Issue of Tithing.

[MRCoon]

Originally posted by izzaksdad:
MRCoon,

You will not convince these guys on the biblical principle of tithing. There are those on this board that like the "itching ear" approach rather than the "preach the word" approach when it comes to matters of obedience such as tithing. The old "under law" "under grace" straw man soothes the conscience on this matter it appears . You spoke a solid word though.

Thank you and if I could get someone to scratch my back instead of my ear...it would be more profitable and enjoyable for me

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I am not going to say tithing should not be practiced, but I will say that you cannot find tithing practiced in the New Testament passages. The closest to tithing one can get is found in

1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

That does not necessarily imply tithing, although tithing can be included in it.

In Acts 5, we see the story of Ananias and Sapphira. They sold a parcel of land and were supposed to bring in the whole amount to the church that monies would be given to those in need. They held back part of that money.

It was not a tenth that they were to bring in, but to bring in all of the money from the sale.

Apparently, during this era, the church governed much in money matters concerning the needs of the poor.

 

[Ransom]

izzaksdad said:

You will not convince these guys on the biblical principle of tithing.

Oh, I have no problem with the tithe being a biblical principle. I just deny it's a principle that applies to the New Covenant, since we do not live in a theocracy and our income taxes do not go to the state religion.

 

[AresMan]

Originally posted by Ransom:
Oh, I have no problem with the tithe being a biblical principle. I just deny it's a principle that applies to the New Covenant, since we do not live in a theocracy and our income taxes do not go to the state religion.

Yes, the tithe law was an agricultural tax to finance the Levites (which included the priests) because they had no inheritance in the land. There is no mention any where in the Scripture, Old or New Testaments, of anyone tithing money and this was not because it was an "agrarian culture". The tithe was of the herd (oxen, sheep, etc.) and of the crops.

What this means is that those involved in other trades such as tayloring did not tithe of their produce. Only Levites were allowed to take tithes. They also had to tithe of the tithes that they received. (Neh 10:29-39)

It is true that Abraham tithed of the spoils of war to Melchizedek, which predated the Law. Do we know if Abraham ever persisted to tithe to anyone? Did he ever tithe of his own earnings?

Also, read Deuteronomy 14:22-29. The people were commanded to eat their own tithe. The tithe was a gathering celebration of praise to God. They shared with the Levites, fatherless, widows, and strangers within their gates. They were even allowed to drink strong drink during the "feast of tithes". Note that money is mentioned, but it was a medium of conversion for the convenience of travel. The real tithe was food. If we were commanded to tithe according to the Law we should be feasting of the tithe together (including eating our own tithe) and sharing it with those around us. The tithe was not exclusive to the Levites.

If we should obey the Mosaic Law concerning its tithe command (which the modern church "tithe" mandate has absolutely nothing in common with how it was practiced in the Bible except for the 10% figure), then we should all not eat pork, or shimp, or other animals deemed unclean by the Law. This is mentioned immediately preceding the tithe law in Deuteronomy 14. We should also be releasing all debts every seven years. This is in Deuteronomy 15. Why, oh, why do we like to cherry pick certain laws from the Old Testament, change them into something they never were, and enforce them, yet ignore other laws that made just as much sense and were just as important at the time?

And once again, I am in favor of cheerful giving and in giving more than 10% of one's income whenever possible. I see nothing wrong with anyone practicing a 10% scheme today. What is wrong is to say that such a twisting of the Law is somehow required or otherwise to make one feel guilty or less right with God for not following such a standard. That is what is wrong.

Originally posted by standingfirminChrist:
I am not going to say tithing should not be practiced, but I will say that you cannot find tithing practiced in the New Testament passages. The closest to tithing one can get is found in

1 Corinthians 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

That does not necessarily imply tithing, although tithing can be included in it.

In Acts 5, we see the story of Ananias and Sapphira. They sold a parcel of land and were supposed to bring in the whole amount to the church that monies would be given to those in need. They held back part of that money.

It was not a tenth that they were to bring in, but to bring in all of the money from the sale.

