Israel as a Nation and God's Plan

[Smiley]

Yea. Repeat it over and over till you 'get it':

For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel

For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel

For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel

For they are not all Cowboys fans, that are of Dallas. Repeat that until you get it.



no difference....go and learn this. He's speaking to Jews and saying that many of them were not being faithful to the calling God gave them. Heck, they aren't even Dallas Cowboy fans, so how can they get to heaven!?!

This, IN NO WAY, diminishes the calling He gave them (which is irrevocable according to Romans 11:26-30 )) and, IN NO WAY, diminishes those Jews who were then, and still are, faithful to that calling.

 

[Smiley]

However, I'm told that there are more Jews in New York than in the whole of Israel. so there's a bit of a way to go yet.

That is no longer true since about 2005. More proof to someone watching for signs, and just another thing to dismiss for those who are not.

More Moslems are being saved today than ever before in history. Is that a mere coincidence, and does it have any connection to Jews becoming Christians?

[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]



Yes, it absolutely does. The arab muslims are the semitic cousins of Jacob so why wouldn't it? I can show you a few congregations around Israel where that is common.

in fact, it is LIFE FROM THE DEAD for the entire planet according to Romans 11:12-15

 

[Martin Marprelate]

That is no longer true since about 2005. More proof to someone watching for signs, and just another thing to dismiss for those who are not.



Yes, it absolutely does. The arab muslims are the semitic cousins of Jacob so why wouldn't it? I can show you a few congregations around Israel where that is common.

in fact, it is LIFE FROM THE DEAD for the entire planet according to Romans 11:12-15

I'm just delighted when anyone is saved, be he Jew, Moslem, Hindu or atheist.

 

[Smiley]

I'm just delighted when anyone is saved, be he Jew, Moslem, Hindu or atheist.

Thank you for a kind reply. That is the very reason why Jews coming to faith is important. It will be life from the dead for the entire gentile world.


And what a great day that will be

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I've always believed that if you mess with God's best (Israel), then you die like the rest.

Scripture please

 

[glad4mercy]

Replies in red.

@Smiley post: 2304931, I joined this discussion board to answer this poll....then found that that the thread is only open to Baptists. I hope that baptist brethren view themselves as part of a larger Body of Christ, and would be open to hearing the thoughts of brethren outside of denominational boundaries.

Regarding this topic, for those who read the Bible and accept what it says as true, I'm not sure why it would be controversial (and therefore limited only to baptists) or even debatable since most of what the Bible says on the topic is quite literal.

So please consider me a brother who seeks dialogue with brethren. I admit to being a bit shocked that bible-believing baptists don't know with absolute certainty that the Jewish people are being regathered to Israel in fulfillment of prophecy like never before in history. More Jewish people have come to faith since 1967 (when Jerusalem was recaptured and under Jewish control for the first time since 150 BC) than in the 2 millennia since Jesus. How can this be a mere coincidence?

I won't argue with your assertion, but there is serious doubt as to whether today's Jews, mainly from Eastern Europe, are Semitic, or descended from Abraham. And the extant to which they are conscientiously practising Biblical Judaism. The persecution of the Jews, particularly by Hitler & Co, has contributed to a guilty conscious of the Western nations, & massive support for the return of them to the Biblical homeland they lost following the rejection of the Messiah.

I suggest a reason for the "coincidence" is that there has been an (over) emphasis on OT prophecy & a claimed "literal interpretation" by the fundamentalist churches using the Scofield Bible. Israel is seen to be the focus of supposedly unfulfilled OT prophecy, rather than Christ & the Church, comprising Jew & Gentile as ONE people of God.

There is, however, no prophecy in the Gospels, Acts or Epistles, or Revelation, of a re-establishment of Israel as a nation nor of any focus on on physical Jerusalem & the land in God's purposes. We look for a New Heaven & New Earth.

