Issue of Tithing.

[Tom Butler]

So, if tithing is not an NT principle, yet giving is, how much? When Paul used the phrase "as God has prospered you," it seems to me that he implied a percentage, or some ratio of income to giving. So, what is it? More than 10%? Less? It this a subjective judgment on our part? How do we determine if our giving is sufficient to be obedient, or falls short and becomes robbing God of what is His?

I'll be interested to read your views on what is an acceptable level of giving. In the meantime, until then, I'll fall back on the tithe as an an objective standard that I know was set by God for some folks.

Tom B.

 

[samarelda]

No Scripture here, but tithing just seems to be the right and natural thing to do. 10% is such a small amount of our money compared to all that God gives us above and beyond our paycheck. Our tithe always comes out first, no matter what our financial situation is.

By the way, ( I learned this at BJ) if every Christian would truly tithe and give their 10%, missionaries would never need to go on deputation. The churches could just afford to send them. God asks so little from us.

 

[drfuss]

samarelda wrote:
"By the way, ( I learned this at BJ) if every Christian would truly tithe and give their 10%, missionaries would never need to go on deputation. The churches could just afford to send them. God asks so little from us."


You should have learned "if every Christian would truly give, missionaries would never need to go on deputation. The churches could just afford to send them."

Christians should give freely and cheerfully, not tithe out of obligation.

 

[samarelda]

And we choose to tithe cheerfully and freely.

 

[AresMan]

You can choose whatever giving scheme you feel the Holy Spirit lead you to do. Just don't tell me that it is some command for the church if you can't support it with Scripture with correct context.

 

[MRCoon]

Funny I haven't reread every page but since I posted quite a bit on the first couple of pages and I didn't say or didn't see anyone mention tithe as command. Most of those that are for tithing think that we are to give beyond any standard established in the OT. What we have implied is that the OT established 10% as a must and those of us under the NT should go beyond this 10% base. If you can't give 10% how can you give like the NT when they gave all? None of my pastors have ever 'commanded' someone to tithe 10% but they have preached about giving and have used the tithe as a foundation and I concur with this assessment.

So for me 10% is a minimum and I think this is the difference between the OT and the NT!!

 

[Ransom]

Nicholas25 asked:

What do you think about Matthew 23:23 as it applies to the issue of tithing?

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. (Matt. 23:23)

Jesus was speaking to the Pharisees. They were teachers of the Law; they were under the Law; they supposedly loved the Law. Yet his point was that they mechanically followed the minutiae of the Law but ignored what the Law was really all about.

Similarly, elsewhere Jesus teaches the same thing with a different analogy: the Pharisees would drink through cheesecloth to strain out gnats (the tiny matters), but in doing so accidentally swallow a camel (the weightier matters). Certainly he wasn't teaching that Christians should strain their drinks to make sure they don't accidentally swallow bugs! Same thing.

Because he is holding men under the Law to the standards of the Law they claim to love, what Jesus says here about tithing doesn't apply to the Church which is not under the Law.

 

[HankD]

Acts 15
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
...
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Grace and faith do not require a tithe, but neither do they preclude it (if it is done in faith, cheerfully and not of necessity or grudgingly).

After all, everything we are and have is 100% His and that goes for far more than just our wallet.

...ye are not your own. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's...

HankD

 

[samarelda]

Originally posted by Ransom:
[QB] Nicholas25 asked:

What do you think about Matthew 23:23 as it applies to the issue of tithing?

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These things you ought to have done, , without neglecting the others. (Matt. 23:23)

Isn't Jesus saying here that although the Pharisees neglected the weightier matters of the law, they were right to be tithing?

 

[Ransom]

samarelda said:

Isn't Jesus saying here that although the Pharisees neglected the weightier matters of the law, they were right to be tithing?

Sure . . . as Pharisees, claiming to love Moses' Law. Jesus was holding them to their own standard of righteousness.

 

[Tom Butler]

Okay, one more time. If the tithe (10%) is not a NT standard, what is the giving standard?

2 Cor. 9:7 says, “Every man according as he purposed in his heart, so let him give: not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loves a cheerful giver."

Well and good. What we have here is giving as one purposes in his heart. Giving cheerfully. Not grudgingly or of necessity. (Does that mean he doesn't need to give?). I Cor 16:1-2--giving as God has prospered him. Just fine. How much?

Is a couple of bucks okay if we purpose in our heart, do it cheerfully and not because we need to? Is it left up to us to decide the percentage? The standard for deciding is pretty nebulous and subjective. If you love God more do you want to give more? But the widow and her mite drew praise from Jesus; the big givers did not.

I guess I like the good ol' 10 per because it's comfortable and familiar. Otherwise, trying to figure out what is a proper gift proportionate to my income would drive me crazy.

 

[AresMan]

Well and good. What we have here is giving as one purposes in his heart. Giving cheerfully. Not grudgingly or of necessity. (Does that mean he doesn't need to give?). I Cor 16:1-2--giving as God has prospered him. Just fine. How much?

