Israel, a time to think about Jews and their nation.

[Eliyahu]

Even though Israel may have suffered from the punishment from God, for their portion of sins, it doesn't mean that the nations and the people who persecuted, tortured, and killed the Jews and Israelites were and will be justified by God at all.

I am very sure that God will punish Nebchadnezzar for his cruelties against Israel, and Hitler for his murder of Jews. None of any human beings was licensed to kill the Jews.

Yes, Jesus was destined to be killed by God, but it doesn't mean that the killers of Jesus ( many Jews in this case plus Romans) will be exonerated from their charges.

Likewise, nobody was approved to persecute the Jews by God at all. We have to make sure about this.

Often many Christians have condemned Jews and Israelites as the killers of Messiah and referred to Matt 27:25 - His Blood be on us and on our children.- We must be very careful not to be trapped into that condemnation. It is we that killed the Messiah, it is our sins that killed the Savior, Jesus. The verse never intended to exonerate anyone from the charges of killing the Jews.
Christians were so much ignorant about the teachings in this regard.

I am very sure that any Heretics should have the right to live as Heretics in the Gentile world since the Law has changed in that aspect. Many people made the mistakes in this aspect. Calvin accused the Unitarian Anabaptist to be put to death who had committed no civil criminal offence, and Zwingli killed many Anabaptists in the name of God. Martin Luther was famous for his Anti-Semitic speech, stimulating the people to kill the Jews.

Their sins are extremely grievous and we must condemn and denounce them.
We must not repeat such stupidity again by persecuting the Jews.

One more thing is this.
Many people misunderstand that we don't owe to Jews any more after the Early Church. However, we must remember there were many Messianic Jews during the past 2000 years since the Early Church. I cannot remember them all but even in Bible Translation and Editions, we must remember that we would not have the current Bible OT based on Masoretic Text unless there were Christian Jews like Bomberg and Jacob Ben Chayyim who compiled Masoretic Texts in 1517 and 1525, and Ginsburg around 1906 too. From time to time, Jews were converted individually in the past, but it is time for Israel to return to God as a whole nation.

Satan works very hard to disprove the Words of God which teach us 1) Ownership of the Land of Israel belonging to Israel, 2) Repentance and Return of Israel to God, 3) Messiah's coming back to Israel, to Mount of Olive, 4) Victory of Israel.

The sound Christian believers must remember the Love of God towards His people. Otherwise they will be ashamed about their ignorance and their debt to the Jews, or even their hatred against the Jews.

 

[Eliyahu]

Matt 23
34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah[/b], the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation


1Thess 2
14 For you, brethren, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea, for you also endured the same sufferings at the hands of your own countrymen, even as they did from the Jews,
15 who both killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets, and drove us out. They are not pleasing to God, but hostile to all men,
16 hindering us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved; with the result that they always fill up the measure of their sins. But wrath has come upon them to the utmost.

So that to this very day – their temple is not rebuilt.

I think Hitler and Nazis quoted 1 Thess 2, without confessing their own sins.

 

[BobRyan]

I do not think it is a sin to quote 1Thess 2 or Matt 23.

I do not think it is a sin to seek for evangelism and salvation of both Jew and Gentile as we are told in Rom 9 and Rom 11.

I do not think it is a sin to admit that God's purpose with Israel all along was world wide evangelism using Israel as His priests and prophets not merely a land grab in Palestine.

Differences of POV are to be expected - so no complaints here. We just do not agree on some points.

 

[BobRyan]

I have been so busy on the other threads I have not seen this. Sorry about the delayed response.

Even though Israel may have suffered from the punishment from God, for their portion of sins, it doesn't mean that the nations and the people who persecuted, tortured, and killed the Jews and Israelites were and will be justified by God at all.

God SAID He was sending Babylon has his servant to punish Israel. But still their probation (like the Amorites of Abraham's day) had not yet closed.

