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Issue of Tithing.
- Thread starter Shell
- Start date
Gregory Perry Sr.
Active Member
I just love this kind of discussion....so I think I'll *bump* it up and keep it alive !!!!
Greg Sr.
Greg Sr.
jshurley04
New Member
I can totally understand his situation. In the past when I have been unable to tithe fully or even trust that my own ability to balance a check book was right or not, I have taken part of my check when cashed and set aside cash in a tithe envelope. Was it what I believed I should give? NO, but it was something with allowed me to be joyful in knowing that God would honor the effort and eventually over a few months things would level off and we would be back to giving what we believed God wanted us to give all along. The point is, debt or no debt, the principle remains the same. Part of Worship is giving to what you worship in all areas of time, talent and money. The time and talent can be constant and should be, but I believe that the money part can have a flexibility to it provided it is always addressed through some amount of giving.
Tithing in Biblical context was a tenth of the increase of one's yearly harvest to be eaten and shared with the Levites, the fatherless, the widows, and the strangers within one's gates, and laid outside the gates every three years, which were later gathered into the Temple storehouse instituted by Hezekiah. (Lev 27:30-33; Num 18:21-32; Deut 12:11-21, 14:22-29, 26:10-19; 2 Chr 31:4-21; Neh 10:34-39, 12:44, 13:5-12; Amos 4:4)
Offerings were almost always things burned on an altar, and were mostly performed by priests (Gen 8:20, 22:2-13, 35:14; Exo 10:25, 18:12, 20:24, 22:29-31, 23:18-19, 24:5, 29:1-46, 30:9-10, 30:28, 31:9, 32:5-6, 34:25, 35:16, 38:1, 40:6, 40:29, ... [too many to mention] ... Mal 1:7-14, 2:12-13; Matt 5:23-24, 8:4; Mark 1:44, 12:33; Luke 2:24, 5:14; Acts 21:26; Eph 5:2; Heb 5:1-3, 7:26-28, 8:3-4, 9:25, 10:5-19, 13:10-15; I Pet 2:5; Rev 8:3)
Gifts are anything that is given. (I Cor 16:1-3; II Cor 8:1-4, 9:5-15; Phil 4:15-19)
When reading certain passages such as Malachi 3:8-10 it helps to have terms properly defined so we know who it applies to and what it is about. It really would be great if we could use these terms correctly so that we don't misinterpret passages. The New Testament command is to give cheerfully, and many passages get confused when we misinterpret "tithes" and "offerings".
Offerings were almost always things burned on an altar, and were mostly performed by priests (Gen 8:20, 22:2-13, 35:14; Exo 10:25, 18:12, 20:24, 22:29-31, 23:18-19, 24:5, 29:1-46, 30:9-10, 30:28, 31:9, 32:5-6, 34:25, 35:16, 38:1, 40:6, 40:29, ... [too many to mention] ... Mal 1:7-14, 2:12-13; Matt 5:23-24, 8:4; Mark 1:44, 12:33; Luke 2:24, 5:14; Acts 21:26; Eph 5:2; Heb 5:1-3, 7:26-28, 8:3-4, 9:25, 10:5-19, 13:10-15; I Pet 2:5; Rev 8:3)
Gifts are anything that is given. (I Cor 16:1-3; II Cor 8:1-4, 9:5-15; Phil 4:15-19)
When reading certain passages such as Malachi 3:8-10 it helps to have terms properly defined so we know who it applies to and what it is about. It really would be great if we could use these terms correctly so that we don't misinterpret passages. The New Testament command is to give cheerfully, and many passages get confused when we misinterpret "tithes" and "offerings".
Brother Bob
New Member
I agree with Ramsom, actually God doesn't say give 10% but the NT says "freely you have received and freely you give" talking to the Apostles. A Church must have funds to exist because we are not of the world but we are certainly in it and it costs heavy to exit as a Church.
Nicholas25
New Member
What do you think about Matthew 23:23 as it applies to the issue of tithing?
I do not believe that ANYONE- including the self appointed theologians on the BB who have “searched this out for themselves”- can soundly argue against the fact that in the Old Testament, the tithes were used to sustain the work of God (providing for the priests, needs for the Tabernacle or Temple, etc.).
