Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
Ugh, because I am following my thread which I started and therefore staying on topic ok?
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Israel is still an enemy of the gospel of Christ
- Thread starter Scott Downey
- Start date
You're making a flawed point, though, singling out jews. And you're posting in the wrong forum.
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
No, this is related to my first post, so it is a news, current event thread.
And being a generally Christian forum, we can tie in scriptures to our current world understanding, or there is no point of discussion here, go to some secular profane site. Hebrews 12:16
You just dont like it. If you dont like it, dont post on it.
How many of us would prefer to be a profane person such as Esau then?
pro·fane
/prəˈfān/
adjective
- 1.
relating or devoted to that which is not sacred or biblical; secular rather than religious.
Yes but - the nation calling itself "Israel" is certainly NOT the church, nor is it the Israel of God. What was included in the first promise to Abram?
".... And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
Paul did distinguish between Jewish believers & unbelievers - he did not consider unbelievers were true Israel, true Jews. Believers, both Jew & Gentile are true Israel, true Jews -
Rom. 2: 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; 29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
I was thinking about a secular song I like - "A place called England" and adapted a verse - England is not .... - for a place called Israel -
Israel is not flag nor temple,
it is not land nor common blood.
It's love for God & love for neighbour;
living faith in our Saviour God.
It's justice, peace & godly living;
redemption bought by Jesus' blood;
freely sharing, freely giving;
peace with man & peace with God.
it is not land nor common blood.
It's love for God & love for neighbour;
living faith in our Saviour God.
It's justice, peace & godly living;
redemption bought by Jesus' blood;
freely sharing, freely giving;
peace with man & peace with God.
I repeat with absolute relevance - The holy nation prophesied in Exodus 19 is taken up by Peter in 1 Peter 2 as the church comprising the redeemed people of God, both Jews & Gentiles as one people.
Exo. 19:“This is what you are to say to the descendants of Jacob and what you are to tell the people of Israel: 4 ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to Egypt, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself. 5 Now if you obey me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all nations you will be my treasured possession. Although the whole earth is mine, 6 you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.’
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
Now, Calminian, please show me where Paul writes of Israel as a special nation apart from faith in the LORD Jesus Christ.
There are saved jews, who are spiritual Israel!
Yes, and Paul revealed to us that the hardening from God came in order to have gentiles allowed into the way of salvation, and then once done with us, he will turn back to dealing with israel!
I don't like subtle antisemitism, but that doesn't mean I walk away and don't challenge it. Paul challenged it in Romans 11. John warned about it in Rev. 12. I bring the Bible to bear, and let the chips fall.
many in history have "used" the Jews rejecting Jesus as Messiah to excuse anti semetic behavior, even someone like a Luther got caught up in that!
Paul referred to unbelieving Israel as Israel.
Rom. 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom. 11:9 And David says:
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”
Rom. 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
Rom. 11:9 And David says:
“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
A stumbling block and a recompense to them.
10 Let their eyes be darkened, so that they do not see,
And bow down their back always.”
Rom. 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
This is really easy stuff. Paul speaks refers to unbelieving Israel as Israel. You, for some odd reason, refuse.
And Paul never referred to the Church as Israel. He never told believing gentles they were Israel in fact Scripture often refers to believe Gentiles as just that—believing or God-fearing Gentiles.
The distinction is always there. Always.
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Indeed. And there are myriads of unbelieving Gentiles. The point I'm making is, Paul never ceased calling unbelieving jews, jews, nor unbelieving Israel, Israel. While he identified believing Jews (he himself being one), he never stripped his kinsman of their title, in fact, he defended it.
Jews are still Jews!
Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
In Romans 9, Paul tells us who is the true Israel of God. And by saying what Paul says in verse 6 here,
" For they are not all Israel who are of Israel," Paul does distinguish the difference between who is really the Israel of God and who is a fake copy.
For one thing Paul and Christ both say this same thing about the fakes versus the true regarding who is the descendent of Abraham, and it must be for those born according to the Spirit, not according to the flesh, the bloodline genetic descendents. To be true Israel, you must be born from above and that is according to God's choice, then your a child of the promise, so of God, and not the flesh which is the Devil's domain, the prince of this world.
So there is most certainly a distinction drawn by Paul and Christ as to who is Israel and who are pretenders.
None of the true Israel of God have Satan as their Father, refer to John 8 so they are not Israel are they, indeed how could they be Israel.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
John 8
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
44 You are of your father the devil,
" For they are not all Israel who are of Israel," Paul does distinguish the difference between who is really the Israel of God and who is a fake copy.
