Israel & The Land

[Humblesmith]

What does the Bible teach about Israel and the land? Do they have a right to the land, or did they lose it when they rejected Jesus? Does God have plans for national Israel or have they been cut off?

Find out what the Bible says in our deep dive into the passages that talk about what the Bible says about Israel and the land:

 

[xlsdraw]

Ezekiel chapters 36 through 48 have clearly not yet occurred. But they will. I hope to be able one day to fish in the Dead Sea when it becomes the bountiful body of water that is renewed to life by the healing water that flows from underneath the threshold of the Temple.

 

[Baptizo]

Depends. Those who believe in Replacement Theology believe that the Church replaces Israel. That is not my view. I believe there were promises given to Abraham’s physical descendants who are now gathered as a nation.

 

[tyndale1946]

Depends. Those who believe in Replacement Theology believe that the Church replaces Israel. That is not my view. I believe there were promises given to Abraham’s physical descendants who are now gathered as a nation.

Galatians 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

Brother Glen

 

[canadyjd]

I don’t see a biblical future for “national Israel”.

What I see is God has planned all along to have a people for Himself, made up of both Jew and Gentile, that are (together) the “Israel of God”. Romans 9

According to Ephesians, the two groups (Jew and Gentile) have been made into “one new man” by the cross of Jesus Christ.

That “new man” cannot be separated because the work of Christ on the cross cannot be undone.

There will not be a third Temple in Jerusalem where Jesus rules on the earth.

peace to you

 

[Baptizo]

Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

Romans 11:17-24 - And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

The physical children of Abraham (Israel) are the root of the olive tree but their branches are cut off in unbelief. The spiritual children of Abraham (Gentiles) get their branches grafted into the olive tree by believing, held together not by the root but by the Spirit. The present day nation of Israel (the root) are cut off from the olive tree.

 

[canadyjd]

Romans 11:17-24 - ……
The physical children of Abraham (Israel) are the root of the olive tree but their branches are cut off in unbelief. The spiritual children of Abraham (Gentiles) get their branches grafted into the olive tree by believing, held together not by the root but by the Spirit. The present day nation of Israel (the root) are cut off from the olive tree.

I disagree. In this analogy, the “root” refers to Abraham.. the natural branches his physical descendants and the wild branches are gentiles grafted into the tree by faith.

peace to you

 

[Baptizo]

the “root” refers to Abraham

I would say Abraham is the root as well as all those who are of his lineage.

I certainly don't claim to be dogmatic about my perspective. There are different angles you can look at this especially if you read Revelation which has a Jewish connotation after Chapter 3. Then you have the preterists who would say Revelation has been fully or partially fulfilled. I believe it speaks of future events surrounding Israel as a nation. This is based on early church history that suggests Revelation was written around 95 AD after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. We could open a separate thread on that if you'd like but this is what makes the most sense to me.

 

[tyndale1946]

Romans 11:17-24 - And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

The physical children of Abraham (Israel) are the root of the olive tree but their branches are cut off in unbelief. The spiritual children of Abraham (Gentiles) get their branches grafted into the olive tree by believing, held together not by the root but by the Spirit.

Romans 11:17-24 - And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

The physical children of Abraham (Israel) are the root of the olive tree but their branches are cut off in unbelief. The spiritual children of Abraham (Gentiles) get their branches grafted into the olive tree by believing, held together not by the root but by the Spirit.

Why did you stop there?... Quote the rest of it... Brother Glen

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

All are spiritual Jews and Gentiles... Brother Glen

 

[Baptizo]

And so all Israel shall be saved

Has this prophecy been fulfilled?

 

[canadyjd]

Has this prophecy been fulfilled?

The “Israel of God” refers to both Jews and Gentiles that are children of the promise (saved by faith) and they make up “All Israel”.

He doesn’t say all Jews, though I do believe when God lifts the blindness from the Jews concerning Jesus as their Messiah, there will be mass conversions within the population.

But no, that prophecy hasn’t occurred yet, imo.

peace to you

 

[timtofly]

There will not be a third Temple in Jerusalem where Jesus rules on the earth.

So Jesus will sit on a throne outside with no building to cover over that throne?

Or do you see a tent/tabernacle covering the throne?

Matthew 25:31

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

 

[tyndale1946]

Has this prophecy been fulfilled?

When John looked. it had been... Brother Glen

Revelation 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

 

[timtofly]

I disagree. In this analogy, the “root” refers to Abraham.. the natural branches his physical descendants and the wild branches are gentiles grafted into the tree by faith.

peace to you

Romans 11 is not talking about the natural seed of Abraham. There was only one seed of Abraham that God wrestled with, and that was Jacob. God did not call Abraham, Israel. God did not call Isaac, Israel. God did not call Esau, Israel. The only seed God called Israel was Jacob. Jacob was the physical name. Israel was his spiritual name.

