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Israel - The Land - Which Land?

LadyEagle

<b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>
And all this time I have been assured that dispensationalists are consistent literalists.
In the Bible, figurative language is always intended to convey a literal truth.

Scripture is taken literally unless to do so would be absurd, i.e., Jesus says "I am the vine." Jesus is not a literal green vine, that would be absurd.

Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life - no man cometh to the Father except by me." That is not absurd, it is true.

Probably haven't stated it very well; maybe Dr. Bob or someone will come along to articulate it better than I can.

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[ August 23, 2005, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: LadyEagle ]
 

Bunyon

New Member
LadyEagle-"Now that Replacement Theologians have applauded each other, can we move on to what the Bible says about the land?"

LE, you crack me up!

Can it just be chance that the Jews have arrived back in Israel, after surviving 2000 yrs of persecution, Just at a time most aggree is the end time? Maybe I'll win the lottery tomorrow?
 

Paul of Eugene

New Member
Of course the jewish nation is signifigant. But just remember we don't know what's going to happen to it. Consider that they continue to reject God's Messiah.
 

Dr. Bob

Administrator
Administrator
Actually don't think so, Ken. Among truly born-again (we would say "evangelicals") a pre-mil position is very common.

Not all will agree pre-trib/mid-trib/pre-wrath/post-trib, but all of them pre-mil.

And all dispensationalists who desperately try to distinguish between the spiritual believer (jew or gentile) and the physical Israel would agree.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
Among truly born-again (we would say "evangelicals")
While on this earth I probably have a more generous definition of "truly born again" than you use. Since I can't actually know the condition of a person's heart I give other people the benefit of the doubt.

But I do understand that many Christians have fallen for premillennial teaching...unfortunately. :(
 

Dragoon68

Active Member
Originally posted by KenH:
Yes, they received all the land they were promised. And now Jesus has come and broken down the wall that separated Jews and Gentiles. Now we have the church that Jesus Christ promised to build.

And we have better promises than the Israelites received and that were fulfilled in the Old Testament. The promises now, to Jew and Gentile alike, is for eternal happiness, not a brief time on some parcel of land.
Amen, KenH!

The "children of Israel" refers to all those chosen by God as His children. This is not the same as either the ancient nation of "Israel" or the modern nation - lands and peoples - who occupy an area similar to the ancient nation of the same name.

Acts 1:6-8:
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
The followers of Christ were expecting the Lord to restore the nation of Israel much as it had been in ancient times. The Lord, however, clearly had other plans.

Romans 9:30-33:
What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Paul made it clear that Gentiles had attained that which Jews had not. The "whosoever" are not limited to either Gentiles or Jews.

Romans 11:25-27:
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
Paul further made it clear that Jews would be saved by the same means as Gentiles.

Ephensians 2:11-13:
Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
By these verses we know that we are no longer "aliens from the commonwealth of Israel" but have been "made nigh by the blood of Christ" and thereby are children of Israel.

Hebrews 8:6-13:
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Becasue of these verses we can understand that the Lord has made a new covenant - a "better" covenant - that extends beyond compliance with the law - in which we had no hope - but rests upon the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ alone and is not limited by geography, earthly governments, or tribal leaders. We can now know that God has written his law into our "hearts" and we are His "people" - the true children of Israel who will be presented blameless to the Father by the Son through His work.

Revelations 7:1-12:
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand. After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
Here, in Revelations, we have a vision of the angels of God sealing His children from the "four corners of the earth" and of every tribe of all "nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues". These are the children of Israel.
 

Dragoon68

Active Member
Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LadyEagle:
We won't be spending eternity in heaven, Ken. We will live on earth in the New Earth in the New Jerusalem. Back to topic...
I agree we will be living on the New Earth but the New Jerusalem is the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]When Jesus comes again it will all be over and the eternal state will commence immediately thereafter. There is no reason for the Lord to continue a struggle on earth - new or old - for another thousand years to attain a final victory over Satan that He already won in eternity and manifested by His resurrection over the power of death. He will come again - one more time, gather up His children, make His final judgment over all, send His children to eternal life in Heaven at His side, and banish all others to Hell for an eternal life of separation from God. No elaborate play envolving mankind on this earth is necessary for God's final act of justice.
 

Bunyon

New Member
Dr. Bob- "And all dispensationalists who desperately try to distinguish between the spiritual believer (jew or gentile) and the physical Israel would agree."

Dr. Bob, could you be a modern day Wycliff and put this into English for me? I apologize for my obtusness. :confused:
 

OldRegular

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Dragoon68:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by OldRegular:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LadyEagle:
We won't be spending eternity in heaven, Ken. We will live on earth in the New Earth in the New Jerusalem. Back to topic...
I agree we will be living on the New Earth but the New Jerusalem is the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ. </font>[/QUOTE]When Jesus comes again it will all be over and the eternal state will commence immediately thereafter. There is no reason for the Lord to continue a struggle on earth - new or old - for another thousand years to attain a final victory over Satan that He already won in eternity and manifested by His resurrection over the power of death. He will come again - one more time, gather up His children, make His final judgment over all, send His children to eternal life in Heaven at His side, and banish all others to Hell for an eternal life of separation from God. No elaborate play envolving mankind on this earth is necessary for God's final act of justice. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree except I believe that we will spend eternity in the New Heavens and New Earth or as some believe in the heavens and earth restored to their original state. [By heaven I do not mean the current abode of God but the visible heavens.] Also agreed with your earlier post.
 
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