Nehemiah 12:44- "And at that time were some appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the firstfruits, and for THE TITHES, to gather into them out of the fields of the cities THE PORTIONS OF THE LAW FOR THE PRIESTS AND LEVITES: for Judah rejoiced for the priests and for the Levites that waited."
Nehemiah 13:5- "And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, AND THE TITHES of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded TO BE GIVEN TO THE LEVITES, AND THE SINGERS, AND THE PORTERS; and the offerings of the priests."
Malachi 3:8-10- "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? IN TITHES and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. BRING YE ALL THE TITHES INTO THE STOREHOUSE, THAT THERE MAY BE MEAT IN MINE HOUSE, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."
As you study the NT, you will find that the Holy Spirit applied this same rule to sustaining the work of the church and its pastor(s).
I Timothy 5:17-18 (Pastoral Epistle) - "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, ESPECIALLY THEY WHO LABOUR IN WORD AND DOCTRINE. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."
Obviously, “the scripture” that “saith” is from the Old Testament, and it applied to the care of New Testament church leaders. Those who labor in the Word and doctrine (the pastor), is also worthy to be supported from the money brought into the house of God. Concluding that that principle operated on tithes in the Old Testament, why would that same basis not apply in the New Testament — that God’s people be faithful in tithing? (See Jesus’ commendation of the Pharisees for being faithful to the tithe- as they should have been- but his condemnation for their lacking in other spiritual disciplines- Mt. 23)
I Corinthians 9:6-14- "Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or SAITH NOT THE LAW THE SAME ALSO? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or SAITH HE IT ALTOGETHER FOR OUR SAKES? FOR OUR SAKES, NO DOUBT, THIS IS WRITTEN: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that THEY WHICH MINISTER ABOUT HOLY THINGS LIVE OF THE THINGS OF THE TEMPLE? AND THEY WHICH WAIT AT THE ALTAR ARE PARTAKERS WITH THE ALTAR? EVEN SO HATH THE LORD ORDAINED THAT THEY WHICH PREACH THE GOSPEL SHOULD LIVE OF THE GOSPEL."
- The Law taught the tithe, and it was given and used to support the ministers and their work. The New Testament takes that same principle and applies it to church leaders. I believe the Bible teaches the NT Christian to give tithes to support the local NT church.
The principle of tithing to support ministers goes back even before the Law was given to Moses: Genesis 14:18-20- "And MELCHIZEDEK king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and HE WAS PRIEST OF THE MOST HIGH GOD. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And HE GAVE HIM TITHES OF ALL."
Even before the Law was given to Moses, God’s people tithed to support the priests, as did Abraham to Melchizedek in the above passage. In the above passage, it may seem unclear who was giving who the tithes, but Hebrews 7:1-6 makes it clear that it was Abraham tithing to Melchizedek.
"For this MELCHISEDEC, king of Salem, PRIEST OF THE MOST HIGH GOD, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; TO WHOM ALSO ABRAHAM GAVE A TENTH PART OF ALL; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: But he whose descent is not counted from them RECEIVED TITHES OF ABRAHAM, and blessed him that had the promises."
The tithe is not just a principle of the Law given to Moses, but it is a principle that God’s people have practiced in every age, even BEFORE the Law. Furthermore, I am of the deep conviction that it would be nothing less than gross disobedience to do less under grace as a child of God, than what a person who lived under the law rigidly, obediently practiced.
As for the argument that the tithe in the OT was produce, livestock, etc., and not what we teach today, that is a specious argument at best. #1, currency changes with time. #2, many churches- especially during the Great Depression readily accepted these gifts as “tithes”. As a matter of fact, I would accept them today, and I think these tithes honor God just as those who are capable of giving the monetary tithe honor the Lord. #3, there are many churches that practice what we would call storehouse tithing. Our church has offerings ready to give away to those in genuine need. As a matter of fact, from the tithes and offerings we receive each week, we regularly give thousands away to help meet the needs of others.
Guys, you just can’t “preach it away”. Just be obedient, sacrifice, and give God His.
