

Forgive me for answering a question with a question, but it worked for Jesus:

If you can't freely accept the offer to save you, based upon your own "free will" then what really condemns you?

And I think the scripture is clear that those who perish will do so because of their rejection of the truth, their unbelief in what has been clearly revealed and understood.


We affirm the means of grace and the grace to allow us to choose as well, we just also affirm that man can resist or reject this grace.

Agreed. Why does God ONLY save a person who has willingly chosen to be saved? You can not be saved unless you believe and God DOES NOT save a part from a person willingly desiring to be saved.. ergo believing. Where does salvation hinge or better.. what is the factor which allows for the completion of the process of salvation even for the Cal? On man's choice, for with out it, even to the Calvinist, God will not him.

One just has to note 2 Thes 2:10-13 which states of those who ARE condemned (and this group has heard the true gospel) that they rejected the gospel that could SAVE THEM. How can one be saved unless a propitiation has been made on their behalf. But they are damned NOT be cause of sin, but according to scripture because they rejected the only thing that was available to them, which could save them.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello Allan

You can not be saved unless you believe and God DOES NOT save a part from a person willingly desiring to be saved.. ergo believing.

Agreed Allan.....God saves everyone who believes in the biblical Christ savingly.

One just has to note 2 Thes 2:10-13 which states of those who ARE condemned (and this group has heard the true gospel) that they rejected the gospel that could SAVE THEM.


Allan...."there is no what if" there is only "what is" unbelievers are unbelievers.....because they always resist! That is why they are condemned.

How can one be saved unless a propitiation has been made on their behalf.

They cannot, that is the point.They are not saved.There is no propitiation for them.They face God's wrath without mercy.


But they are damned NOT be cause of sin,

All men are in hell for sins

but according to scripture because they rejected the only thing that was available to them, which could save them

Yes they did, and that is their greatest sin.....but all sins are deadly.
When they reject the lamb and his blood shed on the cross they forsake their own mercy;

8They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.

9But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.

 

[convicted1]

Here are some scriptures to chew on:

Matt 20:30 And, behold, two blind men sitting by the way side, when they heard that Jesus passed by, cried out, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.

31 And the multitude rebuked them, because they should hold their peace: but they cried the more, saying, Have mercy on us, O Lord, thou son of David.

32 And Jesus stood still, and called them, and said, What will ye that I shall do unto you?

33 They say unto him, Lord, that our eyes may be opened.

34 So Jesus had compassion on them, and touched their eyes: and immediately their eyes received sight, and they followed him.


Mark 10:49 And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee.

50 And he, casting away his garment, rose, and came to Jesus.

51 And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee? The blind man said unto him, Lord, that I might receive my sight.

52 And Jesus said unto him, Go thy way; thy faith hath made thee whole. And immediately he received his sight, and followed Jesus in the way.


Luke 18:40 And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him,

41 Saying, What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.

42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee.

43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God.


I know that these three passages are talking about one incident that was written by three men. But it does show that Jesus asked them/him, what did he want for Him to do.


Luke 17:12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:

13 And they lifted up their voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.

14 And when he saw them, he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.

15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,

16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.

17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?

18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.

19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

So you see, Jesus will do His part by "passing by", but unless they call out to Him for help, He will just keep going. People don't just walk around content in their sinful life, and then, "presto chango", they get salvation. Or at least I'd have my concerns regarding this.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[Allan]

Hello Allan
...
Allan...."there is no what if" there is only "what is" unbelievers are unbelievers.....because they always resist! That is why they are condemned.

They cannot, that is the point.They are not saved.There is no propitiation for them.They face God's wrath without mercy.

You miss completely the point of the passage I was speaking to, which is:

2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

What 'truth'? The gospel message of salvation.
If Christ did not die for them, there was no message for them, no offer toward them, no potential. As a man it is morally wrong to something to someone what you do not have to give them.. and more so God who does not lie.

For the Cal - There is NO hypothetical salvation for the lost, thus the gospel message is NOT for the non-elect.. ergo.. these who are condemned could not have been said, by God, to have rejected salvation nor could or would God condemned them for rejecting something that had NOTHING to do with them. THAT is the point - they 'could be saved' (so as to be saved) but rejected the truth and held to a lie. IF I may expound on the passage I quote I will add this if I may - regarding those who scripture says are followers of the Anti-Christ, who are most definitely condemned, we find they are condemned because they rejected the truth that could have saved them. Thus my question
-- How could it (the truth) have saved them (who are most definitely destined for destruction) if Christ died ONLY for a the elect alone?