Apparently, during this era, the church governed much in money matters concerning the needs of the poor.

I will always give a heart "Amen" to any preacher who has the courage to go against the mainstream preachers who don't question the alleged New Testament "command" to "tithe".

BTW, Annanias and Sapphira were not required to give anything. What happened was that they said that they gave the full price of the land when they really didn't. They lied to the Holy Ghost.

 

[samarelda]

I think the tithe should be given first no matter what financial situation you may find yourself in. If you wait and give to God when you can afford it, it will never happen. The first fruits belong to God--always! I will say though that it is a step and act of faith and not always easy to do.

 

[mima]

"I think that God will only bless us after we give what He says is His already." If the preceding statement is true it would appear that God's blessings are up for border or trade!

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Folks....Tithing is of the law...GIVING is of Faith....and THAT IS preaching "the Word" and has nothing to do with an "itching ear".According to the Word of God,"whatsoever is not of faith is sin."The law was given to us to be a schoolmaster to show us our sin.Under the New Covenant(grace) we are to give cheerfully(2 Cor.9:6-7)by faith "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart,...." There is no mention in the New Testament(for the New Testament Church IN CONTEXT)of tithing....ONLY GIVING.At this point in my life(and I used to believe STRONGLY in "tithing")it has been proven to me repeatedly that New Testament GIVING is to be practiced by FAITH with regard to the fact that we are to be faithful STEWARDS of all that God provides us with because 100% of EVERYTHING we have is HIS.The ONLY way you can teach "tithing" to a New Testament Christian OR Church is to COMPLETELY wrest what the Word of God says about that practice from the CONTEXT in which it appears EVERYWHERE in the Holy Bible.Tithing was for the nation of Israel ONLY and was instituted to support the Levitical priesthood.It is NOT for the New Testament Church.The problem is....most people,preachers,and churches know so very little about what living and operating by FAITH really means.Ok...I'm done...for the moment.I just get a bit stirred up about this because I've heard so many preachers BEAT their people over the head with this Malachi 3 notion that they are robbing God.Remember.....CONTEXT,CONTEXT,CONTEXT.....one of the prime rules of scripture interpretation.

My best advise...GIVE....and be generous about it....it ALL belongs to God anyway.

Blessings,Greg Sr.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

By the way MRCoon,my son and daughter-in-law are both in the Marine Corp currently stationed at Camp Pendleton....God bless you(whether you tithe or not)and thank you for your service to our Lord and our nation.Semper Fi

Greg Sr.

 

[MRCoon]

I thank you sir for those kind words and Semper Fi to you and your family as well.

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by gtbuzzarp:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aaron:
My advice is, if you're in debt, don't tithe. One cannot serve God and money.

That's the single worst piece of advice I've think I've read on the BB. And is contrary to what many a pastor and christian financial gurus advise.</font>[/QUOTE]And yet, it's eminently Scriptural.

 

[PastorSBC1303]

*sigh* I am not sure why I am doing this, but here goes...

Aaron, would you mind showing how your advice about being in debt and not tithing is Scriptural?

Does that mean anyone with any debt should not give to the church? Technically anyone with a home mortgage or car loan is in "debt", are they not supposed to give to the local church?

 

[gtbuzzarp]

Originally posted by Aaron:
And yet, it's eminently Scriptural.

I just love ad hominem assertions!

Here's an excerpt from R.C. Sproul's view of tithing: LINK
(and here's a link on why John Piper says we should tithe John Piper on Tithing )


Some object right away with an age-old protest, "But tithing is an Old Testament law and we don't live in the Old Testament." To be sure the mandate of the tithe was instituted in the Old Testament. But to use that fact as an excuse for negating its weight for the New Testament era is to fly in the face of everything the New Testament teaches about our involvement in the New Covenant. When the two covenants are compared the point is made emphatically that the covenant benefits enjoyed by the Christian far exceed the benefits conferred upon Old Testament saints. With the greater benefit comes greater, not lesser, responsibility. The tithe is an act of response to God's goodness. If the rank and file under the old structure were required to tithe, it is an insult to grace to assume that some level of gratitude would now be an ideal attainable only by a spiritual elite. The New Testament principle could be translated as saying not "take a step toward tithing," but rather "take a step from tithing." That-is, the tithe becomes a point of departure, a starting base for New Testament stewardship. It represents the minimum response of a grateful soul, a response that is-to be made cheerfully.