But in Matt 23 Christ pronounces the final curse of 1Kings 9 mentioned by Solomon at the dedication of the temple as being the final end of Israel if they should choose "Final rebellion".

When God had Israel completely removed for 500 years - (Hadrians persecution) that was a sign to the world of their complete apostacy and rejection.

Even today as a nation they remain steeped in apostacy and evolutionist doctrines denying the very creator they claim to serve EVEN among the most strict religious orthodox Rabbi's.

I am very sure that God will punish Nebchadnezzar for his cruelties against Israel, and Hitler for his murder of Jews. None of any human beings was licensed to kill the Jews.

True - They must pay for their sins. Hadrian as well. But God allowed the total devastation -- in fact complete anhililation in the case of Hadrian for the same reason that He allowed Israel to displace the people of Caanan.

And in Lev 18-20 God said that the SAME fate as the Caananites would befall Israel IF they chose those actions.

Yes, Jesus was destined to be killed by God, but it doesn't mean that the killers of Jesus ( many Jews in this case plus Romans) will be exonerated from their charges.

Agreed. In fact in Acts 2 the Jews complain "you are trying to bring the guilt of this man's blood on our heads".

Likewise, nobody was approved to persecute the Jews by God at all. We have to make sure about this.

Approved and Allowed are two different things. WE are not commanded to persecute anyone - Jew OR Gentile. But can SEE that God ALLOWED a lowering of His wall of defense around Israel and the wicked among mankind to wipe them out.

Matt 23 "HOW I WANTED to spare your children but you would not".

Often many Christians have condemned Jews and Israelites as the killers of Messiah and referred to Matt 27:25 - His Blood be on us and on our children.-

Christ makes the argument in Matt 23

"THAT UPON you may come the guilt of ALL righteous blood shed on earth"

32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah[/b], the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

We must be very careful not to be trapped into that condemnation. It is we that killed the Messiah, it is our sins that killed the Savior, Jesus.

No question - Christ was SENT by God to be the savior of the world to be the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins. To die in Gethsemane as he sweat great drops of blood.

But ISRAEL took it into her hands to have a key part in killing her Messiah and when she did so cried out "the guilt of your blood be upon us and upon our children". We SEE the result in history but we do not PARTICIPATE in the down fall of Israel nor do we rejoice in their historic failings.

Rather they are ALL - (as we are ALL) the subjects of Christ's love and the objects for which He died. We reach them with the Gospel and they are redeemed!

You know - just like we are.

One more thing is this.
Many people misunderstand that we don't owe to Jews any more after the Early Church. However, we must remember there were many Messianic Jews during the past 2000 years since the Early Church. I cannot remember them all but even in Bible Translation and Editions,

No question - Paul, Peter, John -- almost ALL NT writers -- all Jews.

And as you point out - many Christian Jews over time.

It is arguably true that the first century NT church was in fact being adminstered by - evangelized by - run by JEWISH Christians (see Acts 15).

Their work and contribution should not be understated.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

Christ makes the argument in Matt 23

"THAT UPON you may come the guilt of ALL righteous blood shed on earth"

32 "Fill up, then, the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33 "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
34 "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35 so that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah[/b], the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36 "Truly I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.



No question - Christ was SENT by God to be the savior of the world to be the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins. To die in Gethsemane as he sweat great drops of blood.

But ISRAEL took it into her hands to have a key part in killing her Messiah and when she did so cried out "the guilt of your blood be upon us and upon our children". We SEE the result in history but we do not PARTICIPATE in the down fall of Israel nor do we rejoice in their historic failings.

Rather they are ALL - (as we are ALL) the subjects of Christ's love and the objects for which He died. We reach them with the Gospel and they are redeemed!

You know - just like we are.



No question - Paul, Peter, John -- almost ALL NT writers -- all Jews.

And as you point out - many Christian Jews over time.