It is recorded in Acts 2 that many thousands of Jews, devout men, & proselytes, came to repentance & faith in the Lord Jesus Christ from out of every nation under heaven. That large scale conversion continued, & included priests (Acts 6:7) and Pharisees. (Acts 15:5) Their welcome into Christ on repentance is asserted by Paul in Romans 11.

Both the Gospel & these Christian Jews were rejected by the national leaders with repeated persecutions. It seems they were not allowed by the Holy Spirit to maintain a "Messianic Jews" status but became one body, Jew & Gentile as one redeemed people of God. Thus the church from the outset comprised a vast majority of Jews, but that majority diminished as Gentiles were saved. Also distinctive "Jewishness" in practice ceased as the Mosaic rituals were seen to be obsolete once Christ has in person fulfilled every aspect of the Law.

The state of Israel has NO prophetic significance.

THE POLL

Seeing as the subject of modern day Israel comes up fairly often, I would like to do an 8 question straw poll on your thoughts, if you would like to join in please do!

1, Do you believe that God is currently regathering the nation of Israel from the various other nations of the world?

NO

2, Will Jesus Christ return to the current geographical location that is modern day Jerusalem?

NO - He will come to establish the NH&NE

3, Do you believe that events that happen in Modern Day Israel are evidence of the fulfillment of Bible Prophecy?

NO

4, Does the Temple have to be rebuilt before the return of Jesus Christ can take place?

Certainly NOT - it would be an act of blasphemy.


5, Will the current nation of Israel ever be expanded to its historical borders, encompassing Lebanon, Jordan and other areas?

With US help maybe - but NO prophetic significance.

6, If you traveled to Jerusalem as a tourist, would you place a prayer on paper into the wailing wall?

I have decline all such opportunities, & would discourage such activity.



7, Would traveling to Israel on vacation be something that you would consider to be a spiritual experience?

I would be interested in seeing Biblical locations - could be spiritual experience.

8, Are Palestinian Christians being treated fairly or unfairly in the occupied territories by the Israeli authorities?

"Fair" is a relative term. The answer is "yes, but some arab christians suffer the security hassles necessary to prevent what other arabs would do if those measures were not in place".

Not much different than the way I'm treated when going through an airport became someone somewhere might do something bad.

Arab Christians are horribly mistreated by Palestinian muslims in Israel. Without the nation of Israel guaranteeing their safety, there would be no Arab Christians still alive. For this reason, there is major movement in the city of Nazareth for arab christians to volunteer for the IDF (Israel Army)

All the indications from Christian sources are that Israel oppresses ALL Palestinians, Christian, Muslim & Semitic Jew. There was a sizable Arab Christian population before 1947 which has been massively reduced.

1. Yes, I believe that the Jews return to the land is a fulfillment of prophecy

2. Yes, I believe in a literal second coming of Jesus to earth to reign.

3. Yes, see number 1

4. It seems that the Bible teaches that the temple will be rebuilt before the Second Coming.

5. Not sure, but probably.

6. I might put a prayer on the Wailing Wall simply because I love the nation of Israel.

7. You can make any event a spiritual experience by experiencing God in it.

8. I havent been in the Palestinians or Israeli's shoes, so I'm not sure.

 

[Darrell C]

Hello Smiley, and welcome to the Forum. I hope your time here will be blessed and that you will be a blessing to those here.

I admit to being a bit shocked that bible-believing baptists don't know with absolute certainty that the Jewish people are being regathered to Israel in fulfillment of prophecy like never before in history.

You have to understand that there are numerous types of Baptists, and their beliefs vary greatly.

The true gathering of Israel will take place prior to the Tribulation and see it's fulfillment when Christ returns. I do think it significant that Israel has been recognized and are in the land, but, it is a largely secular nation at this point.

1, Do you believe that God is currently regathering the nation of Israel from the various other nations of the world?

I do. But I think a number of those in Israel are at this point still in need of salvation in Christ.