Lets look at it in 2 Thes again.

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Now granted this is about those who will follow the Anti-Christ but there is no better text in scripture to establish my point. I mean these followers of his are already known to be destined for an eternal hell.

Now in verse 10 we find some interesting things.
1. - The scrpture states the anti-christ will use all types of deception on those who [are] perishing or [will] perish. NEXT the scripture says WHY they are destined to perish. Does it stat they perish because God did not chose them regardless of belief? No, but here is what it begins with - BECAUSE or DUE TO THIS - here is the reason they will perish, be damned, or condemned to God's Judgment - wrath and Hell.
THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH...
The term 'received' is not in the Passive voice (meaning God does this to or in them) but is in the Middle Deponent which is almost always used in the Active voice (meaning the subject such as 'they' is the doer). It was 'THEIR' choice NOT to receive. You might ask me where I saw a choice. First in the fact 'they' did not 'receive' or (take to themselves - to learn, like John 6:45). IOW - they HAD the truth and knew or understood it. Thus we KNOW God presented them with a choice otherwise they could not reject what was not offered, and according to scripture what was offered.. truth/salvation. and Second is found in #2.

2. ...THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. Now here is a very strange thing to say if Christ did not die for them. If God did not choose them they CAN NOT even be considered 'potentially' or remotely 'hypothetically' saved. And yet the text reads
"in them that perish BECAUSE they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved". Apparently receiving truth is connected to salvation. Many Calvinists would agree as do I. But were we differ is in the FACT scripture states THEY PERISH BECAUSE...They did not receive the love of the Truth...that could save them.

If Christ did not die for them then this verse is a farce, and a false declaration by God Himself. He does not state they perish because they were not chosen regardless of belief or that their damnation has nothing to do with their choice, but that they perish because they would not, NOT could not, believe the truth and that THEY (who to some were pre-ordained to perish and have no hope of salvation) might BE SAVED. and if that isn't enough God goes after this truth again in the next verse

2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

'For this cause' - what cause or for what reason (not believing the truth that could save them) ... God shall send them a strong delusion that they will believe a lie. They chose the Lie over the Truth and for THEIR CHOOSING God sends forth His Judgment against them for their rejection of truth or The Truth (Jesus).
Now listen to how God closes this:

2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness

So far we have these people rejecting the truth (Christ Jesus) that could save them. Then God sends forth a Judgment of delusion (blindness) AFTER rejecting the truth that they will continue believing the lie. BUT NOW...
NOW, we see something interesting regarding their condemnation or damnation. For God states He sent that delusion (blindness) after their rejection of the Truth that they might be saved, SO THEY MIGHT ALL BE DAMNED... Notice please their damnation was not sealed until they rejected the truth that COULD HAVE SAVED THEM. If you don't believe me just read the rest of the sentence. God DAMNS (condemns to judgment) those who rejected and did not believe the Truth (Jesus), but had pleasure in their unrighteousness. Notice (and I believe you agree on THIS point) they are condemned by their choice.

They were not hated and condemned by God who passed over them and as such did not provide a means of salvation for them as some declare. What we find according to these passages of scripture it was their choice that determined in the eyes of God their relationship with Him - whether in unity and Love or separated and under condemnation.

And for those who might still try to state, the reason they did not believe is because they were not 'irresistibly draw'. Then I ask you:
If a person has the potential of being saved must they not be draw by God?
And if God draws them how can they harden their hearts, or reject His truth THAT COULD SAVE THEM since salvation is only possible for the elect?
And lastly how can the scriptures declare of the followers of the anti-christ, "that they might be saved"?
Please state just how God can offer salvation to someone who He never set forth a propitiation for? If there was not, God Himself can not offer to the non-elect the truth - to be saved. Otherwise we have the first scripture here declaring our God has lied - YET- we know He does not.

Yes they did, and that is their greatest sin.....but all sins are deadly.
When they reject the lamb and his blood shed on the cross they forsake their own mercy;

Ok, you just contradicted yourself. You stated there was no propitiation made for them (non-elect) so just how can they reject what is not offered to them?
What mercy are they forsaking since Christ did not die on their behalf.. How can they be judged for rejecting an offer to be saved, when their is no such offer because their has been nothing done to give them any 'hope' for 'mercy'.