Nehemiah 12:44- "And at that time were some appointed over the chambers for the treasures, for the offerings, for the firstfruits, and for THE TITHES, to gather into them out of the fields of the cities THE PORTIONS OF THE LAW FOR THE PRIESTS AND LEVITES: for Judah rejoiced for the priests and for the Levites that waited."
Nehemiah 13:5- "And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, AND THE TITHES of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded TO BE GIVEN TO THE LEVITES, AND THE SINGERS, AND THE PORTERS; and the offerings of the priests."
Malachi 3:8-10- "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? IN TITHES and offerings. Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. BRING YE ALL THE TITHES INTO THE STOREHOUSE, THAT THERE MAY BE MEAT IN MINE HOUSE, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."
As you study the NT, you will find that the Holy Spirit applied this same rule to sustaining the work of the church and its pastor(s).
I Timothy 5:17-18 (Pastoral Epistle) - "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, ESPECIALLY THEY WHO LABOUR IN WORD AND DOCTRINE. For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward."
Obviously, “the scripture” that “saith” is from the Old Testament, and it applied to the care of New Testament church leaders. Those who labor in the Word and doctrine (the pastor), is also worthy to be supported from the money brought into the house of God. Concluding that that principle operated on tithes in the Old Testament, why would that same basis not apply in the New Testament — that God’s people be faithful in tithing? (See Jesus’ commendation of the Pharisees for being faithful to the tithe- as they should have been- but his condemnation for their lacking in other spiritual disciplines- Mt. 23)
I Corinthians 9:6-14- "Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or SAITH NOT THE LAW THE SAME ALSO? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or SAITH HE IT ALTOGETHER FOR OUR SAKES? FOR OUR SAKES, NO DOUBT, THIS IS WRITTEN: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that THEY WHICH MINISTER ABOUT HOLY THINGS LIVE OF THE THINGS OF THE TEMPLE? AND THEY WHICH WAIT AT THE ALTAR ARE PARTAKERS WITH THE ALTAR? EVEN SO HATH THE LORD ORDAINED THAT THEY WHICH PREACH THE GOSPEL SHOULD LIVE OF THE GOSPEL."
- The Law taught the tithe, and it was given and used to support the ministers and their work. The New Testament takes that same principle and applies it to church leaders. I believe the Bible teaches the NT Christian to give tithes to support the local NT church.
The principle of tithing to support ministers goes back even before the Law was given to Moses: Genesis 14:18-20- "And MELCHIZEDEK king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and HE WAS PRIEST OF THE MOST HIGH GOD. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And HE GAVE HIM TITHES OF ALL."
Even before the Law was given to Moses, God’s people tithed to support the priests, as did Abraham to Melchizedek in the above passage. In the above passage, it may seem unclear who was giving who the tithes, but Hebrews 7:1-6 makes it clear that it was Abraham tithing to Melchizedek.
"For this MELCHISEDEC, king of Salem, PRIEST OF THE MOST HIGH GOD, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him; TO WHOM ALSO ABRAHAM GAVE A TENTH PART OF ALL; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace; Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils. And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: But he whose descent is not counted from them RECEIVED TITHES OF ABRAHAM, and blessed him that had the promises."
The tithe is not just a principle of the Law given to Moses, but it is a principle that God’s people have practiced in every age, even BEFORE the Law. Furthermore, I am of the deep conviction that it would be nothing less than gross disobedience to do less under grace as a child of God, than what a person who lived under the law rigidly, obediently practiced.
As for the argument that the tithe in the OT was produce, livestock, etc., and not what we teach today, that is a specious argument at best. #1, currency changes with time. #2, many churches- especially during the Great Depression readily accepted these gifts as “tithes”. As a matter of fact, I would accept them today, and I think these tithes honor God just as those who are capable of giving the monetary tithe honor the Lord. #3, there are many churches that practice what we would call storehouse tithing. Our church has offerings ready to give away to those in genuine need. As a matter of fact, from the tithes and offerings we receive each week, we regularly give thousands away to help meet the needs of others.
Guys, you just can’t “preach it away”. Just be obedient, sacrifice, and give God His.
I am able to give at times, just not as much as I would like to give. I am in a situation that doesn't allow me to control my money as I would like.(I am working on the problem) I am becoming active in church in other aspects, but feel that is not always enough- I am very critical on myself on this aspect. I know I have to give all my concerns to God and look for his guidance.