It is arguably true that the first century NT church was in fact being adminstered by - evangelized by - run by JEWISH Christians (see Acts 15).

Their work and contribution should not be understated.

in Christ,

Bob

I don't see much difference between my view and yours, but I believe that it is time for the gentiles to show the grace and mercy towards Israel, keeping the pace with God as He shows the mercy to them. And this requires certain courage because there are so many people who hate Jews with violence and hate even the people who are Pro-Israel or are showing the sympathy with Jews.
Though God doesn't discriminate between Jews and Gentiles, He has a certain Dispensation ( I am not an extreme Dispensationalist, but a mild...as there are certain distinctions between the ages and eras), and this era is the time when God works very hard to recover Israelites.

Upon the Ashes of Holocaust, 2 things were built.
1) State of Israel
2) Messianic Jewish Congretations.

God works very hard to recover and restore His people to witness His Words. I don't think Jews will be absorbed into the Gentile churches, but they will remain unique, believers of Yeshuah Ha Masaiah, as a whole nation.

 

[BobRyan]

I am all for Messianic Jewish groups. But the State of Israel is opposed to Christianity like some other states on earth. I do not view that as "reformation or revival" in Israel. Having said that - I pray for the peace and salvation of the peoople of all nations -- and that includes Israel.

 

[Eliyahu]

I am all for Messianic Jewish groups. But the State of Israel is opposed to Christianity like some other states on earth. I do not view that as "reformation or revival" in Israel. Having said that - I pray for the peace and salvation of the peoople of all nations -- and that includes Israel.

I know many problems with Israeli Govt now, but expect God will do something in the future for them. They will have to be changed. They started only from the physical change but later on we will see the spiritual change. The Messiah will come to Jerusalem and will reign the world from there. Satan works very hard to prevent it, but the focus of God is in Zion ( focus). That's why Israel will be treated different from other nations.

 

[BobRyan]

I realize you are making a faith statement about what you think WILL happen in the future.

But as we see it today - the nation of Israel today is not a case of "reformation" or repentance or having accepted the Gospel.

No one can doubt that.

The more Jews that come to Christ - the happier I am. If ALL of them were to suddenly come up as Christians -- TRUE Christians and not those who are simply deceived as in 2Thess 2 by some false manifestation -- then I woud be absolutely overjoyed sir.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

I realize you are making a faith statement about what you think WILL happen in the future.

But as we see it today - the nation of Israel today is not a case of "reformation" or repentance or having accepted the Gospel.

No one can doubt that.

The more Jews that come to Christ - the happier I am. If ALL of them were to suddenly come up as Christians -- TRUE Christians and not those who are simply deceived as in 2Thess 2 by some false manifestation -- then I woud be absolutely overjoyed sir.

in Christ,

Bob

Nothing could happen on this world without either Will of God or Providence of God or Allowance by God.
State of Israel was built even though they were not believers in Yeshuah yet. Maybe it is the way of God that He build the frame and structure first and then convert the people in them later. In fact there were spritual movement even before the Independence of Israel. Now God works hard to restore the Israel spiritually thru the Messianic Jewish movement. We will just participate in His work. There may be false leadership among the leaders, but God works anyway thru Holy Spirit.
Even though you and I don't show the mercy and grace to them, God will do His work and eventually Israel will return to the Lord, then there will be no reward to you and me on that matter.

 

[BobRyan]

Hitler killed 8 million Jews - as much a we may argue that nohing happens without God allowing it - I still think God was opposed to it -- He merely allowed wickedness to take place.

in the same way - demons trick people into thinking they are speaking with dead loved ones when in fact they are praying to demons. I am sure the RCC would argue that God would not allow them to be deceived in that way -- but I think that they have left themselves open to that deception by ignoring the Word of God.

To the extent that the Messianic Jewish work has any success at all in evangelizing Jews and placing them on the road to eternal life - to accepting Christ the Messiah - I give God all the praise and I strongly support them in their mission.