Here is a case in point if I may.
In what sense did they forsake their 'own mercy'?
Are you contending the atonement was made for them as well?

If no, then there is NO mercy for them to forsake.

What must be remembered is that both grace and mercy are two sides of the same coin, though emphasis might be on one more so than the other for clarity. But the fact is- You can not have one without the other.
Example: If you deserve death and I with hold it from you (Mercy), then not only have I not given you what you deserve but I have also given you what you do not deserve - life... which is grace/giving you what you do not deserve.

Yet, there is still much to note from this passage - ESV on Jonah 2:8:

ESV - Jon 2:8 - “Those who pay regard to vain idols forsake their hope of steadfast love.
© Info: - English Standard Version © 2001 Crossway Bibles

To forsake, is to turn away from or reject, and here it states quite clearly they are rejecting their 'hope of steadfast love'. Now what is even more noteworthy than that is the context in which verse 9 encapsulates just what this 'hope of steadfast love' is that they rejected, but what Jonah had believed/received - Salvation - as verse 9 declares 'Salvation [is] of the LORD'.

Only God can save us, and what they rejected was the very 'hope of steadfast love' - His salvation.

 

[Aaron]

And I think the scripture is clear that those who perish will do so because of their rejection of the truth, their unbelief in what has been clearly revealed and understood.

Finally, a definition of belief, an erroneous and unscriptural one, but a definition nonetheless.

Belief is the conviction that something is true. It is a state of being. One either believes or he doesn't.

You have turned belief into an action. You have made belief the acceptance of a conviction.

It doesn't matter how you slice it. The salvation preached by noncalvinists is the Cross plus one's own righteous act. Ergo, the key, or in JF's words, "ultimate source" of salvation in classic Arminianism is one's self. Neither Christ nor the Cross.

 

[Allan]

Know both cals/Arms affirm that
Humans are sinners
Christ died for the sins of his saved peoples
Gospel sent forth to lost sinners

Don't Cals see God as Ultimate source of Salvation, As he direct elects his own, while Arms see us as final authority, as we can refuse to accept what God offers unto us in Cross of Jesus?

simple answer.. No. The 'ultimate' SOURCE of salvation is God as any Arminian will attest to. Salvation doesn't begin with us, we are not the initiators of coming to God, ect... Therefore in light of this all orthodox Christianity agrees that God is the ultimate SOURCE of salvation.

Jesusfan.. do you believe that God saves man without His believing first? If not, then why does God wait on mans 'willingness'? Because man must desire to be saved.
Thus you STILL have man cooperating in salvation. God does not save a man who does not want to be saved but neither does He save a man UNTIL he believes.

 

[Allan]

Finally, a definition of belief, an erroneous and unscriptural one, but a definition nonetheless.

Belief is the conviction that something is true. It is a state of being. One either believes or he doesn't.

You have turned belief into an action. You have made belief the acceptance of a conviction.

It doesn't matter how you slice it. The salvation preached by noncalvinists is the Cross plus one's own righteous act. Ergo, the key, or in JF's words, "ultimate source" of salvation in classic Arminianism is one's self. Neither Christ nor the Cross.

LOL.. belief IS an action as it is a verb, though at times it is also used as a noun. You can't HAVE a conviction unless you have accepted it as truth, otherwise there is no conviction. I agree it is described as a 'moral conviction' as one of it's definitions but it epitomized in the sense of persuasion.. However what does the word conviction mean

1. the state or appearance of being convinced
2. a fixed or firmly held belief, opinion, etc
3. the act of convincing
4. the act or an instance of convicting or the state of being convicted

Editted.. was being a bit petty so I took it out

 

[Iconoclast]

I have to do this in two parts..part one;

You miss completely the point of the passage I was speaking to, which is:
Well...lets continue on this passage because I think we are clarifying the issues at hand by going back and forth. You think i have missed the passage,I think I have it...so let's see what we can .Why do our points of view not match?
What 'truth'? The gospel message of salvation.

Yes...the passage says; They refused to love the truth
2Th 2:10 and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
2Th 2:11 Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false,
2Th 2:12 in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Allan, The truth rejected is not good news but as we know it is then a promised and guarenteed judgement.

If Christ did not die for them, there was no message for them, no offer toward them, no potential.

Allan I can understand how you say this as it seems logical.I do not think it is correct for the following reasons;
1] Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners.That is the message preached to all men everywhere. The free offer of the gospel stands.It is a real offer.