2, Will Jesus Christ return to the current geographical location that is modern day Jerusalem?

Yes:


Zechariah 14:1-4
King James Version (KJV)

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

3, Do you believe that events that happen in Modern Day Israel are evidence of the fulfillment of Bible Prophecy?

Not especially.

4, Does the Temple have to be rebuilt before the return of Jesus Christ can take place?

I think Prophecy demands that:


2 Thessalonians 2
King James Version (KJV)

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5, Will the current nation of Israel ever be expanded to its historical borders, encompassing Lebanon, Jordan and other areas?

I think it will maintain the borders it has always had. Be curious as to why you ask, though.

6, If you traveled to Jerusalem as a tourist, would you place a prayer on paper into the wailing wall?

No, lol.

7, Would traveling to Israel on vacation be something that you would consider to be a spiritual experience?

Wouldn't know until I got there, lol.

8, Are Palestinian Christians being treated fairly or unfairly in the occupied territories by the Israeli authorities?

From what I hear Israel is very fair to Palestinians, trying to make peace, to the point where they allow Palestinians in their government.

But its hard to know for sure everything that goes on. Due to the nature of men we could probably expect good and evil among both sides, and it may be that both sides could be commended and condemned.


Again, welcome to the Forum. Love talking about Eschatology so now a question for you: Are you pre-millennial or amillennial, and what is your view on the Rapture?


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

@Smiley asked:
1, Do you believe that God is currently re-gathering the nation of Israel from the various other nations of the world?
I see no particular sign of it. Jews under persecution have gone to Israel and America for many years. At one time, many of them came to Britain. I believe a few may have gone to Israel from France recently. I'm not aware that more than a tiny number have gone from, say, Britain.

2, Will Jesus Christ return to the current geographical location that is modern day Jerusalem?
Possibly, possibly not. Acts 1:11 says that the Lord Jesus will return 'in like manner' but not necessarily in the same place.

3, Do you believe that events that happen in Modern Day Israel are evidence of the fulfilment of Bible Prophecy?
If more Jews were becoming Christians, if most Israelis weren't secular and if Tel-a-Viv wasn't the homosexual capital of the Levant, I might perhaps be disposed to believe it.

4, Does the Temple have to be rebuilt before the return of Jesus Christ can take place?
No. It will never be rebuilt. The Lord Jesus is the One greater than the Temple. The New Jerusalem comes down from heaven and does not have a Temple for that very reason.

5, Will the current nation of Israel ever be expanded to its historical borders, encompassing Lebanon, Jordan and other areas?
I certainly hope not. It would involve huge amounts of bloodshed. God's land promises to Israel were fulfilled many years ago (Joshua 21:44-45; 1 Kings 4:20-25).

6, If you travelled to Jerusalem as a tourist, would you place a prayer on paper into the wailing wall?
Under no circumstances. I am a Christian, not a Jew.

7, Would traveling to Israel on vacation be something that you would consider to be a spiritual experience?
I would quite like to visit the area around Galilee some day and see the places where our Lord lived and taught.
I have no great desire to go to Jerusalem or Bethlehem and see monks squabbling over which is the real tomb. He's not there any more.
I absolutely deny that one part of the world is more 'holy' or 'spiritual' than another (Psalm 24:1-2).

8, Are Palestinian Christians being treated fairly or unfairly in the occupied territories by the Israeli authorities?
Not certain.

The greatest need of Israel and Israelis is the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, just as it is for the Moslem nations.[/QUOTE]

 

[1689Dave]

I joined this discussion board to answer this poll....then found that that the thread is only open to Baptists. I hope that baptist brethren view themselves as part of a larger Body of Christ, and would be open to hearing the thoughts of brethren outside of denominational boundaries.

Regarding this topic, for those who read the Bible and accept what it says as true, I'm not sure why it would be controversial (and therefore limited only to baptists) or even debatable since most of what the Bible says on the topic is quite literal.