That was also mentioned a few chapters earlier: Romans 9

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. )

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

But the natural branches are not just about Jacob. The term Israel was only granted as long as they remained in faith with Jesus as the Messiah. Jesus is the root, not Jacob, and certainly not Abraham. Abraham had many physical branches other than Jacob that had nothing to do with Israel/Jesus Christ as the spiritual root.

God chose Isaac, when Sarah had chosen Hagar. God chose Jacob, when Isaac had chosen Esau. God was already at work in the conception process, planning ahead.

That is why in Romans 11, Paul could say that Israel had been natural branches, as the physical offspring of Jacob, but now since the Cross, all the natural branches were cut off, and all humanity had to be grafted in as wild branches without ethnic distinction.

However, at the Second Coming, those alive at that point, will be returned in part, a remnant to being natural branches. But not just Israel. All of humanity at that point will be stripped out of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. Some to everlasting damnation. A few to everlasting righteousness. It will still not matter when it comes to ethnicity. A remnant of all nations will have been removed from the punishment of sin and death. The wheat in Matthew 13, represents all mankind. The sheep of Matthew 25, represents the restoration of Israel. The goats and tares tossed into the LOF.

Paul wrote at the beginning of 2 millenia, and what Paul wrote defined those 2 millenia. When the Second Coming happens all things will change again, and what we have known will be remembered no more, even more so than how the second birth replaced the natural physical branches.

 

[kyredneck]

I did a poll on the BB some years back on Gen 12:3:

God’s blessing upon a people and nation will depend on how they treat Israel today

Yes - 26 votes – 57.8%
No – 19 votes – 42.2%

Lol, some Dispys consider Jews in the same category as a 'lucky rabbit's foot'.

 

[canadyjd]

So Jesus will sit on a throne outside with no building to cover over that throne?

Or do you see a tent/tabernacle covering the throne?

Matthew 25:31

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

The throne Jesus sits upon is in heaven. There willl be no rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem.

And even if the Temple is rebuilt, was David’s throne in the first Temple? Was there a throne in the Temple?

Not from what I’ve seen in scripture. If you can show me from scripture that King David had a throne in the temple I’ll admit I’m in error.

I’ll wait patiently.

Peace to you

 

[kyredneck]

So Jesus will sit on a throne outside with no building to cover over that throne?

Or do you see a tent/tabernacle covering the throne?

I'm guessing you've totally missed the gist of Luke 17:23-24. Christ is telling them that 'in His day' [THAT BEING TODAY], He won't be 'in the desert' or in a 'secret chamber' or in Jerusalem or any other particular location on earth, He will be EVERYWHERE (as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west):

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4

22 And no man putteth new wine into old wineskins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine perisheth, and the skins: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins. Mark 2

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10

...etc....

 

[timtofly]

The throne Jesus sits upon is in heaven. There willl be no rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem.

And even if the Temple is rebuilt, was David’s throne in the first Temple? Was there a throne in the Temple?

Not from what I’ve seen in scripture. If you can show me from scripture that King David had a throne in the temple I’ll admit I’m in error.

I’ll wait patiently.

Peace to you

Matthew 25:31 does not say Jesus has been sitting on a throne in heaven.

Read this again:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations."

People don't just walk into heaven and ask to be judged. They will stand before the throne in Jerusalem, and be judged. They will either be redeemed and sent to wait on the sea of glass. Or they will be tossed into the LOF. No one judged in Matthew 25 enters Paradise.

 

[timtofly]

I'm guessing you've totally missed the gist of Luke 17:23-24. Christ is telling them that 'in His day' [THAT BEING TODAY], He won't be 'in the desert' or in a 'secret chamber' or in Jerusalem or any other particular location on earth, He will be EVERYWHERE (as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west):

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11

And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8.11-12

Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4

22 And no man putteth new wine into old wineskins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine perisheth, and the skins: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins. Mark 2

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10

...etc....

Well?

That is a long list of accomplishments.

However those in Adam's dead corruptible flesh, have to stand in judgment first, before a remnant can enjoy their new God given permanent incorruptible physical body, and enjoy all those promises.

You don't think people will get to keep enjoying sin do you?

 

[canadyjd]

Matthew 25:31 does not say Jesus has been sitting on a throne in heaven.

Read this again:

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations."

People don't just walk into heaven and ask to be judged. They will stand before the throne in Jerusalem, and be judged. They will either be redeemed and sent to wait on the sea of glass. Or they will be tossed into the LOF. No one judged in Matthew 25 enters Paradise.

I disagree. The “Throne of Glory” is in Heaven. Jesus had states in Matthew 25 that He shall come in the air, the Trumpets shall sound, the angels shall gather His elect and immediately follows the great Throne judgment. That is in Heaven

The passage you quoted says nothing of a throne upon the earth, nor is Jerusalem mentioned.

peace to you