Israel at war

[atpollard]

Let's hope that, since support for sending U.S. taxpayers money and U.S. taxpayers-paid equipment to Ukraine is starting to falter, the neoconservatives/neoliberals will not be able use this war between Israel and Hamas to send even more U.S. taxpayers money and U.S. taxpayers-paid equipment to another foreign country, in this case, Israel.

"Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will commend the general cause by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. She well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom."

- U.S. Secretary of State John Quincy Adams, July 4,1821

Without French aid, including our warships, the War of Independence would likely have been a footnote in the history of the British Empire … alongside the Jacobite rebellions of the era.

 

[atpollard]

We should send any and all support to Israel.

I am of the impression that Israel can take care of itself. What it needs is to be allowed to take care of itself without being “arm twisted” into restraint or concessions that are contrary to its survival as a nation.

If attacked, let them defend themselves.

 

[KenH]

Without French aid, including our warships, the War of Independence would likely have been a footnote in the history of the British Empire … alongside the Jacobite rebellions of the era.

Regardless, I agree with John Quincy Adams. If anything, your statement would mean that the U.S. could come to the aid of France if they were attacked, which obligation the United States already fulfilled in World War I.. That has nothing to with the United States, with a rapidly expanding national debt of over $33 trillion, going further into debt to see aid to any other country.

 

[atpollard]

Regardless, I agree with John Quincy Adams. If anything, your statement would mean that the U.S. could come to the aid of France if they were attacked, which obligation the United States already fulfilled in World War I.. That has nothing to with the United States, with a rapidly expanding national debt of over $33 trillion, going further into debt to see aid to any other country.

Look closer at where the money is going.

I agree that we waste far too much money on Subsidies (corporate welfare) and WAR, but even of we zero-out all discretionary spending (nothing for subsidies, military, foreign aid, etc) it would still not balance the budget.

Social Security, Welfare and Health are the lion’s share of the budget and combined they are growing faster than revenue. They require an act of Congress (laws) to change that spending, and they create a deficit all by themselves most years.

We need to significantly grow the economy or have a hard conversation about entitlements. Until then, arguing about millions in foreign aid or billions in defense spending against a back drop of trillions (thousands of billions) in entitlements is just “straining gnats”.

 

[Conan]

We spend trillions on offense, not defense. With a portion of our military budget we could wipe out world hunger. Only a tiny drop and we could end homelessness in the United States. We outspend China Russia and everyone on this planet. We have over 800 bases around the world to control other nations. We are warmongers, and are responsible for all wars on this planet. The cio spends hundreds of billions alone on misinformation, including on us. Look at election interference by the fvi alone. Of course the ci0 and pentagon were in on it as well. We miss trillions of dollars whenever there is a audit of the pentagon. Where does that dishonesty come from?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

“I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

― Smedley D. Butler, War is a Racket

Semper Fi

 

[atpollard]

We spend trillions on offense, not defense.

FYI:

Statement by Secretary of Defense on the President’s
Fiscal Year 2023 Budget

“I am proud to join President Biden in submitting the fiscal year 2023 Budget. Our
department’s budget will help us continue to defend the nation, take care of our people
and succeed through teamwork with our allies and partners.

This $773 billion budget request reinforces our commitment to the concept of integrated
deterrence, allows us to better sequence and conduct operations around the globe that
are aligned to our priorities, modernizes the Joint Force, and delivers meaningful
support for our dedicated workforce and their families.

As I have said many times, we need resources matched to strategy, strategy matched
to policy and policy matched to the will of the American people.

This budget gives us the resources we need to deliver on that promise. Our budget
reflects our National Defense Strategy and the focus of that strategy on the pacing
challenge of China. It will help us prepare for other future challenges, as well, including
those posed by climate change. It preserves our readiness and deterrent posture
against the threats we face today: the acute threat of an aggressive Russia and the
constantly emerging threats posed by North Korea, Iran, and violent extremist
organizations. And it absolutely supports our policy of U.S. global leadership of — and
responsibility for — our vast network of alliances and partnerships.