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
Aaron, would you mind showing how your advice about being in debt and not tithing is Scriptural?

You won't find any, PastorSBC. Aaron's assertion is not only absent in scripture, it's absent in all aspects of common sense and financial responsibility.

I reiterate what I posted earlier. Most financial professionals encourage those in debt to budget part of their income to charity. Suze Orman has said many times that budgeting charitable contributions, especially if that person is in debt, changes a person's attitude from the money having control over you to you having control over your money. That results in the person being freed from debt sooner.

If having debt scripturally disqualifies one from tithing, then I must be hellbound, because I've had a mortage debt for about 5 years, and in those same 5 years, my level of tithes and offerings have been the highest they've ever been in my life.

 

[Shell]

Thanks to everyone for the feedback.

I will do my best to see that God will get his tenth/10%. I have reached a rough area financially and know it will take some time. If anyone want to talk more on this with me. Please email/IM me privately. I do feel horrible about not being able to tithe as required.

Thanks.

 

[rbell]

God's best to you, Shell...seek Him, and He'll guide you. I sincerely hope your situation improves.

 

[AresMan]

Originally posted by Shell:
Thanks to everyone for the feedback.

I will do my best to see that God will get his tenth/10%. I have reached a rough area financially and know it will take some time. If anyone want to talk more on this with me. Please email/IM me privately. I do feel horrible about not being able to tithe as required.

Thanks.

Please, everyone. Think about this statement and what it implies. Would this not hinder cheerful giving?

2 Cor 9:6-8:
6 But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work

This is the New Testament principle of cheerful giving:
1. you give what you purpose in your heart
2. you do not give grudgingly or of necessity
3. you give whatever you can cheerfully
4. God loves a cheerful giver (no amount specified)
5. if you give generously and cheerfully, God will meet your needs

There is no "tithe" requirement for the church. To prove a "tithe" requirement one would have to reconcile many different aspects (preferably with Scripture):
1. Levites and their priests become church ministers
2. the tithe of the yearly increase of crops and livestock becomes a tithe of monetary income (and does "firstfruits" mean net or gross?)
3. the Temple storehouse becomes the church building (there is no indication in the New Testament of standard church buildings at all--believers met in each others' homes), "meat" becomes "money", etc.
4. all the references to Judah, Jerusalem, Israel, Levites, priests, the nation, the people, etc. all have some kind of correlation to similar models in the church exhibited by the early church in Scripture or at least a justifiable decomposition
5. the one-time act of Abraham predating the Law somehow indicates a persistent requirement for the church believers
6. all the bells and whistles of the tithe laws, such as the yearly feast, the third-year gate-laying, the redeeming tithes by paying 120% of its worth, etc. somehow have a correlation in the church, or magically no longer apply
7. since the Levites had to tithe on tithes, their church successors must do the same
8. all the laws found within the immediate context of the tithe laws must also apply today (unless of course they can be "modernized" just like the tithe law), such as not eating pork, shrimp, etc. and releasing debts every seven years
9. what exactly is titheable and how old does one have to be to be required to tithe of "income"? Can a five-year-old be given a $1.00 candy bar as a gift and be required to rip off one-tenth of it and stick it in the offering plate? What if the child was given a dollar bill instead with which to buy a candy bar? Does this make it different so that now the child must break the dollar and give ten cents away and then not be able to buy a $1.00 candy bar? What about things other than money such as time and talents?

It's really sad that a Christian believer who has a desire to serve God cheerfully should be made to feel guily for not following a modernized mandate that is a twisting of certain passages of Scripture, taken out of context, misapplied, and "modernized" into something that bares no resemblance to its incarnation in Scripture other than the statistic of a tenth of something.