Salvation happens in time.The elect go from darkness to light by the work of the Spirit. Until they do they are.....even as others dead in sins and perishing under the righteous judgement of God.
Sinners do not know who is in the Lambs book of life. We preach to all men everywhere.God has His people scattered all over the world....God so loved the world.
What God has revealed about His electing grace ,and covenant love is sheep food. For all we know ...at any time in History God could have purposed to save everyone we speak with or not. The reality is from the divine standpoint it is certain...not potential. We are not given direct revelation as to peoples heart condition...so the gospel offer is made sincerly.
The fact that we are told that many will perish...and they sadly will, does not change the facts of then gospel being offered to sinners.

As a man it is morally wrong to something to someone what you do not have to give them.. and more so God who does not lie.

2]Man is responsible to repent and believe.Like the door on the ark was open for years,there came a time when the door was shut. No sinners wanted to go in,until it was too late. That does not mean the door was not open..because they refused to go in! It was open , they refused.
However you want to say it.....everyone who believes, whosoever will,any sinner who repents.....will be saved. The fact that at a point in time reprobates are confirmed in their reprobation does not change a thing.
There are means of salvation and grace. There is also a process and means for lost sinners. If God sends strong delusion...at a point in time to unbelievers...it only confirms them in their lost condition.
Pharoah..hardened his heart....God also hardened Pharoahs heart.

For the Cal - There is NO hypothetical salvation for the lost, thus the gospel message is NOT for the non-elect..

3] There is no hypothetical anything as God has decreed whatsoever comes to pass. The gospel message is preached to sinners...wheat and tares together. God knows them that are His.Every tree The heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up.It is exact and definate, not potential.
There is no "good news" for those in hell. The good news is not for the non elect! Allan....if you or any non-cal can get any non -elect to repent and believe go right ahead!:thumbsup:
God has vowed that everyone believing will have eternal life. It is not as if God ever has to change His plan...[Covenant of Redemption]
As if God would have to learn something..ie, Oh no..Pharoah believes but I did not die for him..what am I going to do now
This whole line of reasoning is without merit if really thought about.


ergo.. these who are condemned could not have been said, by God, to have rejected salvation nor could or would God condemned them for rejecting something that had NOTHING to do with them. THAT is the point - they 'could be saved' (so as to be saved) but rejected the truth and held to a lie.

Again....the example of those who stayed out of the ark. The natural man always fails to welcome the things of God. The actual rejection of salvation is an actual and willful rejection.

IF I may expound on the passage I quote I will add this if I may - regarding those who scripture says are followers of the Anti-Christ, who are most definitely condemned, we find they are condemned because they rejected the truth that could have saved them. Thus my question
-- How could it (the truth) have saved them (who are most definitely destined for destruction) if Christ died ONLY for a the elect alone?

All men died and are already condemned in Adam.That they who have the privilege of hearing the word preached and taught,are all the more guilty of rejecting the only remedy for their sins. Who God died for does not change their condemned condition.Their refusal is additional condemnation,they will be beaten with many stripes.

 

[Iconoclast]

part 2


Lets look at it in 2 Thes again.

Now granted this is about those who will follow the Anti-Christ but there is no better text in scripture to establish my point. I mean these followers of his are already known to be destined for an eternal hell.

Now in verse 10 we find some interesting things.
1. - The scrpture states the anti-christ will use all types of deception on those who [are] perishing or [will] perish. NEXT the scripture says WHY they are destined to perish. Does it stat they perish because God did not chose them regardless of belief? No, but here is what it begins with - BECAUSE or DUE TO THIS - here is the reason they will perish, be damned, or condemned to God's Judgment - wrath and Hell.
THEY RECEIVED NOT THE LOVE OF THE TRUTH...


This description of the unsaved in these verses does not mean this is the only reason they perish as you allude to.Men are perishing as we speak who never heard about Jesus.
Those who hear the truth and do not love it are spoken of here. Of course all truth suppressors perish. All others outisde of Christ perish also.

The term 'received' is not in the Passive voice (meaning God does this to or in them) but is in the Middle Deponent which is almost always used in the Active voice (meaning the subject such as 'they' is the doer). It was 'THEIR' choice NOT to receive. You might ask me where I saw a choice. First in the fact 'they' did not 'receive' or (take to themselves - to learn, like John 6:45). IOW - they HAD the truth and knew or understood it. Thus we KNOW God presented them with a choice otherwise they could not reject what was not offered, and according to scripture what was offered.. truth/salvation. and Second is found in #2.

