Issue of Tithing.

[Shell]

I know the bible states to give 10% of what you earn to God- what happens when you are in a situation that is beyond your control and you can only give some but not the whole 10 %.

 

[Aaron]

My advice is, if you're in debt, don't tithe. One cannot serve God and money.

 

[MRCoon]

If we can't afford to give God what is His then we can't expect God to give us what is not ours - His blessings.

I think that God will only bless us after we give what He says is His already. I have often be in situations where I thought I could not afford to give even 10% but when I don't I'm right I can't afford anything but when I do give it first before paying anything else I'm amazed at how much I can afford it.

 

[bubba jimmy]

There are many provisions in the law that people could not live up to. Where is it restated in the NT that 10% is required? Sometimes ought we not go beyond the 10% if there is a need and we are able?

I've even heard pastors who preach against legalism state that Christians are required to give 10%. I don't see it Biblically. It is incorrect to say the 10% is God's. 100% of everything is God's.

 

[Frenchy]

I think that God will only bless us after we give what He says is His already.

God's blessings are not always determined by how good we are. God is good no matter what and his goodness isn't based on ours. the bible speaks more of receiving SPIRITUAL blessings than material ones.

Too many Americans put so much into materalism and money. i am always amazed how many christians are so worried that if they don't tithe God will not bless them, but do they think about serving him, witnessing for him, and giving way and above a tithe? if tithing in order to appease God is the only reason you tithe then you got it all wrong. serve God and honor God in all that you do, no matter what it is, then tithing and paying bills will come easier than you think.

 

[gtbuzzarp]

Originally posted by Aaron:
My advice is, if you're in debt, don't tithe. One cannot serve God and money.

That's the single worst piece of advice I've think I've read on the BB. And is contrary to what many a pastor and christian financial gurus advise. We are merely stewards of God's money, none of it is ours. "The earth is the LORD'S, and all it contains,The world, and those who dwell in it." Psalm 24:1

Psalm 50:10-14
10 "For every beast of the forest is Mine,
The cattle on a thousand hills.
11"I know every bird of the mountains,
And everything that moves in the field is Mine.
12"If I were hungry I would not tell you,
For the world is Mine, and all it contains.
13"Shall I eat the flesh of bulls
Or drink the blood of male goats?
14"Offer to God a sacrifice of thanksgiving
And pay your vows to the Most High;

It's all God's. And Jesus told us not to worry about all that stuff (see Matthew 6:25-34). Here is verse 30:
30"But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which is alive today and tomorrow is thrown into the furnace, will He not much more clothe you? You of little faith!

And Jesus didn't abolish the tithe. Look at what he told the Pharisees:

Matthew 23:23
" Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

And for those who are scrapped for cash, consider this:

Mark 12
The Widow's Mite
41 And He sat down opposite the treasury, and began observing how the people were putting money into the treasury; and many rich people were putting in large sums. 42 A poor widow came and put in two small copper coins, which amount to a cent. 43 Calling His disciples to Him, He said to them, "Truly I say to you, this poor widow put in more than all the contributors to the treasury; 44for they all put in out of their surplus, but she, out of her poverty, put in all she owned, all she had to live on."

If we cannot be trusted with a simple tithe, then why should God trust us for greater things?
I think this passage is applicable here:

Luke 16
10"He who is faithful in a very little thing is faithful also in much; and he who is unrighteous in a very little thing is unrighteous also in much.

11"Therefore if you have not been faithful in the use of unrighteous wealth, who will entrust the true riches to you?

12"And if you have not been faithful in the use of that which is another's, who will give you that which is your own?

When things are tight, it is our natural inclnation to stop tithing because that is something easy to do to get a little bit more money. But what is that saying? It is saying that we don't trust God to provide for us like He said He would/will. It takes our focus off of Him and onto our money or situation. Tithing, especially when times are tough, helps us focus back on God. I can testify to that personally!

There are no good reasons that anyone can give not to tithe. All of them or self-centered, not God centered. To used the tired cliche, "the proof is in the pudding."

I posted this in the other tithing topic and I think it bears repeating (based on research by the Barna Group):

Although generosity, stewardship and tithing are higher profile issues among born again Christians than to other people, relatively few born again adults – only 9% – tithed to churches in 2004. That behavior was most common among evangelicals (23%), and much smaller among non-evangelical born again Christians (7%), notional Christians (less than 1%), people of other faiths (1%) and atheists and agnostics (none). Overall, 7% of Protestants tithed to churches – divided into 5% among people associated with mainline churches and 8% of those affiliated with other Protestant congregations. Tracking data show that tithing among all born again adults (i.e., evangelical and non-evangelical, combined) has stayed within a range of 6% to 14% throughout the past decade, varying by a few percentage points since 1999.

