It is as it was....or was it?

[Spirit and Truth]

S&T thinks to himself:

Diane is on this thread talking about swimming lessons.....hmmm......could it be that her warm and fuzzy no negative comments please passion thread died.....hmmmmmmmm.......... maybe she is bored........ hmmmmm

Did I type that out loud?

Or was I dreaming it?

 

[dianetavegia]

hmmmmmmmmm.......... no, Diane was responding to a question about why a lot of people aren't seeing 'The Gospel of John'. It wasn't released here. (yet??)

This thread won't die until you guys find something else to fight about.

Diane

 

[computerjunkie]

Originally posted by dianetavegia:
Now C.J.! You would begrudge me spending $50. for 20 swim lessons for my child when I have a horrendous fear of swimming pools and water? Two lessons a week for 10 weeks plus 10 open swim times versus buying a movie that is reported to be 'slow' and 'too long' that we might only watch one time?

Priorities, Diane, priorities...you have yours and I have mine!! But, would you have seen "the movie" numerous times if you had had to PAY for it each time? (And you may have...I don't know, and it's really none of my business!)

And yes, Blackbird... 50 smackers for a movie that is word-for-word scripture! Like I said, we all have our priorities!!

CJ

 

[dianetavegia]

Yep, my children, grandchildren and husband come first. They are my main ministry!

I paid for 4 tickets even tho my first viewing was paid for by the church. I took my best friend and then my husband. I'd see it again if the chance arose. My husband says he believes this is the most important movie ever made.

I think swim lessons, especially for a child of a parent who has a water phobia, is very important. It's also a good time for 'interaction' with other children and a different teacher. Us home schoolers catch a lot of slack for not providing that.

I'd gladly watch The Gospel of John if I could rent, borrow it or if it's placed in our church library. We have several different Jesus movies and just purchased 'An Easter Carol' Veggie Tales movie for Nick. I've never paid $50. for a video tho.

Diane

 

[computerjunkie]

It was a DVD, not a video, not that it matters much.

If you have paid for 4 tickets, you've almost spent as much as I paid for one DVD that is word-for word scripture! As I said...priorities...we each have different ones.

I'm glad you love "the movie", though. Really, I am. And I hope you get to see it again if you get the chance. Personally, I don't think this was the "most important movie" ever made, though...but you probably knew that already!!

Nite!
CJ

 

[MalkyEL]

Sharpsword wrote:
This movie is presented as good or Biblically sound. In evaluation, anything that presents the use of or is of the occult in a positive way or provides beliefs contrary to God's Word, or is presented by someone who rejects Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior---we cannot embrace as a source of doctrine or belief.

MalkyEL:
WOW! your post really knocked my socks off

I think that this is really the bottom line and where the discussion is at a critical point. Whether we choose to embrace the movie in spite of what God says about using occultish concepts or by making a choice to be obedient to His Word that cuts to the heart.

It reminds me of when Peter preached his first sermon on the day of Pentecost:

[please note: no artistic license, no mysticism, no co-redemptrix, no violence, no visuals, and . . . full resurrection power, not just 12 seconds - His Word is like pure silver refined 7 times - it does not need embellishments ] Do ya'all think God approved of the message?
3000 people got saved !!!!!!!