Shell, if you are still reading this thread, do not feel guilty about not obeying this modern myth. You will not be cursed by God for not writing a calculated check and sticking it in a plate. God rewards those who give cheerfully. I suggest you do some research on tithing from the Bible and online. Search for and read all passages where there is any mention of tithing. Read and study the tithe laws and all that is included with them. Ask God to guide you as you seek to learn the truth.

With all this said, once again, I would like everyone to know that I am in no way discouraging anyone from giving. I am not even discouraging those who have committed to faithfully giving 10% of their incomes to their church. What I am discouraging is the modern idea that giving 10% of one's financial income to a church is somehow required or even otherwise guaranteeing of special blessings from God. The whole matter is to give what you are able and to give it cheerfully, and I dare say that for most people this can be well over a mere 10%.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Bravo AresMan...that was a very balanced viewpoint that I wish more people had.It seems though that the tithing proponents never can argue their point with respect to the biblical CONTEXT of what the bible teaches about the matter.The modern day tither/lawkeepers all seem to depend on peoples guilty consciences to keep their spurious teaching alive.Make'em feel guilty enough and they'll give out of fear of some divine consequence! That's the ticket!Faith!??? why whatever do you mean...we can't have that...we have a budget to keep!!!!! Sorry for the sarcasm...I'm just tired of hearing preachers and radio teachers beating people up mentally by accusing them of being God-robbers.When they can prove that they are Levites,and that the New Testament Church of the Lord Jesus Christ is(1)A BUILDING of ANY description (2)and that building is EQUAL SCRIPTURALLY with the Old Testament STOREHOUSE the MAYBE....just maybe we might be able to justify a "tithe" TODAY. Until then,I'll just keep on being a CHEERFUL GIVER between Me and the Lord.God Bless Ya'll.Give as the Lord gives you peace.Not as the preacher (any preacher) demands!

Greg Sr.

 

[CompassionateConservative]

Originally posted by MRCoon:
If we can't afford to give God what is His then we can't expect God to give us what is not ours - His blessings.

I apologize, but I simply do not follow this line of reasoning. I think it is far more complex than you state. For instance, 1) What reasons lie behind the person's inability to tithe? 2) Is it right for us to expect God to give us what is not ours in the sense that you apparently mean above?

In other words, do you tithe to force God's hand to bless you, or would you give obediently to God regardless?

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by PastorSBC1303:
Aaron, would you mind showing how your advice about being in debt and not tithing is Scriptural?

Certainly...

A universal, non-optional principle stated in Proverbs is that the the borrower is the servant of the lender, 22:7.

Another universal, non-optional principle is that one cannot serve God and money. You will love one and hate the other.

This is why Paul stated that we should owe no man anything, Rom. 13:8.

Technically anyone with a home mortgage or car loan is in "debt", are they not supposed to give to the local church?

Certainly those who are deeply in debt should not give to the church.

I've heard it argued that if one is not upside down in his house or car, he's not really in debt. I'm not sure exactly how far that goes. George Muller in his autobiography stated that he would not accept donations from people he knew were "deeply" in debt, and that not out of mercy to them either. It was because he knew that the money was first the creditor's. I assume if folks struggle to turn loose 10% to God, they must be deep in debt, even if they're not upside down in their houses.

God would have them pay off their creditors to free themselves to serve Him, and not overspend in the future. If they have to, they should divest themselves of the new houses and new cars, and work two jobs to pay off their debts. Good hard work is the best remedy for those who tend to be irresponsible with their money.

 

[AresMan]

Good hard work is the best remedy for those who tend to be irresponsible with their money.

And of course, a little healthy God-fearing respect for the plastic could help out too. Instead of putting yourself in debt to buy a new car and a new house, save up for those things and live off things that just work in the mean time. You'll save yourself 20%+ in interest charges.

Certainly those who are deeply in debt should not give to the church.

Of course, if we realize that this so-called church "tithe" "command" is actually a modern "fundamentalist" myth, the problem is virtually eliminated. Certainly anyone can give something to the church (including others in need).