For one thing Paul and Christ both say this same thing about the fakes versus the true regarding who is the descendent of Abraham, and it must be for those born according to the Spirit, not according to the flesh, the bloodline genetic descendents. To be true Israel, you must be born from above and that is according to God's choice, then your a child of the promise, so of God, and not the flesh which is the Devil's domain, the prince of this world.
So there is most certainly a distinction drawn by Paul and Christ as to who is Israel and who are pretenders.
None of the true Israel of God have Satan as their Father, refer to John 8 so they are not Israel are they, indeed how could they be Israel.
6 But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, 7 nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.” 8 That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. 9 For this is the word of promise: “At this time I will come and Sarah shall have a son.”
10 And not only this, but when Rebecca also had conceived by one man, even by our father Isaac 11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls), 12 it was said to her, “The older shall serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”
John 8
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
33 They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.
Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s
37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word.
44 You are of your father the devil,
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Yes, we just discussed and debunked this point. See posts above. While Paul did identify the true believing Jews, that he himself was, he also when on to speak of unbelieving Israel and unbelieving Jews. He never took their title way, and spoke of their future redemption. He always made a distinction.
Paul was stating that only those Jews saved by Yeshua were really of faith of Abraham and spirituals Israel!
The point I think we agree on is that there is no salvation for Jews as Jews, not for Israelites as Israelites. All are commanded to REPENT. Salvation is a faith relationship with our LORD Jesus Christ.
Scott has referred us to Jesus teaching in John 8. John the baptist said much the same -
Mat. 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, 9 and do not think to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. 10 And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire
Israeli Jews & Jews who disown the Israeli nation are all welcomed by the Gospel, but none are saved except by the Gospel. The persecution of Jews down the centuries was & is evil. Jews & Gentiles when saved are one body in the church of Jesus Christ.
I've revised my verse -
Israel is not land nor temple,
it is not flag nor common race.
It's all redeemed from every land
by Jesus' blood and God's free grace.
It's love for God & love for neighbour;
feeding on the living Word
justice, mercy, godly living;
peace with man & peace with God.
I maintain that from the first promise to Abraham, God's purpose was to save people from all families, all nations. His plan began with Abram & his descendants, including all who joined Israel in Covenant relationship, such as Ruth. That purpose was always through one Seed - the Messiah. We see in the Gospels how Jesus fulfilled all prophecy by keeping every aspect of the Old Covenant Law, and superseded it by the New Covenant in his blood. it is not flag nor common race.
It's all redeemed from every land
by Jesus' blood and God's free grace.
It's love for God & love for neighbour;
feeding on the living Word
justice, mercy, godly living;
peace with man & peace with God.
The New Covenant is the only saving Covenant and is a faith relationship for all the redeemed by Christ & born again by the Holy Spirit.
All who oppose the Gospel are enemies of God & his Christ. The nation calling itself "Israel" takes a religious stand against all non-Jews, so is in a state of enmity against the Gospel of Christ.
Very strange statement. Paul was a jew and saved as a jew. He stated unequivocally he was a jew of the tribe of Benjamin. He never renounced his ethnic identification.
One can be saved as a jew, saved as a gentile, saved as an Israelite, saved as a Greek.
I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.
Paul wrote -
Phil. 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the mutilation! 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh, 4 though I also might have confidence in the flesh. If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
7 But what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
Being a Jew by race or circumcision has no saving merit, nor does it disqualify. God commands all people everywhere to repent.
Remember Jesus told the Samaritan woman -
John 4:21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Note that Paul writes of ALL true believers -
For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
That is tantamount to writing "believers are spiritual Israel, spiritual Jews."Scott Downey
Well-Known Member
John chapter 1 also says it this way, regarding salvation in reference to the Jews, 'not of blood', who also did not receive Him as Lord.
John 1
10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born ,not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
And Paul also says it like this. the circumcision is from the heart, in the Spirit, so then the heart change is from God Himself.
God's promise in the New Covenant is to write His laws in their hearts and minds so they will not turn away. Hebrews 8:7-13, obsoleting the old covenant.
Romans 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh;
Romans 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
The jews, God specifically blinded them so very few believed so they could not believe in Him just as Isaiah prophesied God would do long before Christ appeared to them. And David laid on the jews a severe judgement, since David was a prophet, this was of God too.
Which is what you should have said. Instead you say you cannot be saved as a jew. Very strange you're so obsessed with making misleading statements like this.
You guys are ranting on Israel as if somehow they're different from gentiles.
We as saved gentiles should be thankful for the Jewish people, as they kept for us the OT and gave to us the Messiah!