Acts 2
14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the Eleven, lifted up his voice and said to them, Men, Jews, and all who dwell at Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and listen to my words.
15 For these are not drunk as you suppose, for it is the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 "And it shall be in the last days, says God, I will pour out of My Spirit upon all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.
18 And in those days I will pour out My Spirit upon My slaves and My slave women, and they shall prophesy.
19 And I will give wonders in the heaven above, and miracles on the earth below, blood and fire and vapor of smoke.
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before that great and glorious Day of the Lord.
21 And it shall be that everyone who shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
22 Men, Israelites, hear these words. Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by powerful works, and wonders and miracles, which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know,
23 this One given to you by the before-determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you have taken and by lawless hands, crucifying Him , you put Him to death;
24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
25 For David speaks concerning Him, "I foresaw the Lord always before me, because He is at my right hand, that I should not be moved.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced and my tongue was glad; and also My flesh shall rest in hope,
27 because You will not leave My soul in Hades, nor will You allow Your holy One to see corruption.
28 You revealed to Me the ways of life. You will fill Me with joy with Your countenance."
29 Men, brothers, it is permitted to say to you with plainness as to the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, He would raise up Christ to sit upon his throne,
31 seeing this beforehand, he spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor would His flesh see corruption,
32 God raised up this Jesus, of which we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being exalted to the right of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured out this which you now see and hear.
34 For David has not ascended into the heavens, but he says himself, "The LORD said to my Lord, Sit at My right hand
35 until I place Your enemies as a footstool to Your feet."
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God made this same Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 ¶ And hearing this , they were stabbed in the heart, and said to Peter and to the other apostles, Men, brothers, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said to them, Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ to remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all those afar off, as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words he earnestly testified and exhorted, saying, Be saved from this perverse generation.
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized. And the same day there were added about three thousand souls.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by vaspers:
That's why I so fanatically love and cherish the beautiful music of married Catholic monk, John Michael Talbot: 99% pure scripture in the lyrics, usually Psalms or Sermons of Jesus.

This brother in Christ seems more Christian than all our supposed "evangelical leaders" put together.

Won't argue with you about the music of Talbot. One of my very favorites. Very gifted putting of scripture into song. I have many of his CD's.

But don't agree with the hyperbole about his being more "christian". If he were even a little astute, he would have distanced himself from the papists, for certain sure!

 

[vaspers]

Dr. Bob: Thanks for responding to my post about Talbot.

Odd silence from others. Maybe they never heard him.

I was a bit rash, but recall I said "supposedly evangelical leaders", meaning those who claim to be solid evangelical, but leave much to be desired. This was not clear in my post.

Well, a kindred soul on Talbot. That made my day, Dr. Bob. You have many of his CDs. That is amazing. I am stunned. Think I'll snack on small bowl of pew potato chips to celebrate. seriously.

Yes, his Catholicism is a bit strange, how he could love Jesus so much, and the Bible, yet fall for their lies and weird rituals, rosaries, "mass", Mary as co-redeemer, etc.

At least he does not sing of these false doctrines, and sticks to scriptural lyrics.

 

[blackbird]

We need to know a little something about singers---whether they be Southern Baptist, Methodist, or Roman Catholic like Vasper's buddy, Talbot

Although Talbot probably writes a good bit of the music/lyrics he plays----chances are, like most singers he most likely listens to thousands of demo's different record companies record or that individual writers record in hopes they(the writer) will get the singer(in this case, Talbot) to sing. Per chance there may be a few songs thrown in there on that CD you're listening to that Talbot is singing---thaaaaaaaaat he might not totally agree with the lyrics(maybe the lyrics ain't totally, totally RCC theology)but he sings them anyway---why?? Because the CD producer arranges it that way---IOW---when Talbot produces a CD---its really a producer producing it(in the long run)and Talbot gets up there and sings into the mike---

Too many times than none---major singers(like Talbot) will imply to their "Live" audiences that they are what is called "Non-Denominational!"

I was listening to a live recording by the group "Third Day" in which the lead singer is talking to the crowd right before the song begins---and he said something to the effect---"Its about time we tear down our Denominational Walls and come together!"----to me, thats just like the US Army saying something like---"We here at Fort Knox are gonna tear the fences and barricades down and post no guards! Ya'll can come and go at will!"---see what I mean??

Its alright to have Denominations---but I guarantee---I'm not gonna tear any fences down---don't get me wrong---I'll let visitors in---and I'll listen to Thrid Day and Talbot and all the others----but if they want in----they'll have to come in at my denominational "Check Point"---they'll have to know the "Password" and pass clearance--there'll be "Checks" and "Double Checks" there'll be lists at the Check Point of groups I can't let in ----see what I mean??