Personally I think we should give more than 10%. But it is a good starting place. If you are asking the question do I give out of net or gross income, when is it ok to give less, etc, then you are already focused on the wrong things. I made this comment on another tithing topic, and I will amend it slightly. Most people that have issues with the tithe are probably not tithing anyway. That has been my experience, especially among those who have and "abundance". I will give the caveat that there may be some who simply have been taught improperly as well.

I think if you look at how much debt most people are in and compare that to how many Christians actually tithe, then you can determine where the hearts of most are.

This will probably be my only post here, since this topic has bene thoroughly debated elsewhere on the BB.

 

[MRCoon]

I think that God expects the tithe [ Tithe = 1. A tenth part 2. A very small part ] as a minimum. But he definitely doesn't mind working with any of our gifts above and beyond. The Lord has blessed me and as such I'm able to give above and beyond the tithe.

By the way, show me where the tithe is removed from the NT Christian? Yes everything belongs to God and He wants us to give Him everything, but he also says that the tithe is His and to not give it to him is on par with theft IMO. Anything given above what already belongs to God is just further showing of our hearts and God's blessings in our life.

PS. And yes I'm one of those who feel that the tithe is not just money but time as well....so what do you do with God's 17 hrs a week?

 

[Ron Arndt]

Tithing was and is an OLD TESTAMENT ordinance required for the people of Israel UNDER THE LAW. Are you as a Christian under the Law of Moses? Not hardly. Preachers have used the Malachi scriptures in their churches to reap money from it's members for decades and there is no justification at all for this. The Christian is not commanded to give 10% of their money to the church at all. When one does so using these old testament passages as "proof texts" one places themselves under the Law and have fallen from grace.

In reality. the children of Israel were to not only bring 10% of their money to the priests, but OF THEIR CROPS and THEIR LIVESTOCK as well. Maybe the next time your preacher starts dictating to you about tithing, you should bring one of your horses, a cow and some bailed hay and some field corn into the church. What would he say then?

 

[Andy T.]

Ron, doesn't the principle of tithing pre-date the Law of Moses, as in the account of Abraham giving a tenth of all that he had?

And your flippant remark of bringing in livestock to your pastor is just silly. In an agrarian society, that was their currency. In our society, the currency is money.

Ultimately, I think the NT emphasizes giving (of all that we have - time, talents, wealth). But 10% is a good place to start for most people when it comes to financial giving. So in that regard, tithing (as a principle) is still valuable to the church today.

 

[Ransom]

Shell said:

I know the bible states to give 10% of what you earn to God

Actually, it doesn't.

The Levites, whose designated "trade" was the service of God in the tabernacle and temple, were granted a tenth of the produce from the other tribes. This was in lieu of a land inheritance, as they were the only tribe that was not given a parcel of land (apart from a few cities to live in).

Effectively, the tenth was a tax - a subsidy to support the priests and Levites and the work of God.

Although the New Testament says that it is the right of a pastor to make his living by shepherding the Church (and hence it is implicit that some system must be needed to collect his salary), there is no correlation between the priestly system of the Old Covenant and the Church of the New Covenant. The most detailed teaching Paul gives on the subject of giving (2 Cor. 9) actually deals with taking up a charitable offering for the poor brethren in Jerusalem, and Paul's intent is to equalize wealth.

 

[Ron Arndt]

Andy

When you obey any command that was given under the Law, you have fallen from grace.No where in the New Testament is the church commanded to tithe. No more than they are commanded to observe the Sabbath commanded to Israel. All these commands were of THE LAW.

It is true that before the Law was given certain ones gave tithes to God such as Melchisedec. But this was a practice he was taught. The Christian church is not taught these things under the new covenant. We do not keep new moons, Sabbaths and follow tithes. For we are under a NEW covenant.

Now if you can show me where it is commanded in the new covenant to give ten percent to my minister or church I will do so. But there is NO SUCH commandment. When you command people to do so Andy, you are trying to put them under the Law and not under grace.Shame on you.

 

[Andy T.]

Ron,

I never said tithing was a command. Shame on you for lieing.

 

[MRCoon]

I want to be shown where it says we are not to follow the guidelines as set in the OT or The Law. I understand that we are not under the judgement of the law but that doesn't free me from following the practices of the law. My 'sabbath' (one day set aside specifically for the Lord) just happens to be Sunday instead of Friday to Saturday. My 'offerings' to the Lord (Missions, building fund, etc.) happen to be my 'sacrifices' to show my obedience/dedication to following him. My 'tithes' are still the same to support the basic functioning of the ministry from the salaries to the operating costs of the building and property. My giving of gifts above the tithe is to allow from more gorwth and outreach beyond the operating expenses. Show me where I don't have to follow the law's guidelines...?