Pretty much everyone knows how much he can actually give. It's a Holy Spirit issue. For those who have aught but just slip a dollar here and there know very well how much they can give and most likely feel bad about being stingy if they know they could just give more. Correct me if I am wrong, but I would believe that Christians who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit would feel good about giving a lot to help others. I know I always do. I don't mean pride, I mean that feeling you get when you know you did the right thing.

I guess I like the good ol' 10 per because it's comfortable and familiar. Otherwise, trying to figure out what is a proper gift proportionate to my income would drive me crazy.

Then praise God that you can give in a manner that is both generous and comfortable for you. I don't think anyone here is against anyone deciding to give a consistent 10%. We just don't appreciate when some people hold the spirituality of others hostage by pushing a certain giving threshhold for the church to be accepted by God when it is arguably not supportable by Scripture.

Unfortunately, I have attended three different churches regularly throughout my life and all three of them have pushed "tithing" as an absolute command to the New Testament church and have made comments similar to: "God will get your tithe one way or the other, whether it's in the offering plate or in the hospital." The pastor of the church I currently go to preached that tithing is an absolute command to the New Testament church that Christians must obey and had people pledge in the invitation that they will tithe for the rest of their lives. That is very scary to me. Since I believe that there is no supportable tithe mandate to the church, it's inherently wrong for a pastor to mislead people into a conviction of obedience to a phantom command and have them make a binding life-long decision. What happens if they find out that there really is no such command? It really wouldn't matter to them, because they are bound by a promise to God. This is not a recipe for cheerful giving to me.

 

[bubba jimmy]

Originally posted by MRCoon:
I want to be shown where it says we are not to follow the guidelines as set in the OT or The Law.

That sounds like the arguments made by the seventh day adventists.

 

[bubba jimmy]

Originally posted by Tom Butler:
Okay, one more time. If the tithe (10%) is not a NT standard, what is the giving standard?

If nothing else comes through from the NT, one thing does: there is no formula-based way to server or please God. Adhering to a formula is bondage. Everything is God's. Give it all to Him. When I eat my meal, I'm giving to Him because I live to serve Him another day. Jesus didn't ask the rich young man to sell 10% of what he had and give it to the church. He said sell ALL and give it to the poor. Though the rich young man was willing to leave everything to follow Jesus, he turned away saddened because this he would not do.

We need to stop trying to give people a formula that they have to meet in order to be pleasing to God. Give Him everything. He'll let you know how much you get to use for your own human needs.

That, I believe, is the giving standard. And giving it to God does not mean just putting it in an offering plated to be spent on expanding the church library.

In as much as ye did it to the least of these my brethren ye did it unto me????

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Amen Bubba.....actually I think the biblical standard would be to INDIVIDUALLY do what we can(as the Holy Spirit leads us)to help the poor,the fatherless,and the widows and also to take care of the CALLED men of God who labor in the Word and in prayer in our behalfs.Yes....thats right...we should take care of the preacher(s)...but ONLY if they are sound in FAITH and DOCTRINE. 2 Corinthians 9:7 IS the standard for New Testament Biblical giving."Tithing" was the Old Testament standard of giving established by God for the theocracy known as the nation of Israel.It was established primarily to maintain the Levitical priesthood since they received NO inheritance of land as they were set apart to take care of the temple and minister/labor in the Word."Tithing" is never mentioned as a component of the New Covenant or a part of the dispensation or age of GRACE.God owns it ALL folks.Thank Him for everything and GIVE as He leads you to.Part of the current problem is that most professing "christians" these days don't walk close enough with God to be able to discern how and when(and how much and to whom)they should give today.We all need to refocus our hearts on the Lord,pray,and get back into our Bibles.....and then...and ONLY then will we know the right way in this and other matters.Great is the Lord...and greatly to be praised.....!We must live by FAITH....that is the ONLY thing that pleases our God.Dependance on Him alone.

God Bless Ya'll,
Greg Sr.

 

[webdog]

Jesus didn't ask the rich young man to sell 10% of what he had and give it to the church. He said sell ALL and give it to the poor.

I believe this was hyperbole. If this were to apply to us today, we would all be naked and homeless.

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Brothers and sisters...in the interest of keeping this thread alive so others can learn and be instructed on how to avoid being placed under bondage to an Old Testament law that doesn't apply to New Testament Christians in this dispensation of Grace...uh...BUMP! God Bless Ya'll!

Greg Sr.

 

[HankD]

Is a couple of bucks okay if we purpose in our heart, do it cheerfully and not because we need to?

Yes.

Is it left up to us to decide the percentage?

Yes.

The standard for deciding is pretty nebulous and subjective.

Correct.

If you love God more do you want to give more?

NKJV 1 Corinthians 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

But the widow and her mite drew praise from Jesus; the big givers did not.

1 Samuel 16:7 ... for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

 

[Hope of Glory]

But, in Matthew 23, Jesus doesn't say that thithing is wrong.

 

[HankD]

But, in Matthew 23, Jesus doesn't say that thithing is wrong.

Yes, wrong for the Pharisees who were the object of His anger because of their priorities.

They were under the Hebrew Law of Moses but they were swallowing the camel (Torah) while straining at the gnats (mitzvoth).

My opinion of course.

HankD