Craigbythesea
Well-Known Member
I'm not Jewish, so the teachings in the Bible regarding tithing do not apply to me.
I apologize, but I simply do not follow this line of reasoning. I think it is far more complex than you state. For instance, 1) What reasons lie behind the person's inability to tithe? 2) Is it right for us to expect God to give us what is not ours in the sense that you apparently mean above?
In other words, do you tithe to force God's hand to bless you, or would you give obediently to God regardless? </font>[/QUOTE]Then let me clarify my little ditty. I meant (and thought it was obvious) but we want to enjoy God's Blessings in our lives, right? Then how can we if we are not giving to God? We can not! Does God hear us when we pray to Him if we have sin in our life? Not until we confess them and seek His forgiveness! Can our keeping things from God (I prefer the word "stealing") hinder our receiving blessings from God? A resounding...YES!!
Thus my little quip: If we can't afford to give God what is His then we can't expect God to give us what is not ours - His blessings. In regards to your question "about forcing God's hand" No I don't give to challenge God to or not to bless me (though that sounds funny indeed). I give because I think it belongs to God already and for me to hold on to it and not give God a portion of it is in essence robbing him. But God would not have any issue if I only gave to "test" him to bless me...Malachi 3:10 (KJV)
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
But thanks for allowing me to clarify myself and hopefully I've made it as clear as mud
No one argues with this. The tithe was used to support "the work of God" in the Old Testament under the theocratic nation of Israel. The Law also spells out why the Levites received tithes: because they had no inheritance in the land.
Notice the the priests, Levites, and Judah mentioned here.
There was actually no "storehouse" mentioned in the Law itself. Hezekiah utilized the chambers in the Temple to store the tithes out of convenience because they were cluttering up the streets.
If you read the whole of Malachi, you would notice that almost the entire book is addressed to the priests. It was the priests who performed the burnt offerings in the Temple. Chapters 1 and 2 show how they were robbing God in offerings. They were offering polluted bread and blind, sick, and blemished livestock for sacrifices.
I think you will find that the New Testament does not mention anything about tithing for the church. It mentions not muzzling the ox, counting the elders worthy of double honor, and cheerful giving not out of necessity.
What does this have to do with tithe? Did the people tithe to the oxen that they used to plow the fields? What this is saying is that those who devote their full time to laboring in word and doctrine should have their time compensated just like anyone else who works full time. Possibly some have taken this to mean that ministers should receive twice the paycheck that the average "layman" receives. However, this still has nothing to do with tithing.
I agree.
How can you conclude that this principle operated on tithes. That is an unsupported assumption.
What the Pharisees were doing was tithing even of things that were not necessary (mint, anise, and cummin). You know how scrupulous they were when it came to anything of outward appearance. Jesus commended them for doing this, yes (of course we all know that this is not the point of the passage, but so many people seem to make it so). These were Jewish Pharisees still performing their yearly tithes (above requirement?) in accordance with the tithe of the Mosaic Law for the nation of Israel (yet under Roman captivity).
This passage is the best support available for "church tithing". However, it states a comparative principle. It does not mention tithing. The principle is that if we expect a gospel minister to devote his full time to ministering, we cannot expect him to be deprived of sustenance that he could have received had he been a wage earner. Therefore, if we expect certain people to devote the same time that we devote to the work force, we need to take it upon ourselves to see that their needs are met. Plain and simple.
The tithe of the Law was God's agricultural tax (and welfare) system for the theocratic nation of Israel. Their government and religion were intertwined. I have asked Jews about whether they still tithe. They said that they largely don't because there is no active Levitical priesthood at this point. The church is not "the new Israel," it is "the church."--operated on the principle of cheerful giving.
Abraham gave tithes of the spoils of war to a priest. Hebrews chapter 7 explains this.
Agree.
The Levites paid tithes in Abraham to Melchizedek thus fulfilling the Law.
The "before" the Law still reflected the Law. You can have your deep conviction, but I say it is a stretch to draw a direct link from:
1. Levites to church staff
2. Temple chamber storehouse to church building
3. nation of Israel to disparate/local church
4. yearly tithe of harvest increase to tithe of paycheck, etc.