 

[Ransom]

I want to be shown where it says we are not to follow the guidelines as set in the OT or The Law.

Both Paul and James said that to follow one command of the Law was to bind yourself to the whole Law (Gal. 5:3; Jas. 2:10).

How much more would this apply to one specific set of laws? If you keep the Old Testament tithe, part of the Law pertaining to Old Covenant worship, then you bind yourself to whole system of animal sacrifices and everything else that regulated the worship of the Hebrews. As Paul would say, you have fallen from grace.

(Of course, in your case you have simply redefined the Law to your own preferences: the Sabbath is no longer the 7th day, your "sacrifices" become monetary offerings, and so forth.)

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Aaron:
My advice is, if you're in debt, don't tithe. One cannot serve God and money.

I disagree, and so to many financial professionals, such as Suze Orman. In fact, Suze Orman has said many times that budgeting charitable contributions, especially if that person is in debt, changes a person's attitude from the money having control over you to you having control over your money. That results in the person being freed from debt sooner.

 

[MRCoon]

Originally posted by Ransom:
I want to be shown where it says we are not to follow the guidelines as set in the OT or The Law.

Both Paul and James said that to follow one command of the Law was to bind yourself to the whole Law (Gal. 5:3; Jas. 2:10).

Please re-read these passages and you'll see that they talk of judgement under the law and the attitude of the early (Jew) Christians who sought justification by keeping the law...neither of which I was implying. I said we are not judged under or by the law but we are held to the standard of conduct of the law. It becomes our testimony and should be our practice...how honorable to obey the guidelines of the law...not as those who are under the law but those who want to live righteous and victorious Christian lives.

But I asked to be shown where we're released from obeying the law. Since I think we understand the law differently...it is interesting to see why so many Christian fight for the 10 Commandments in the Courthouse or wherever...hmmm??

Originally posted by Ransom:
How much more would this apply to one specific set of laws? If you keep the Old Testament tithe, part of the Law pertaining to Old Covenant worship, then you bind yourself to whole system of animal sacrifices and everything else that regulated the worship of the Hebrews. As Paul would say, you have fallen from grace.

(Of course, in your case you have simply redefined the Law to your own preferences: the Sabbath is no longer the 7th day, your "sacrifices" become monetary offerings, and so forth.)

I think it is Jesus who redefined the law for us. He showed us the the Sabbath was not a "Holy" day for the sake of ritual but a day set aside for the Lord and his work. He showed us that giving had to be from the heart and not from the wealth of the giver. He showed us that to be wrapped up in things for ritual sake made us hypocrites.

But if the tithe is not our example of supporting the Church then it must be the 'selling of all their goods' we see in Acts that the NT Churches practiced. We also see nothing that says they worshipped on Sunday or Wednesday or Thursday yet it has become our 'ritual'.

Just because I understand that I'm free from the judgement of the law doesn't mean that the law is to be ignored. If I read my Bible and understand it to be a guideline and I strive to obey the principles (if not the specific practices) of the law then why do you say that this is bad? As a Christian I'm not under the law for my salvation but I think I'm judged according to it's principles for my deeds. How is a Christian to act if there are no guidelines?

If you throw out my OT you need to throw out my NT as well.

 

[Ransom]

I said we are not judged under or by the law but we are held to the standard of conduct of the law.

Are there any other word games you would like to play today? It's still daylight.

 

[MRCoon]

Originally posted by Ransom:
I said we are not judged under or by the law but we are held to the standard of conduct of the law.

Are there any other word games you would like to play today? It's still daylight.

No word game i've said that same thing in both posts. I believe it's our attitude towards the law not a trust in it.

But that's not your answer to my long rebuttal is it?...disappointing.

By the way, it is 4:30 am here in Japan no daylight yet and I'm off work in a couple of hours (AMEN!).

 

[Ransom]

But that's not your answer to my long rebuttal is it?...disappointing.

Yeah, as a matter of fact it is. Sorry.

 

[izzaksdad]

MRCoon,

You will not convince these guys on the biblical principle of tithing. There are those on this board that like the "itching ear" approach rather than the "preach the word" approach when it comes to matters of obedience such as tithing. The old "under law" "under grace" straw man soothes the conscience on this matter it appears . You spoke a solid word though.