The only "choice is look and live". Failing to make this choice always results in second death.

2. ...THAT THEY MIGHT BE SAVED. Now here is a very strange thing to say if Christ did not die for them. If God did not choose them they CAN NOT even be considered 'potentially' or remotely 'hypothetically' saved. And yet the text reads
"in them that perish BECAUSE they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved". Apparently receiving truth is connected to salvation. Many Calvinists would agree as do I. But were we differ is in the FACT scripture states THEY PERISH BECAUSE...They did not receive the love of the Truth...that could save them.

Yes...we do not agree here.I think it is a good verse and I also believe it as truth. They perish....because ...they remain in the realm of death..because.....not welcoming truth ,they were never taken out of that realm..but as i posted from Jonah..instead they observe lying vanities.

If Christ did not die for them then this verse is a farce, and a false declaration by God Himself.

Not at all.the verse stands as written and is quite truthful.

He does not state they perish because they were not chosen

He does not have to. Every verse cannot contain every truth ,everytime

regardless of belief or that their damnation has nothing to do with their choice,

Their choice to refuse is tragic and does figure in to their condemnation.

but that they perish because they would not, NOT could not,

They would not....like in mt 23 but ye would not....they never do unless God intervenes. The description given that they would not is correct.
the question of ability is another thread.

believe the truth and that THEY (who to some were pre-ordained to perish and have no hope of salvation) might BE SAVED. and if that isn't enough God goes after this truth again in the next verse
'For this cause' - what cause or for what reason (not believing the truth that could save them) ... God shall send them a strong delusion that they will believe a lie.

Yes ..He did

They chose the Lie over the Truth and for THEIR CHOOSING God sends forth His Judgment against them for their rejection of truth or The Truth (Jesus).
Now listen to how God closes this:

So far we have these people rejecting the truth (Christ Jesus) that could save them. Then God sends forth a Judgment of delusion (blindness) AFTER rejecting the truth that they will continue believing the lie.

Yes....

BUT NOW...
NOW, we see something interesting regarding their condemnation or damnation. For God states He sent that delusion (blindness) after their rejection of the Truth that they might be saved, SO THEY MIGHT ALL BE DAMNED... Notice please their damnation was not sealed until they rejected the truth that COULD HAVE SAVED THEM.

Like I said...salvation and reprobation happen in time although fixed and certain.


If you don't believe me just read the rest of the sentence. God DAMNS (condemns to judgment) those who rejected and did not believe the Truth (Jesus), but had pleasure in their unrighteousness. Notice (and I believe you agree on THIS point) they are condemned by their choice.

They are sealed in unbelief by this tragic choice ...yes

They were not hated and condemned by God who passed over them and as such did not provide a means of salvation for them as some declare.

Yes they were absolutely.This passage does not change anything at all as far as God's purpose is concerned.It did not surprise God.

What we find according to these passages of scripture

You and some others have found this....others have "found" something else.

it was their choice that determined in the eyes of God their relationship with Him
No....It is always God's covenant that determines a persons relationship or lack of one to God. Their choice had nothing to do with their fallen and alienated condition.This is to put the proverbial cart in front of the horse.

- whether in unity and Love or separated and under condemnation.
Again.....they are born seperated and alienated by God in Adam.

And for those who might still try to state, the reason they did not believe is because they were not 'irresistibly draw'

Irresistable grace does not have anything to do with their sin nature. In the words of that great theologian....lady gaga....they were born this way:laugh:

Then I ask you:
If a person has the potential of being saved must they not be draw by God?

there is not potential...just actual. To us it seems potential because we do not know. It is actual however.

And if God draws them how can they harden their hearts, or reject His truth THAT COULD SAVE THEM since salvation is only possible for the elect?

God does not effectually draw the non elect.


And lastly how can the scriptures declare of the followers of the anti-christ, "that they might be saved"?
Please state just how God can offer salvation to someone who He never set forth a propitiation for?

Salvation is offered to all who hear of it.It is never offered to all.They will always refuse unless God grants them repentance and faith.

If there was not, God Himself can not offer to the non-elect the truth - to be saved. Otherwise we have the first scripture here declaring our God has lied - YET- we know He does not.
The offer is free and stands. I can offer you all my money if you can jump up and orbit saturn.The offer is good.

Ok, you just contradicted yourself. You stated there was no propitiation made for them (non-elect) so just how can they reject what is not offered to them?

not a contradiction as has been pointed out earlier in my responses.