I am proud of the work that has gone into this budget request, and I look forward to
discussing it with members of Congress in the days and weeks ahead.”

– Secretary of Defense Lloyd J. Austin III
​

From CBO (2023 Budget):

Total Outlays = $6,221 billion

Mandatory (by law, like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid) = $3,840 billion
Discretionary (including Defense Budget) = $1,741 billion
Interest = $640 billion​

So we spend almost as much on interest as we do on Defense and even eliminating the ENTIRE defense budget will not eliminate the $1,410 billion budget deficit. (We need to know the real numbers if we are going to solve the real problems.)

​

 

[KenH]

arguing about millions in foreign aid or billions in defense spending

More like in the vicinity of $1 trillion all put together - the military, the CIA, foreign aid.

 

[KenH]

I agree that we waste far too much money on Subsidies (corporate welfare) and WAR, but even of we zero-out all discretionary spending (nothing for subsidies, military, foreign aid, etc) it would still not balance the budget.

With the federal government running $2 trillion budget deficits year after year after year, if the Democrats and Republicans keep kicking the can down the road, there will eventually be no can left to kick.

A country that is financially in dire straits cannot fund a military the size that the United States is used to. At some point, running yearly $2 trillion deficits, the U.S. will be in quite dire straits financially. At what national debt amount does that happen? $40 trillion(the U.S. will probably reach that in 2026)? $45 trillion? $50 trillion?

In order to balance the federal budget before the United States falls into financial ruin will require EVERYTHING to be on the table - taxes, the military, Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, transportation, education, etc. - ALL spending and ALL sources of revenue.

 

[Revmitchell]

[QUOTE="Conan, post: 2865013, member: 15211]"We are warmongers, and are responsible for all wars on this planet. [/QUOTE]


Prove it.

 

[Revmitchell]

I am of the impression that Israel can take care of itself. What it needs is to be allowed to take care of itself without being “arm twisted” into restraint or concessions that are contrary to its survival as a nation.

If attacked, let them defend themselves.

Since Iran is funding this along with Syria and Lebanon they need our assistance.

 

[KenH]

Since Iran is funding this along with Syria and Lebanon they need our assistance.

Are you willing to have your taxes raised to pay for this assistance or just add it to the rapidly expanding national debt, thus hastening the day when the United States would face financial ruin?

 

[KenH]

Some questions:

1) Why was a Trance Music Festival being held 3 miles or so from the Gaza border? It would be like Ukrainians holding a music festival in eastern Ukraine 3 miles from the Russian border.

I had not heard of trance music before. It is some weird stuff: "A trance is a state of hypnotism and heightened consciousness. This is portrayed in trance music by the mixing of layers with distinctly foreshadowed build-up and release. A common characteristic of modern trance music is a mid-song climax followed by a soft breakdown disposing of beats and percussion entirely, leaving the melody or atmospherics to stand alone for an extended period before gradually building up again. Trance tracks are often lengthy to allow for such progression and commonly have sufficiently sparse opening and closing sections to facilitate mixing by DJs. (Trance music - Wikipedia)

2) Israeli intelligence is regarded as among the best in the world. How did they miss months of planning and training that went on prior to the attack?

3) Netanyahu has been under pressure for a while over his judicial reform efforts. With this attack, as all countries seem to do(think 9/11/2001 in the U.S.), people rally around the leader of the country.

I'm not saying that anything untoward was going on, but there do seem to have been some rather odd things going on. Maybe it was just the general lack of judgment that human beings are so often afflicted with.

 

[Revmitchell]

Some questions:

1) Why was a Trance Music Festival being held 3 miles or so from the Gaza border? It would be like Ukrainians holding a music festival in eastern Ukraine 3 miles from the Russian border.