Your buddy,
Blackbird

 

[Spirit and Truth]

Diane:

This thread won't die until you guys find something else to fight about.

S&T:

Or, till those who support this movie actually open their Bibles, and use it, and it alone as the standard to judge whether this movie is acceptable by God's standard. Coffee's brewin !!

 

[Spirit and Truth]

The Passion movie is knockin em DEAD !!! Not only is God using it as the greatest evangelistic tool of the last 2000 years, but He is aslo using it to bring some of his people home?

Brazilian pastor dies watching "Passion of Christ" 

http://www.reuters.com/locales/newsArticle.jsp?type=entertainmentNews&locale=en_IN&storyID=4628071

Maybe they should start making it mandatory to have EMT people on staff at all theatres during the showing.

 

[LarryN]

S & T,

This may come as a surprise to you, but people actually die in many places: in their homes, in their cars, at the supermarket, working in their yards, while in airplanes, on the golf course, at their workplace, etc.

Why does it seem odd to you that someone could die in a theatre, especially among the tens of millions who have seen this film?

 

[sharpSword]

Hello, Spirit and Truth. Nice to see the thread back on topic. I have been thinking about the concept of Jesus being afraid of death or what He was going to go through. People claim He had to be afraid. They provide no Scriptures. Scriptures show He was burdened with deep sorrow and grief.

When we look at His purpose to overcome death... He could not have been afraid of that--He is eternal. However there are things that are conveyed in the Scriptures about what He did really feel and that is missed in the movie.

1. He despised the shame of the cross....yet people are loving watching that gore and brutality being depicted.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.

2. Darkness covered the earth while He sufferd on the cross...no one could really see what He was going through...they were standing afar...for the most part having abandoned Him, something which is not portrayed in the movie...rather we see mary and the gang right there supporting him, through all the scenes...and that goes against Scriptural and historical record.

3. He was an example for us of obedience--yet in the movie is protrayed weak and fearful and being drug along as if resisting His purpose.

Phil 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:
23 Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:
24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Since the movie does not portray who Jesus Christ is to those who do not know about Him, even to the words spoken by Him to Pilate...His divinity is removed, as is the Gospel. Many believe the dialogue in the movie is accurate.

From the Chicago Tribune article "The Jesuit scholar who translated `The Passion'" by Nathan Bierma, March 4, 2004:

"....Fulco left Greek out of "The Passion," substituting Latin... He also made mostly imperceptible distinctions between the elegant Latin of Pilate and the crude Latin of soldiers, thanks to an X-rated source he found on his shelf.
"I tracked down some obscene graffiti from Roman army camps," ... "Somebody who knows Latin really well, their ears will fall off. We didn't subtitle those words."

...I put in playful things which nobody will know. There's one scene where Caiaphas turns to his cohorts and says something in Aramaic. The subtitle says, `You take care of it.' He's actually saying, `Take care of my laundry.'...he incorporated deliberate dialogue errors in the scenes where the Roman soldiers, speaking Aramaic, are shouting to Jewish crowds, who respond in Latin..."there's an exchange where Pilate addresses Jesus in Aramaic, and Jesus answers in Latin. It's kind of a nifty little symbolic thing: Jesus is going to beat him at his own game," Fulco said. "One line [in that exchange] I kind of enjoyed is when Jesus says, `My power is given from above, otherwise my followers would not have allowed this.' ..."metromix.chicagotribune.com/movies/mmx-0403040033mar04,0,3912206.story?coll=mmx-movies_heds

Jesus did not say what Fulco and Gibson put in the movie. It was not that "My power was given from above", but that "MY Kingdom was not of this world." That difference changes perception of the Divinity of Christ:

John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Many view the gore, beatings and portrayed suffering as right on...and want to 'feel his pain'..but in Scripture we are not called to that.