So please consider me a brother who seeks dialogue with brethren. I admit to being a bit shocked that bible-believing baptists don't know with absolute certainty that the Jewish people are being regathered to Israel in fulfillment of prophecy like never before in history. More Jewish people have come to faith since 1967 (when Jerusalem was recaptured and under Jewish control for the first time since 150 BC) than in the 2 millennia since Jesus. How can this be a mere coincidence?



THE POLL

Seeing as the subject of modern day Israel comes up fairly often, I would like to do an 8 question straw poll on your thoughts, if you would like to join in please do!

1, Do you believe that God is currently regathering the nation of Israel from the various other nations of the world?

Absolutely! It seems obvious to those who are closely watching the signs of the times.




2, Will Jesus Christ return to the current geographical location that is modern day Jerusalem?

According to His words, and the testimony of 2 angels who saw him ascend into heaven, He will descend in the same place. The Mount of Olives (east Jerusalem) is in Israel, yes.





3, Do you believe that events that happen in Modern Day Israel are evidence of the fulfillment of Bible Prophecy?

It depends on which "events" are being referenced, but yes, God's plan for the end of days are ALL centered around events that will happen in Israel.




4, Does the Temple have to be rebuilt before the return of Jesus Christ can take place?

The third Temple? probably




5, Will the current nation of Israel ever be expanded to its historical borders, encompassing Lebanon, Jordan and other areas?


If the bible is true.





6, If you traveled to Jerusalem as a tourist, would you place a prayer on paper into the wailing wall?

Have done so several times. Prayer is always good no matter where it happens.







7, Would traveling to Israel on vacation be something that you would consider to be a spiritual experience?

Yes. I believe it is important enough to have produced a virtual tour of Israel so everyone else can go right now without leaving home. If you understand what virtual reality is, then I offer this experience for free at culturalXchange.org







8, Are Palestinian Christians being treated fairly or unfairly in the occupied territories by the Israeli authorities?

"Fair" is a relative term. The answer is "yes, but some arab christians suffer the security hassles necessary to prevent what other arabs would do if those measures were not in place".

Not much different than the way I'm treated when going through an airport became someone somewhere might do something bad.

Arab Christians are horribly mistreated by Palestinian muslims in Israel. Without the nation of Israel guaranteeing their safety, there would be no Arab Christians still alive. For this reason, there is major movement in the city of Nazareth for arab christians to volunteer for the IDF (Israel Army)

I believe God broke off the unbelieving Jews from Israel. And grafted believing gentiles into their place. So Israel proper continued under Christ as believers only. Also called the Church. And the broken off Jews remain under God's wrath as gentiles, until the end. But, for the sake of the fathers, God will and has already brought many to faith in Christ, re-attaching them.

 

[kyredneck]

I believe God broke off the unbelieving Jews from Israel. And grafted believing gentiles into their place. So Israel proper continued under Christ as believers only. Also called the Church. And the broken off Jews remain under God's wrath as gentiles, until the end. But, for the sake of the fathers, God will and has already brought many to faith in Christ, re-attaching them.

Pretty good articulation,

 

[kyredneck]

2, Will Jesus Christ return to the current geographical location that is modern day Jerusalem?
Possibly, possibly not. Acts 1:11 says that the Lord Jesus will return 'in like manner' but not necessarily in the same place.

Lo, there! Lo, here!

Not.

 

[Covenanter]

Judging by this Haaretz report, God has totally abandoned the corrupt nation of Israel, totally ceased striving with them, declared them "uncircumcised in heart" & therefore in total rejection of his covenant.

Deputy Knesset Speaker Bezalel Smotrich (Habayit Hayehudi) wrote on Twitter Saturday.

“In my opinion, she should have gotten a bullet, at least in the kneecap,” he wrote. “That would have put her under house arrest for the rest of her life.”

When Jesus comes, it will NOT be to restore the kingdom, but to vindicate the oppressed and destroy the wicked.