If in the Old Testament someone who was not a Levite attempted to assume the role of a Levite to collect tithes, he would be disobeying the Law. I would think it would be dangerous for someone today to try to assume the role of a Levite without the bloodline based on some hazy assumptions and treat it as a command.
I'll give you that. It's not the greatest argument, but it does seem strange that there is not one mention of tithing money anywhere in the Bible even when money was commonplace.
They had money when the tithe laws were given. It even played a part in the tithe law, but only as medium, not as the titheable commodity (Deu 14:24-26). Also, it was used if one didn't wish to give up the tithe (crops only; livestock was not redeemable because they were needed for sacrifices). One could redeem it by paying the cost of the crop tithe plus 20% (Lev 27:31-33).
They can call them whatever they want to call them. I'd call them "gifts" because that is what such things were called all throughout the New Testament.
Whatever system your church decides to practice that meets needs is good. Just be careful to not put a mandate where one does not exist. Also, one can practice the "storehouse" metaphor, but it doesn't necessarily have to be forced "tithes".
I am obedient (2 Cor. 9:7). I try to sacrifice and give in abundance (often exceeding 10%).
Originally posted by izzaksdad:
"The tithe is not just a principle of the Law given to Moses, but it is a principle that God’s people have practiced in every age, even BEFORE the Law. Furthermore, I am of the deep conviction that it would be nothing less than gross disobedience to do less under grace as a child of God, than what a person who lived under the law rigidly, obediently practiced."
Apparently you assume that people who realize tithing is not a N.T. requirement, would be giving less than 10%. In order to encourage tithing, many churches have led people to believe that the reason some don't believe in N.T.tithing is to avoid giving. Of course this is not true. But that wrong idea is reflected in your above "to do less under grace" statement.
"The tithe is not just a principle of the Law given to Moses, but it is a principle that God’s people have practiced in every age, even BEFORE the Law. Furthermore, I am of the deep conviction that it would be nothing less than gross disobedience to do less under grace as a child of God, than what a person who lived under the law rigidly, obediently practiced."
Apparently you assume that people who realize tithing is not a N.T. requirement, would be giving less than 10%. In order to encourage tithing, many churches have led people to believe that the reason some don't believe in N.T.tithing is to avoid giving. Of course this is not true. But that wrong idea is reflected in your above "to do less under grace" statement.
BTW, Dr. John MacArthur doesn't believe in the church tithing myth. I'm saying that proves anything, but just throwing some crackers into the pond.
jshurley04
New Member
Find a real question about tithing not about the teletheives that preach give to me to get rich. That is basically what he is answering in that article. I would dare say that if he answered the question of what we as Christians should give or tithe that he would state a figure far greater than 10%! As he pointed out, the N.T. Christians did not give by portion like the Pharasees or Saducees but they gave from the totality of themselves. They gave all, and he would probably say that that is the N.T. model, not 10%. However, that is just speculation on my part of what I think he would say.
He does argue that because Israel was a theocratic nation, the tithe was their national tax. We the church are not the "new Israel." We live disparately in our own nations. Our "tithe" is the tax that we are obligated to pay to our government. Any giving outside of that to the church would be closer to the "freewill offerings" in the Old Testament, which were never required.
So, when it comes to ministry giving, the idea is to give as much as you can give cheerfully using the generosity of the New Testament churches as your example. The implication is that you should give a lot if by all means possible to do so cheerfully, making sure to meet everyone's needs, but there is no borderline amount where God approves or disapproves.
Hey, church ministers often preach about "living by faith" to their "laity" (ugh!), they should practice that too knowing that the Holy Spirit is fully capable of meeting their needs through the cheerful non-compulsory giving of His indwelt members.
So, when it comes to ministry giving, the idea is to give as much as you can give cheerfully using the generosity of the New Testament churches as your example. The implication is that you should give a lot if by all means possible to do so cheerfully, making sure to meet everyone's needs, but there is no borderline amount where God approves or disapproves.
Hey, church ministers often preach about "living by faith" to their "laity" (ugh!), they should practice that too knowing that the Holy Spirit is fully capable of meeting their needs through the cheerful non-compulsory giving of His indwelt members.