What mercy are they forsaking since Christ did not die on their behalf..

They are forsaking the truth of God,and his mercy.

How can they be judged for rejecting an offer to be saved, when their is no such offer because their has been nothing done to give them any 'hope' for 'mercy'.

Here is a case in point if I may.
In what sense did they forsake their 'own mercy'?
Are you contending the atonement was made for them as well?

The atonement was made for sinners given to the Son. They who reject the Son , and His atonement ,reject the offer of mercy. Not knowing the names of those given to by the Father...they reject the truth.

If no, then there is NO mercy for them to forsake.

What must be remembered is that both grace and mercy are two sides of the same coin, though emphasis might be on one more so than the other for clarity. But the fact is- You can not have one without the other.


Yes exactly....God does not owe anyone of us anything.That is why it is grace and mercy. We are guilty and perishing,always rebelling ...but God
Example: If you deserve death and I with hold it from you (Mercy), then not only have I not given you what you deserve but I have also given you what you do not deserve - life... which is grace/giving you what you do not deserve.

Yet, there is still much to note from this passage - ESV on Jonah 2:8:

To forsake, is to turn away from or reject, and here it states quite clearly they are rejecting their 'hope of steadfast love'. Now what is even more noteworthy than that is the context in which verse 9 encapsulates just what this 'hope of steadfast love' is that they rejected, but what Jonah had believed/received - Salvation - as verse 9 declares 'Salvation [is] of the LORD'.

Only God can save us, and what they rejected was the very 'hope of steadfast love' - His salvation.[/QUOTE]

Yes..sadly

 

[Skandelon]

Agreed. Why does God ONLY save a person who has willingly chosen to be saved? You can not be saved unless you believe and God DOES NOT save a part from a person willingly desiring to be saved.. ergo believing. Where does salvation hinge or better.. what is the factor which allows for the completion of the process of salvation even for the Cal? On man's choice, for with out it, even to the Calvinist, God will not SAVE him.

One just has to note 2 Thes 2:10-13 which states of those who ARE condemned (and this group has heard the true gospel) that they rejected the gospel that could SAVE THEM. How can one be saved unless a propitiation has been made on their behalf. But they are damned NOT be cause of sin, but according to scripture because they rejected the only thing that was available to them, which could save them.

Couldn't have said it any better, brother! :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[JesusFan]

Forgive me for answering a question with a question, but it worked for Jesus:

If you can't freely accept the offer to save you, based upon your own "free will" then what really condemns you?

And I think the scripture is clear that those who perish will do so because of their rejection of the truth, their unbelief in what has been clearly revealed and understood.

Actually we are condemned due to being sinners, away from God at our births, which will result in us refusing jesus, die to us being sinners unwilling and unable to "know the Truth and be set free"


We affirm the means of grace and the grace to allow us to choose as well, we just also affirm that man can resist or reject this grace.

IF the Lord extends his grace provided by means of the atoning Cross, what would be in you doing the resisiting than?

if it ole sin nature, wouldn't God be more gracious extending you the grace thri Christ AND make sure that you will be able to receiving it by faith and not reject it?

By the way, what level were you at in the question on 1-7?

Mine would be closest 3, would you see yourself at #4?

 

[Winman]

LOL.. belief IS an action as it is a verb, though at times it is also used as a noun. You can't HAVE a conviction unless you have accepted it as truth, otherwise there is no conviction. I agree it is described as a 'moral conviction' as one of it's definitions but it epitomized in the sense of persuasion.. However what does the word conviction mean

Editted.. was being a bit petty so I took it out

Well, if faith is a work, then it is a work, and Calvinists also believe you must believe on Jesus after regeneration to be saved, so they believe you must work to be saved.

 

[JesusFan]

Well, if faith is a work, then it is a work, and Calvinists also believe you must believe on Jesus after regeneration to be saved, so they believe you must work to be saved.

no, just that you are doing what is required of you by God AFTER he has provided the grace and means that ALLOWS you to do the faith in jesus Christ act...

 

[Winman]

s

no, just that you are doing what is required of you by God AFTER he has provided the grace and means that ALLOWS you to do the faith in jesus Christ act...

If faith is a work, and you are REQUIRED to do it, then you are saved by works.

If God REQUIRES you to believe, and believeing is a work, then God requires works for salvation.

You want to have your cake and eat it too. It can't be done. If faith is a work, and faith is REQUIRED (as you wrote), then works are required for salvation.