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

 

[dianetavegia]

Spirit and Truth, your remark about others not using their Bibles can be construed as a personal attack or judging others. May I warn you to be careful how you 'judge' others and the terms you use?

You have YOUR convictions and we have ours. I do not judge you, in fact, I applaud you for following YOUR convictions. However, it is NOT your place to be the Holy Spirit in MY LIFE nor the lives of others. To imply those who support a movie are not 'in their Bible' is quite rude.

Thank you,
Diane
(A Moderator)

 

[vaspers]

blackbird:

don't make them "dumbnominational" walls too thick or your filters might accidentally block the King of Kings and Lord of Lords Himself!

I have very mixed feelings about dumbnominationalistic barriers or divisions.

I know Paul commanded us to NOT say "I am of Appollos" or "I am of Paul" or "I am of Cephas"

...and today he might say: don't say "I am of Calvin" or "I am of Spurgeon" or "I am of Menno Simons" or "I am of Wesley" or "I am of Falwell."

We are not to proclaim ourselves (our dumbnomination) but Christ Jesus the Lord.

As far as Talbot's lyrics and production of CDs goes, his liner notes make it very clear he is composing from his heart, that he distances himself from the CCM crowd, that he maintains control over the final product, and that he sincerely means everything he sings.

The shocking thing is how he has no interest in singing or composing overtly "Catholic" songs, though he did put out one CD of traditional "Catholic" songs, but I don't hear much "Catholicism" in it.

"We Are One Body" from that CD is really good.

I'm not trying to convert anyone into a Talbot fan, I just like pointing out how a Christian musician can stick to pure Biblical lyrics...

...like a filmmaker can stick to pure Biblical plot and dialogue when making a Jesus movie.

There is no excuse nor reason to deviate from scripture in sermons, witnessing, movies, songs, prayers, etc.

I'm sure you agree.

 

[Spirit and Truth]

SS:

3. He was an example for us of obedience--yet in the movie is portrayed weak and fearful and being drug along as if resisting His purpose.


S&T:

Excellent point SS. NIce to have you in the discussion. One of the things that troubled me, is the way that the other two "criminals" [Mel gave them names, not Biblical once again] looked like they had just come from a picnic, and then were nailed to the cross with very little blood to be seen. Roman law dictated that all who were sentenced to crucifixion were to be scourged first. How could they be so strong, and The King of the Universe appear to be so weak? Must be the new math.....

 

[Spirit and Truth]

Diane,

Since you are a moderator, I have a few questions. I have noticed that the passion banner is flying on the board above "the truth shall set you free" verse. Is the owner flying this because he likes the movie, or does Mel use this as a marketing tool while giving financial incentives, or is it something that is just randomly done by the server that hosts this forum.

 

[dianetavegia]

Webmaster chose to link to the banner of The Passion of the Christ because he liked the movie. Please see his posts under my warm and fuzzy thread about the movie. He also chose to link to the Constitution Party. Webmaster funds this board from his and his wife's income.

The location, just above the banner, is an open space where rotating things go and has no 'one upmanship' over the BB. logo or statement.

Diane

 

[Spirit and Truth]

Well, at least we know that the webmaster is reading this thread, so I remain hopeful.

Hopefully the Baptist leadership is reading it as well.

 

[bb_baptist]

Originally posted by Spirit and Truth:
Diane,

Since you are a moderator, I have a few questions. I have noticed that the passion banner is flying on the board above "the truth shall set you free" verse. Is the owner flying this because he likes the movie, or does Mel use this as a marketing tool while giving financial incentives, or is it something that is just randomly done by the server that hosts this forum.

I added the banner (free of charge) because I support the movie.

For a partial list of positives, see this link:
http://www.sbcbaptistpress.org/bpcollectionnews.asp?ID=41