I had not heard of trance music before. It is some weird stuff: "A trance is a state of hypnotism and heightened consciousness. This is portrayed in trance music by the mixing of layers with distinctly foreshadowed build-up and release. A common characteristic of modern trance music is a mid-song climax followed by a soft breakdown disposing of beats and percussion entirely, leaving the melody or atmospherics to stand alone for an extended period before gradually building up again. Trance tracks are often lengthy to allow for such progression and commonly have sufficiently sparse opening and closing sections to facilitate mixing by DJs. (Trance music - Wikipedia)

The event and those activities have nothing to do with the attack by the Terrorists. One has nothing to do with the other.

2) Israeli intelligence is regarded as among the best in the world. How did they miss months of planning and training that went on prior to the attack?

This is a question everyone is asking. It appears from Hamas' own claims they kept this among a very select few.

3) Netanyahu has been under pressure for a while over his judicial reform efforts. With this attack, as all countries seem to do(think 9/11/2001 in the U.S.), people rally around the leader of the country.

Again one thing has nothing to do with the other.

I'm not saying that anything untoward was going on, but there do seem to have been some rather odd things going on. Maybe it was just the general lack of judgment that human beings are so often afflicted with.

Trying to read too much into a situation that we have an inclination to want to criticize is not uncommon either.

 

[KenH]

The event and those activities have nothing to do with the attack by the Terrorists. One has nothing to do with the other.

If the festival was not 3 miles from the Gaza border, but, say, it had been outside Tel Aviv, would it have been so stridently attacked?

If you were living in Ukraine, would you attend a festival 3 miles from the border of Russia?

 

[Revmitchell]

If the festival was not 3 miles from the Gaza border, but, say, it had been outside Tel Aviv, would it have been so stridently attacked?

If you were living in Ukraine, would you attend a festival 3 miles from the border of Russia?

Apples and oranges

 

[KenH]

Apples and oranges

We disagree. It was foolish to hold a festival 3 miles from the the border of enemy territory.

Also, I am opposed to the neoconservative/neoliberal foreign adventurism agenda. I urge all citizens of the United States to oppose their agenda, as well.

 

[Revmitchell]

We disagree. It was foolish to hold a festival 3 miles from the the border of enemy territory.

Also, I am opposed to the neoconservative/neoliberal foreign adventurism agenda. I urge all citizens of the United States to oppose their agenda, as well.

Well I am not a neoconservative but Iran is crying out death to America. Palestinians (a misnomer) are crying out Islam will be in every household. And those are just the protests right now in America. Further, they took Americans hostage and killed some. This requires a response and total defeat.

The Israel lives with Palestinians coming and going throughout Israel every day. You know nothing of the region nor the relationship with each other. You are talking about things you know not of.

 

[KenH]

but Iran is crying out death to America

They've been doing that since 1979.

Further, they took Americans hostage and killed some. This requires a response and total defeat.

1) Were they U.S. citizens visiting Israel, or some of the many with dual Israeli-U.S. citizenship.

2) If you want the U.S. to respond with total defeat to every country or group that mistreats Americans abroad, then you are basically advocating for a Word War II-level response.

Well I am not a neoconservative

Maybe not, but you certainly sound like a fellow traveler with them.

You are talking about things you know not of.

You have lived in that area near the Gaza border?

 

[Revmitchell]

They've been doing that since 1979.



1) Were they U.S. citizens visiting Israel, or some of the many with dual Israeli-U.S. citizenship.

2) If you want the U.S. to respond with total defeat to every country or group that mistreats Americans abroad, then you are basically advocating for a Word War II-level response.



Maybe not, but you certainly sound like a fellow traveler with them.



You have lived in that area near the Gaza border?

Lived no but I have been there, in that area. I have talked with them been to their homes. It is not the general population of the GAZA strip that is the issue. It is Hamas that bullies those people and then hides their terrorist buddies and all their military equipment in the general population. And I have driven through Gaza.